-
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Musical form - WikipediaLast edited by cosmic gumbo; 10-21-2019 at 09:47 PM.
-
10-21-2019 07:36 PM
-
Originally Posted by grahambop
The NYC wedding musicians of my youth could all do that. Any song, any key, no change in the bored expression on their faces.
Intermediate level players can probably do that, but with a more limited palette of sounds. So, for example,they can probably play a jazz blues in any key, or rhythm changes, but they're going to struggle with Stella.
Some years back I was in a class run by Guinga, the Brasilian master. He likes American standards and can play them. Key doesn't matter to him, so, at one point, he started playing Stella in F. Not such a huge change from the usual Bb.
There were two well known players in the class. One name most people here would know. The other isn't a household name, but he's Professor of music. Neither one of them got it on the first chorus.
I doubt they were unaware of form, in any manifestation. Rather, they were probably challenged by the same thing as everybody else (not counting those NYC wedding players). They could hum the song well enough in F, and they knew the sound of the harmony, but their fingers couldn't immediately find the right chord. Most likely, they couldn't recognize the intervals readily enough. Of course, Stella is not such an easy tune, but, on the other hand, it's well known and oft-played. Other explanations are possible -- maybe it would have been easier in, say E, because there might be less confusion with the chords they were accustomed to in Bb. Or?
What I came away with is that those NYC wedding guys functioned at a high level and that maybe not every successful jazz musician can do that as well.
-
Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
I'll try and keep it very simple and slow.... Forms are constant space... bars are organized. There is more going on with Form than just... it's a 12 bar blues. Or it's AABA.
Keeping it simple, and slowwwwww, sorry, not everyone plays the same changes over and over. When you look and hear changes and use Form as means to develop function, (improve)... Simple example... Joy Spring is just AABA... the second "A" modulates up to Gb... so maybe after taking a chorus or two, or after the 1st soloist... maybe take the last "A" in the relative Min. Dmin. so last "A" might be.
/ D-9 Bb13 / E-7b5 A7alt./ D-7 Bb13 / G-7 C7 /
/ F6/9 Bb13 / E-7b5 A7alt / D-9 G13 / G-7 C7alt /
So I'm using simple borrowing to improve with Form and make tune more interesting, I mean when you play... St Thomas... do you just stay in C for ever.... You don't play with the simple 16 bars and subdivide into two 8 bar sections and expand the changes... maybe even keep going. Try playing a section in again relative minor... maybe even parallel.
Simple point... I use the form of tunes for organization of improv also. Maybe even get out of that vanilla box.
As far as how Form can be used to remember tunes.... if you understand analysis, of which Form is the starting point. Your able actually know, from jazz common practice where the harmony is going... the chords. So rather than just hearing a chord and reacting or recognizing it etc... you can become aware of what's coming, be able to play longer chord phrases that have rhythmic organization etc... maybe.
I mean, it sounds like rp can just just hear something and then he has it...that's cool and not that many guitarist are able to do that. But many times when your in the moment... your late especially when your trying to lock in as a rhythm section. Which is from using form to organize rhythmic patterns and what your playin with those rhythmic patterns. . yea longer rhythmic patterns.
It's not like I figured this BS out. I just use it.
-
Form for me... it's like I play a tune I never heard before, I listen to the musicians, and the least thing I can do is figure out the form. Even if I'm not sure of harmony, at least I know the structure, I can improvise. Start and finish a solo in the right place is sometimes a saving grace. I don't know how many times I played a tune on a jam, not knowing it well, playing some crap in the middle not knowing what Im doing, but if I ended on the right spot, people dig it!
There is nothing worse than see someone playing a solo and it might sounds decent even, but they would be lost in a form and finish in the middle of the bridge or something, and musicians looking like wtf!
But even if I know the tune well, the form defines targets for the solo, there is so much more freedom than if just thinking chord to chord. Sometimes the solo builds itself up in your head before you even get there. Hearing the form is almost more important than hearing changes for me. Maybe that's what Reg is talking, maybe not, but that's my 2 yuan.
-
Originally Posted by Reg
-
Originally Posted by Reg
Hesitation is a killer ....
-
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
-
I can't edit the text to split it... sorry.. don;t know why but it comes all in one piece (no form)))
-
Of course when you improvise, your cadences can happen elsewhere
-
Originally Posted by Jonah
-
Originally Posted by djg
Part of the complications are just... generally I don't think of playing through tunes, melody and changes as the goal.
Jonah... yea, cadences define space, and there are many levels and types of cadences, or methods of defining the shape, the forms within forms. I think most guitarist think like performers, play the tune is the goal and entertainment. Many players are composers using performance to realize live composition... another thread.
hey rp... you must love Joe Henderson compositions, Recordame, Inner urge, Punjab etc.... Don't get called enough anymore. years ago I used to perform with Warren Gale and the Joe Henderson Big Band book. some cool arrangements.
-
If you were to walk into a jam session pretty much anywhere in the world, where the level is somewhere on the spectrum from reasonably capable to pro, you need to know some tunes. You can get away with not knowing and/or ireal-proing your way through a few, but it's gonna suck if nothing that gets called in the course of a couple of hours is familiar. With that I'd say all of the tunes on rpjazzguitar's list are necessary, but I think the minimum list is longer than that. We all have one or two we'd add that are not there -- I'll throw in Night and Day and Summertime. I'd also say it's not just a matter of knowing rhythm changes and blues in multiple keys -- you need to know some actual blues and RC heads (IGR and Oleo, at a minimum).
To the point about this being an old fogies' list and the question of whether anybody really like these songs -- I'm in my late 50s, which probably sounds pretty deep into old fogie territory to some, but I grew up entirely within the rock/soul era. None of these songs were popular in my formative years. To the extent I'd even heard them it was in passing watching the Andy Williams show at my grandparents house. Gershwin, Cole Porter, Rogers & Hart, Irving Berlin, etc., this wasn't even the popular music of my parents' generation (my mother is 83). So when I started playing jazz, a lot of this music was in fact either entirely new to me, or stuff that I was prejudiced against for generational reasons. For most of the people I know, one of the great things about getting into jazz is discovery of this material, and the parallel discovery that what you thought was really square is actually really hip. It messes with and opens your mind. This phenomenon has happened to multiple generations over the last 40-50 years.
So I think the idea of "well jeez, this is old stale stuff nobody listens to anymore. Does anybody really want to walk into a club and hear this stuff?" is a complete red herring. Yes, people want to hear this stuff because either they've never heard it before, or it's somewhere in the deepest recesses of their awareness and hearing it anew triggers their "whoa, that's pretty cool!" neurons. And I'm not just saying this to justify my own interest in this repertoire. These are reactions I routinely get from listeners at gigs and jams.
John
-
Originally Posted by John A.
-
If there is no local jazz scene in your region, you don't have to be embarrassed about not memorizing all tunes, you use a fakebook. No shame, no snobbiness. Learning the tunes that you decide you need to know, not what a bunch of other out of work jazzers think everyone should know. You might actually play some music from the last 20 years...unless you like your jazz stuck in the past...that's okay too...
-
Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
Maybe not everyone does feel embarrassment specifically, but I think in almost any setting (music or otherwise), most people walking into a situation where they're not able to keep up, and where this inability affects others' enjoyment of the experience, feel something negative. That has been my experience in myself and observation in others.
JohnLast edited by John A.; 10-23-2019 at 10:47 AM.
-
I've hosted and run jazz jams... years of covering. Different locations, different levels players etc.. The goal is to help players learn how to perform jazz. If they don't know the tune or can't read a chart or arrangement. Why are they even up there. But I generally cue and keep all on stage together. The point of these sessions are usually up front house band plays some cool tunes... at a professional level, then it gets opened up. Some of sessions are really for pros, who's in town or has the night off, trying to get players for gigs, trying to get gigs. And others are just way to help fill the seats.
So there are differences... sometimes performing jazz is just playing through the tunes, pretty vanilla jazz performance. All good. But some jazz players don't just know jazz tunes, they can actually interact and raise the level of performance... they know how to perform jazz tunes. This can be with any aspect of the tune. So maybe... like another level of knowing the tunes is how to develop the music in jazz style. Take time... there is double time right simple way of changing the rhythmic feel of tune. Usually also effects changes etc. Or there is metric modulations, direct, like directly jumping into different time.... 4/4 to 3/4 etc. More common would be transitional metric modulations, like you in 3/4 and start accenting dotted quarters to create a 2 feel. Now double time that 2 feel now your in 4/4/ feel but within the same physical space as the starting 3/4. Or vice versa. So this is pretty common developmental jazz approach when performing jazz tunes. There is more to metric modulations, but same approach.
You can also use this approach with harmony, either through using Function... or just common modulations or even just using subs. Like playing a blues...in Bb. so maybe use bIII as sub for the IV chord.
/ Bb13 D-7b5 / F7#9 .../ Bb13 D-7b5 / Bb13...D9 /
/ Db9 Ab7b13/ Db9..../ Bb13......
some turnaround...... so there are a million choices, and the tune would help choose... but you would be using Harmony, the changes.... and all of this is using the form of the tune as guideline for organization.
I know this is pretty simple... and you could probable just use your ears to etc... to play. But personally and with many jazz players these are pretty common aspects of knowing tunes, well maybe knowing how to play jazz tunes.
-
Originally Posted by John A.
-
To be honest if you know twenty tunes you are passionate about and play the **** out of that’s not a bad thing. Of course knowing more is better, but I think life is too short to play tunes you don’t feel an attraction to. At least for jazz money.
-
Hey guys, please don't tell anyone outside the forum, but I still know, play, and like Misty. Sometimes you just have to let everything out.
-
Originally Posted by djg
-
Learning tunes, my primary reason is to be able to play with other folks with no rehearsals, get gigs, get paid. I really like maybe 1 standard out of 3 on average, and given a choice would spend most time on creating my own shit without worrying how many tunes I have to know to qualify as a jazzer.
I most definitely wouldn't spend money going to see people playing standards all night, however good they are at improv. So knowing as many tunes as possible good for professional reasons, not much else.
-
Originally Posted by gitrman
-
Originally Posted by lawson-stone
John
-
Originally Posted by lawson-stone
-
Originally Posted by Reg
Anything to destroy the music, that's their motto...
Autumn Leaves (Fingerstyle Chord Melody)
Yesterday, 11:56 PM in Improvisation