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Hi all,
I am struggling through Stella By Starlight and it got me thinking that it's unusual twists and turns seemed to foreshadow the more abstract and less functional composing of players like Wayne Shorter in the 60s. I was interested to know of other standards that may have been inspirations for this type of composing as I really love the edgier more ambiguous sound of this style. Sorry if not very clear I am not an expert on terminology!
Thanks in advance!
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10-31-2020 12:02 PM
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Your post is clear..and yes the term "jazz" began to "evolve" ..I think with the release of Kind of Blue by Miles..the influence it had and still does have on musicians and their approach
to composition and improvisation.and there are many composers that have infused classical folk and rock in their work..Carla Bley is one composer who has influenced me in this type of setting
the traditional road map to harmonic structures in a tune were replaced with harmony created by non-diatonic scales and chord structures..and the standard cadence/turn around was gone..
the young composers from the "miles school"..Hancock Corea McLaughlin Shorter and many others created new approaches to music in general and the term jazz was in question by many..
Miles has be said he didnt like the term jazz..perhaps is was too confining.. I agree..If Bitches Brew is being labled "jazz" ..then why not the the works of Guthrie Govan. (and some of Frank Zappa)
His music is beyond the safe label of rock..his solos are more "jazz/fusion" and his harmonic map is a composite of many complex scales and chord structures that do not follow given rules
Yet it is innovative and has influenced many new players to study theory and harmony in order to understand it better ..in order to go beyond the "rules" so to speak
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Originally Posted by wolflen
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Check out songs like
Skylark
Sweet Lorraine
Upper Manhattan Medical Group
Gloria's Step
Along came Betty
enough work for all through the winter ....
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That’s a jolly interesting question OP!
Jazz has never really been entirely functional, being as it is the layering of new melody on existing songs.
I would say Stella is actually hyper functional, especially if you listen to the original soundtrack version which is basically Rachmaninov. What was unusual about the tune was that originally started with a Dbo7 chord (with an A in the melody) ....
Anyway, jazz musicians have a habit of exploring the colours latent in functional progressions. You can trace this back to Louis.
Django for instance had a habit of writing not really functional progressions. The middle 8 of Douce Ambience is a good example, as are the changes of its intro.
A tune like Out of Nowhere for instance, despite being completely functional in the sense of 19th century harmony gives jazz musicians a lot of opportunity to explore that Eb7 chord in the key of G in its own right rather than simply as a functional harmony used as a colourful harmonisation of the note F. That in itself opens up the door to less functional harmony for jazzers.
Ellingtons progressions, while often functional were also highly coloured, as were Strayhorn’s, who seems to have introduced some of the more complex tonalities associated with jazz. You can’t quite call Chelsea Bridge functional, even though much of it is. UMMG is another one. So I think any discussion of this would have to take in Billy Strayhorn.
That Bbm Abm move would later show up in Horace Silver’s Nica’s Dream.
Bop on the other hand simplified the harmonic palette down to a fairly small number of core moves, most obviously the II-V-I
So, it feels that after Kind of Blue you start to get tunes with modal or vamp sections that offset more traditional changes such as This I Dig, and Yes or No and so on.
And Coltrane introduces less functional changes with the album Giant Steps. Tunes like Naima are still functional to some extent, but disguised.
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Miss Jones bridge inspired Coltrane changes.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by Litterick
the movie Monterrey Pop..Jimi Hendrix is playing Wild Thing..not even in the far away jazz universe..but its Jimi..so he plays "Strangers in the Night" in his solo over the basic chords..
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Still trying to work out what Guthrie has to do with electric era Miles Davis. But then people seem to think that music is Fusion.
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Originally Posted by Litterick
For instance; it’s stylish not to play the function. Don’t play the 3rd on the dominant and that kind of thing. conversely 7ths on tonic major chords not resolving upwards as expected.... weakening the conventional functional roles of the notes as they would be understood in the Western classical tradition.
It’s something that started early. Louis does this.
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Check out some of the things Tristano was doing in the 40s
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I always feel I should know more Tristano than I do, but when I think of Lennie, I think of very complex, tonality stretching bop heads written on absolute bog standards like All of Me and so on. Did he write some non functional chord progression type tunes? (bearing in mind non functional is jazz slang, for 'uh, that's not a II-V-I?')
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I dont think of Miles electric era as fusion..and now that label is not correct-very few still use it. I'm not sure what that style would be called if it were new today..
I just hear young musicians pushing hard as they can to reach another "level" ..something that has not been done before..I hear hints of it being born but its not fully realized yet
If it is being labeled as jazz it may take alot longer to reach the general public.. It is too energetic to be pop/soft jazz..and way beyond rock-even progressive rock to be called that..and just saying this
the labels show their worn ability to describe the music..and put it in a "genre" so it can be marketed
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by christianm77
It is also fascinating to learn the interesting harmonic games composers use to keep us interested and challenged. From what you say this has been going on a lot earlier that Stella!
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Originally Posted by Pycroft
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I am very much drawn to standards which allow a variety of options as far as creating tension and resolution. I had some fascinating replies to my chord question about Stella. While all standards offer almost infinite options I do find some lend themselves more to certain ambiguous note choices and turnarounds than others. Sometimes I feel a bit sacrilegious (or arrogant?) imposing spicier choices on some older songs while others songs seem to welcome it!
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Originally Posted by wolflen
I just don’t think his approach to music would fit with that very open 70 Miles stuff. Really that music is often loved by people who despise fusion generally. Even the punks liked it....
Miles actual 70s guitar player, Pete Cosey often gets passed over. Really no one played like him; a true sonic successor to Hendrix. And McLaughlin too actually.
You are looking towards players like Henry Kaiser who was massively influenced by both. A road less followed in jazz rock perhaps?
Lee Ranaldo or Thurston Moore I could hear playing with 70s Miles more than Guthrie.
These days fusion guitar is tidy, well rehearsed music used to demonstrate gear. Perhaps Guthrie has a more visceral side in him. If so I would love to see it.
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Babaluma,
Interesting question that no doubt has some merit. I think we also have to
consider that from the beginning, jazz musicians were also composing original tunes. Their relationship with standards was that of reinterpreting them in a manner similar to how they engaged with original jazz tunes.
So in my opinion, it is not any of the American songbook composers compositions themselves that moved the music in these directions
but rather the creativity of jazz improvisers and composers.
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I would say some of Bill Evans work are examples of early non-functional harmony or at least hints to it. Very Early, Time Remembered or Blue in Green for example. But maybe those tunes came after Wayne Shorters compositions?
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Another player/composer that came to mind after re-reading this is Alan Holdsworth - where did he go for his harmonic progressions ?
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Originally Posted by Mikko Hilden
‘Jazz harmony’ per se was really popularised by Bill Evans. (I have mixed feelings about ‘jazz harmony’, but that’s another thread haha.) Bill is the basis of so much.
Anyway - ON PAPER Blue and Green is completely standard harmony except for one small twist; the last two bars. The voice leading is interesting.
ON PAPER Very Early is pretty functional actually; a great many V7-I and aug 6 cadences. There are a couple of moments where it breaks with it.
Time remembered is more interesting and unusual. I don’t really know this tune. Good opportunity to get into it and reflect.
But these things functional and non functional; they are kind of silly terms. It often comes from looking at things in terms of chord symbols. In fact no Tin Pan Alley arranger would ever voice lead the way Bill does on any tune..... Jazz is so much about weakened functional relationships. The standard is just a matrix for superimposed colour.
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In other words functional harmony in jazz is a lie told by chord symbols
The realisation I have come over the past 25 or so years is that Jazz is poorly understood as a historical musical legacy, theoretically. Perhaps that’s a good thing, but people are under the impression it is well understood.
The best musicology done on the music seems to abandon that frame of it having to make sense of it from a neat theoretical point of view and focus on the practices and sociology of the music.
And for me one of the joys of studying the music is the realisation of how specific and individual each musician is in their approach, which nurtures a revulsion at the standardisation of jazz pedagogy. (See Ethan Iverson haha.)Last edited by christianm77; 11-08-2020 at 12:16 PM.
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Originally Posted by gitman
That and the relaxation of the role of the leading tone.... pretty much kills functional harmony...
This is less obvious in earlier jazz because the rhythm section is often playing a vanilla version of the changes. BTW we talk about Bill Evans we have to also talk about Ahmad Jamal who started the ball rolling in the previous decade as I understand it. A huge influence on Miles.....
Replacing rhythm guitar with drums in the piano trio probably helped too. In earlier jazz the fact that the music isn’t really functional is kind of disguised by the rhythm section often expressing the vanilla changes, which can fool you into thinking the soloing is necessarily built on those changes.
Another player/composer that came to mind after re-reading this is Alan Holdsworth - where did he go for his harmonic progressions ?Last edited by christianm77; 11-08-2020 at 12:52 PM.
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How about a song like Poinciana? This song was written in the 40s. I find it unique for the era since it doesn't use II\V\I or even non-functional dom7 chord progressions. I play it as:
Gmaj7 (I), Dm7 (V), Cm6 (IV), Gmaj7
Cm6, Dmaj7, Cm6, D9sus
This progression uses only the standard blues chords of I, IV, V, but with 3 different variations of the V.
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