Oleo - what melody version do you play actually?

[djg]

here you go Reg, it really helped to hum the melody to get the hits. Thoughts?

https://youtu.be/iPaNYD9MNKo?si=Fr_GffLxsXkAEiHj

more than 90% of your chords were just plain wrong (sorry!). also your voicings on the top strings are in the way of any soloist or singer. learn to walk before you run. study proper rhythms like the charleston (wes' favourite) or the anticipated ones and threes as played by red garland as your gateway into syncopated comping. get the barry galbraith comping book. study this stuff. it is close enough to scrapple/honeysuckle rose to be useful.

[pamosmusic]

So I made this on my way out to my real job yesterday … hence the decent shirt and clean hair.

Stay tuned to the end for my rich, beautiful baritone.

(click on 1 and 3, using the simplified Barry Harris changes on the A mostly)

Again … these are rootless shell voicings w third and seventh on the D and G strings. Theres an added note on the B or E string. This I probably a little more active than I am on average.

And for some background … I’ve said this before, but I got on this forum back when I was in high school and Jeff (Mr B) was on a huge rootless shell kick and put me onto these.

Im using them pretty percussively I guess but for an example of how beautiful and pianistic they can be, listen to literally anything Ed Bickert. At the Garden Party is a great one.

And to djg’s point about singers and soloists, another nice thing about these is how easily you can drop or add voices. Playing with a singer? Ditch the top voice and just put the bass note back in. Playing duo with bass? Drop the low note and put the top back in.

[Christian Miller]

I like two or three voices myself. These need not be shells, but quite honestly amazing how much you can get done with a sixth or seventh interval.

one mistake many learners make is to play every chord of rhythm changes. Dan Wilson talks about this. I like Dan.

rhythm changes is basically I V I V I IV I V. You have to learn comping vocab to make that sound hip, but if you keep the framework simple, you won’t need to change every chord. At least that’s what I’ve found.

AllenAllen - your version sounded more like a solo guitar performance than comping. Quite complete in itself. The aim of comping is not to pay complete music though - it’s to accompany a soloist. Tbh I find it hard to evaluate Reg’s videos as comping, because they is no soloist. The chords sound good but…. it’s how it sounds in context that’s the key thing. Notice how sparse and skeletal Dan’s playing sounds. Plenty of room for a soloist.

Good comping is like being a supporting character actor or something. It goes under the radar…

Record yourself comping and then play a solo on it. Then so it the other way around. You can also practice comping for yourself. A couple of notes go a long way. You have to listen to everything together and play what’s needed…

To be brutally honest a lot of guitar players don’t listen and are often locked into their pet voicings - either because that’s all they know, or worse (and I can be guilty of this) they want to be clever and play ‘their shot’ that they’ve worked out. being clever is never good comping, no matter how many music students think it is haha.

For example, a lot of guitarists don’t know how to make space for another guitar player! The upper notes of their voicings often go exactly where one would want to play a solo, on the G and B strings! That’s particularly acute with guitar because the instruments have the same tone colour. It’s also true of piano and guitar, where the sound of the instruments are often similar. Register problems like comping interfering with the solo line or the melody are really obvious in a way they wouldn’t be with sax or trumpet

Where and how you voice depends on who you play with. High voicings sound good to me with tenor sax for example. You have to be an orchestrator or arranger… it’s not about how many voicings you know, it how to marshal what you know for the best musical effect.

I don’t regard myself as a guru comper of anything, but I do find it one of the most interesting aspects of playing jazz.

[pamosmusic]

Dan! That dude is so good.

The little descending line he plays on the A section is so hip.

[Christian Miller]

The main things I focus on when comping are rhythm, register and tone colour tbh, with clear, effective chords… subbing out the harmony is further down the list tbh. I do play subs but they are sort of a natural part of my chordal vocab if that makes sense. I’m not overthinking it.

When playing old school rhythm I kind of want the rhythm to disappear into the mix but fill it out. I think of the stock in a soup.

[pamosmusic]

for my ears the comping needs to be simpler and more precise. it sounds too improvised.to me, if you get my drift. the rhythms as well as the voice leadings have a random quality to them. like going from Bb13 to Bbmaj in bar three. that was not pretty. or delaying chords instead of pushing them.

Yeah you’re probably not wrong. I like more action in the top voice when I can, but to Christians point, that’s the danger of trying to “comp” with no one there.

You tend to get a little high on your own supply.

[pamosmusic]

Except the Bb13. I love that shit and I will die on that hill.

[Reg]

Wow... everyone is now an expert on comping.

Hey Allen... I'm out for most of the day... but will make a very functional vid of Scrapple for you to work with and somewhat in your style.

Personally... I don't know any of the members who posted about your vid.... but I wouldn't pay that much attention to... I'm hoping they're trying to help. But there are reasons why guitars get gigs... LOL

Djg's examples are cool.... maybe he can comp... I don't know.... but good examples... but like I said.... you can't.... again Can't... become good trying to get everything together at the same time.....so stay with the style and type of tunes your working with. Most of what is being talked about are affects.... tools to be used when Comping.

Anyway... I'm somewhat assuming the teacher roll for you because .... 1st of all You seem like a pretty straight up person... and seem to like playing and want to get better. And the other detail is I have comping chops, and understand how to comp. I'll try and make vid later this afternoon... I'm gone most of day...

I'll record some example of playing tunes at gigs later also... probably tomorrows afternoon gig... it's casual... and another member from this forum might show up... and another friend , vibes player is subbing on drums, should be fun. Anyway it's not a rehearsed band... but lots of fun... so i can call some tunes that might help.

What Tonal feel were you trying to imply... Sounded really Gminish to V.... anyway Scrapple usually starts with Tonal reference of "F" the 1st 4 bars of G-7 to C7 should be or feel like a Subdom function....more like the IV chord of a blues.... can go anywhere... the V or the I. Or can be a Tonal Reference in it's self. Anyway

I like how you were using melody as reference.... that's how it's done. You already in a good direction.

Stick with me for a few weeks....or a month and you'll get better.

[pamosmusic]

“Stick with me, kid. You’ll go places.”

[pamosmusic]

Djg's examples are cool.... maybe he can comp... I don't know.... but good examples...

He can. He has records in the world.

I'll record some example of playing tunes at gigs later also...

Actually that would be great. With a group or a duo kind of setting?

[Christian Miller]

@AllenAllen I will say by practicing comping, you may be already doing better than a lot of people…. Given comping is mostly what we do on gigs…. Compare to the what we spend the lions share practice time on.

I may be wrong, but I think given the choice between a great comper who is a middling soloist and a middling comper who is great soloist, most bandleaders would choose the former.

Of course great players are masters of both.

[pamosmusic]

I may be wrong, but I think given the choice between a great comper who is a middling soloist and a middling comper who is great soloist, most bandleaders would choose the former.

I had a lesson w Peter Bernstein where he lit me on fire for trying to play too many chords. And he said if he found someone who had a firm grasp of shell voicings, did some tasteful side slipping, and had good time, he’d hire them any day of the week.

Did I learn this lesson?

Of course not, Christian. Of course not.

[AllanAllen]

I just memorized the iReal changes. Like it or not it’s the gold standard for hacks playing jazz, which I am.

[AllanAllen]

DJG - Thanks for those examples. I posted the changes I used for Scrapple. Can you elaborate more than “this is wrong.” That’s honestly worthless to me.

AllenAllen - your version sounded more like a solo guitar performance than comping. Quite complete in itself.

Christian, I recorded another take of Oleo last night and tried to play the melody and it was too busy. So I agree here. I watched that video you posted before but didn’t stick with it because I’m not looking to play fast. I put it in the “not yet” pile…. Right next to Donna Lee and Giant Steps lol.

[pamosmusic]

DJG - Thanks for those examples. I posted the changes I used for Scrapple. Can you elaborate more than “this is wrong.” That’s honestly worthless to me.



Christian, I recorded another take of Oleo last night and tried to play the melody and it was too busy. So I agree here. I watched that video you posted before but didn’t stick with it because I’m not looking to play fast. I put it in the “not yet” pile…. Right next to Donna Lee and Giant Steps lol.

As for the changes … I think it was more that the chords and rhythms you were playing didn’t reflect the changes well, rather than that you were playing incorrect changes. Thats probably why he suggested starting simple with some rote rhythms.

judging by his response to the third measure of my rhythm changes, I’d probably trust him on that point (if in fact that is his point).

As for the Dan Wilson video … I think that’s one of those things that’s true all the time and is just more true the faster you get.

[Christian Miller]

I just memorized the iReal changes. Like it or not it’s the gold standard for hacks playing jazz, which I am.

things to bear in mind

the first four bars are an embellishment of C7
and the rest is an embellishment of F with the last bar pointing us back to the C7

Now practice in all twelve and apply to other situations

OH btw the a section is honeysuckle rose in the usual key. The rhythm changes in F (not Bb)

[Christian Miller]

I had a lesson w Peter Bernstein where he lit me on fire for trying to play too many chords. And he said if he found someone who had a firm grasp of shell voicings, did some tasteful side slipping, and had good time, he’d hire them any day of the week.

Did I learn this lesson?

Of course not, Christian. Of course not.

over the past few years I’ve developed massively in terms of my harmonic vocabulary and command of voicings and counterpoint.

However I have moved from playing 200 shows a year to around, err, 20.

Coincidence?

[rpjazzguitar]

There are a lot of breakfast cereals, but only one has Snap, Crackle and Pop.

Which brings me to comping.

Reg's comping always has full bore S, C & P, to my ears.

Jim Hall, whose comping is also exquisite, seems to do it a different way.

I can't boil either one down to a set of rules. It's more an issue of vocabulary and time-feel. The vocab involves choice of voicing, chord sequence and reharm. So, in Oleo, you hear Reg play some jazzy sounding voicings (most with 4 notes but some with 3). You hear reharm (like G7b13 to Gb13) and as the choruses progress you would hear different chord sequences. Time feel is obvious. It's a great way to comp.

Jim Hall is sparser, typically, and, arguably, a little less driving. He arrives at the top of the mountain from a different trail.

So, for the aspiring comper, I'd suggest watching Reg523's videos on youtube, slow them down if necessary, and learn one tune at a time. It's a complete package, but if I was trying to temporarily deconstruct it for practice, I'd say to try to nail the feel first.

[AllanAllen]

could you name each voicing you're playing and the reason whyyou're playing it? i'll be happy to comment. for ex:

why a pure Gm chord on beat one instead of Gm7. why the C7 with the double 7th and no voice leading? you seem to like that voicing. in bar 4 you play Eb7 into Am7 where one would expect a C7. you then play a F7 where we'd expect the tonic. it sounds like you might have lost two beats there, but you do that again so it seems to be intentional. the turnaround to the second A is very unclear and somewhat random

what is lacking imo are the standard II-V chord movements that everybody knows and uses for reasons. xxx12 11 10 into xx 10 9 8 x is just not good. that#swhy i recommend the galbraith. bread and butter stuff like

3x33xxx into 3x23xxxx,

10 8 10 xx into x10 8 9 xx into x 8 7 9 xx into x 8 7 7 xx,

xx8 7 6 5 into xx 8 7 5 5.

that is the basis that you need to have down cold. same with the standard rhythms. post a red garland version (anticipated 1 and 3) with the basic shell voicings, with or without the root. work from there. walk before you run.

Gm because it sounded better going to C7 than the xx3333 Gm7. C7 with 2 7ths, your right, I like that voicing that's why I picked it. Bar 4 I was thinking C7(with spice) to Fmaj7 to F7. xx5666 xxx555 xxx545.

Maybe I'm putting too much cleverness into it.

[AllanAllen]

Here's a video comping more basic voicings on 1 &3 like the Red Garland example.

[pamosmusic]

Here's a video comping more basic voicings on 1 &3 like the Red Garland example.

Nice. Out of curiosity what voicings are you going through when you’re working on this stuff?

R 3 7 shells are kind of the bread and butter

(a little different than what I was talking about earlier)

[AllanAllen]

Nice. Out of curiosity what voicings are you going through when you’re working on this stuff?

R 3 7 shells are kind of the bread and butter

(a little different than what I was talking about earlier)

Basic stuff, 7th chords, maybe a 9th chord in the bridge. I usually like to sub 6th for major 7th, but I left that out with the last video.

I specifically used the Gm7 and C7 DJG suggested.

I have a lot of grips making them up as I learn songs, usually I’ll look for an inversion close to where I am. I’ve forgotten more chord grips than I’ll ever know.

[pamosmusic]

Basic stuff, 7th chords, maybe a 9th chord in the bridge. I usually like to sub 6th for major 7th, but I left that out with the last video.

I specifically used the Gm7 and C7 DJG suggested.

I have a lot of grips making them up as I learn songs, usually I’ll look for an inversion close to where I am. I’ve forgotten more chord grips than I’ll ever know.

By voicings, we usually mean the arrangement of notes rather than the notes themselves. So like … how are GBbDF arranged on the fingerboard, rather than which extensions and stuff you’re using.

That might be something to get into. There are a pretty narrow set of voicings that make up a huuuuuuge chunk of the vocabulary most guitarists use. So that’s usually not so heavy a lift as it seems.

Shell voicings and rootless shell voicings, drop 2, drop 3.

Others out there too, but that’s so much of what people are using. Just the 1 3 7 shells sound so good. I could probably spend a lifetime on those and keep sounds betting.

[pamosmusic]

God this thread is just reminding me of all the crap I should be practicing.



Who knows. Maybe I actually will.

[AllanAllen]

Man, I don’t know all the names.

x5423x is D, xx777x is D, xx12 11 10x is D, 9x777x is D. All fair game to me.