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Sorry, my wording was a little vague, I was referring to the show and movie ATTYA was in, not the Sound of Music, which, of course, was a big hit. Hammerstein is still a giant with Broadway fans. One of his grandsons is a friend of mine, he's working on developing a museum at the farmhouse where he lived.
Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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10-17-2019 02:51 PM
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So true; My two main hobbies are jazz guitar and American studio-era films (films from 1929 - 1968). As you says most original versions of songs that are now jazz 'standards' were show tunes that were stiff and corny. Much of the stiffness was due to the lyrics and the fact that the music was structured to 'support' said lyrics. Playing these tunes in a instrumental version and adding that swing-feeling is what makes them jazz. Originally Posted by christianm77
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But for jazz these changes that combine ii-v's sequences with 'key shifts' (which seem pretty basic and boring as a composition to me) can be challenging and interesting to navigate through in imvrovization I suppose...Like here))) Originally Posted by JGinNJ
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Curiously, my band was hired by a college fraternity to play a few weeks back. I didn't think that we had the repertoire. I was wrong. The young people were up at the stage mouthing the lyrics to all the standards. I was shocked. Originally Posted by zdub
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. Originally Posted by Greentone
Interesting!
I got into many standards by accident. There were two streams in my jazz development. One was an overnight jazz radio show while I worked the graveyard shift for 17 years. Some vocals but mainly instrumental jazz, with a blues hour thrown in at 4 AM. That was the 'main stem' of my jazz education. (That, and the reading and record buying it inspired.)
The second stream was a college buddy who got divorced, later re-married and somewhere along the line became obsessed with Sinatra. I heard (and overheard) a lot of Frank's best from the '50s. And I thought, "these are some great tunes and the lyrics are clever."
When I choose standards to play now, it's just tunes I like. I don't care how sophisticated or important or groundbreaking or old-fashioned they are. I just care whether I want to sing along when I hear them. That's why I'm not at all bored with "All of Me", or "Don't Get Around Much Anymore." And it's why I don't much care for "ATTYA" or "Autumn Leaves" ---I don't care to sing them or to hear them sung---but I know both and realize the value of learning them and knowing ways to play over those changes and feels. O, and I love fun novelty tunes, which are often played over rhythm changes (or similar "vamps").
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Well, it's notable how the pedagogy has shaped the jazz repertoire. Educators chose tunes with interesting changes, the OP is a typical list. Students could then take the already established practice of transplanting transcribed ii-V and ii-V-I licks into these tunes. Lots of players (including this one) have learned this way, but to my mind it's had a number of effects, most unintentional.
1) estranging jazz repertoire further from the musical tastes of non jazz listeners, as most college grad jazz players don't actually know that much of the GASB other than not terribly popular tunes like Stella and ATTYA.
2) focussing jazz education on a study of harmony
3) downplaying the variation of melody as a valid improvisational technique, and the valuing of melody as both a resource and thing of beauty in its own right.
4) not representing enough typical repertoire that a reasonably intelligent musician could start to abstract their own harmonic modules from the songs. OTOH the diversification of jazz harmony has made it harder to teach, especially as many musicians are kind of eager to play 'hipper tunes'
5) confusing the nature of jazz raw material historically
6) elevating the real book and lead sheets as a primary source
7) Not teaching diminished harmony, as dim harmony is underrepresented in the examples presented.
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Yes! Originally Posted by christianm77
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I wonder how many of the Great American Song Book tunes were considered corny and were actually embarrassing to know by real music lovers at the time.
At least until they were elevated by Jazz legends.
May be I'm projecting from the 21st century musical landscape.
But I mean, really, Fly me to the Moon. Come on.
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christian 77, "elevating the real book and lead sheets as a primary source" ... This is maybe the greatest shift over the last 40 years. Musicians/bands now know the lead sheets from the 5th edition of the Real Book, which has become the backbone somehow of the small group jazz industry--such as it is.
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Frank Zappa called,
he says 'include Midnight Sun.'
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Apologies in advance for a threat hijack ...
I keep thinking about my recent week in NYC. I heard Robert Glasper at the Blue Note, one show out of a 52 show residency. Tuesday night and the place was packed.
Acoustic piano instrumentation, plus an electronic kb on the piano and a fourth player, playing laptop computer triggering sound effects and spoken word clips.
80 or 90% funk/hiphop rhythms. Could barely tell when one song ended and another began. Couldn't tell what was rehearsed and what was not. He played a barely recognizable version of Stella and a few GASB quotes -- as if to prove he could do it. But, mostly, harmonies were simple vamps. I didn't focus on what scales/modes/whatnot he was employing in his solos. I did notice that I could feel something.
This was a re-imagining of jazz trio (or quartet, I guess). It was great and the crowd was enthusiastic.
Sometimes it feels like on-line forums focus on all the skills you need to be a top flight jazz musician around 1963 ...
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What do we mean by "know a tune" -- have the melody and changes memorized; or not getting lost reading it; or being able to transcribe on the spot in any key; or what?!
There's sax player in my town who is 100 years old, and he gigs several times a week/month -- he's played with everyone who's anyone, and he's a gracious, cool cat! If you call out any of these tunes people are listing here, he'll just ask, "What key?" and then he'll play it, and he'll tear it up! If you call out anything post-1955, however, he won't know the head, but he'll still tear up the soloing!
I saw Abercrombie a handful of years ago at a Chicago club; for an encore, he did "Four on Six," and he pulled out a chart for it! He then said, "Yep, you guitarists out there, I'm reading a Wes tune! Deal with it!"
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There is some truth to this. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
That said people playing that music all know this shit though. I mean they knew it back in the 70s when the funk bands were big....
There are other contexts for music, but playing songs is an important one. This is why I say I downgraded my expectations. Kids don’t seem to learn any songs....
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Another way of looking it at is lessons or jams could be cultural exchange. Ok, o teach you a tune, you teach me a tune...
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Wow. Where are you teaching and can I take your overspill?
Also, get off my lawn.
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I can't remember the name or the music from titles from tunes, a lot. Generally if someone can hum or sing part of the tune, sure i can play or perform it. Musicians who work all the time generally can play just about anything anytime. (I'm very average pro)
I've worked with too many vocalist, so the intro starts, setting up a tune for a vocalist... you cue the vocalist and then...we go into a different tune... recent example. Set up Night and Day, typical last 8 and I think we were already in Eb, cued melody, fermata, we're holding Eb, then II V etc... vocalist goes into, I Love You, also now in Eb. No big deal, actually almost makes gig more fun. This use to happened back when I was kid also, part of knowing tunes I guess. (Maybe more of how to play and perform).
Remember worked in a band back in 70's that had some great musicians, different local musicians and vocalist would sub in and out, depending who was around for gigs... one gig there were 3 musicians who all had perfect pitch, was interesting. Anyway same BS and vocalist goes into different tune... I remember the pianist was a badass, 7 degrees, played violin and bunch of other instrument, was from Europe, I think Brussels area in belgium, anyway knew most tunes but generally transposing beat him up... I remember having to call out changes to get him going. All this means nothing but there are different, "knowing the tunes".
Typically when working, you cover for the rest of ensemble. We have each others backs.
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Well TBH it's not just the kids haha. Traditional music, I think, would never make the mistake of neglecting the value of orally learned repertoire. Jazz, too, is a folk music in this respect, but its time in the academy has given it the appearance of being a branch of analytic number theory. Anyway, despite my grumping, I love teaching music. Jazz is by far the hardest teaching I do, and part of the reason is our general remove from the repertoire....
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Yeah I know what you mean. The melody tells you what to do in that music. The harmonic movements are quite stereotyped in general once you learn what they are likely to be (its easier to remember exceptions.) The bass line is also yours to play as long as you support the melody...If you learn a song from a chart, you always thinking 'root up' rather than 'melody down.' Originally Posted by Reg
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yea... maybe. Personally... the changes become less important when they are standard Chord patterns within common Forms.
I guess it gets back to that... playing jazz tunes as compared to playing tunes in a jazz style thing.
I believe the learning from charts, and the learning from bass line up or melody down, is just from not understanding the music. Not finishing the learning process. If your a vocalist or single line player, your generally going to learn from the melody down and vise versa. But with Jazz, the harmony is just as important as the melody... and obviously the rhythmic thing. I mean... who plays the melody or the changes the same, the same style etc... when playing tunes in jazz style.
I guess not going through the process of learning tunes on the gig, or having to cover tunes you don't know on the gig... live, has changed what being a jazz player is. I mean most can fake a blues... at least a vanilla version. Why can't they fake other standard form tunes. The obvious 1st reason could be they don't know the Forms, so even if you can hear, changes, have good ears... anyway, who cares, it's what it is.
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There is demand to hear these standardy standards in the clubs I play in Ottawa. People - even young people - like the tunes but musos tend not to. Not only that but the audience tends to like them played straight with the melody relatively unencumbered and stated with some sentiment. Of course, as we all probably know, playing these tunes as boppers might (at high tempo, extended solos and only glancing references to melody) often empties a non-musician room after 15 or 20 minutes. Originally Posted by zdub
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Yes it’s this. I didn’t have to fake tunes until I started playing swing and dance gigs.... It’s not so bad when you get into it... What a III7 and a IVm sounds like... Originally Posted by Reg
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I'm not clear what not knowing the "forms" refers to.
To me, the key issue is whether you can hear the tune in your mind and know what the changes are -- the same way you can hear when a blues goes to the IV chord.
Or, if you don't even know the tune, can you listen to, say, the pianist, for one chorus, and know what the changes are? Same as if it was a 12 bar blues or Rhythm changes in Bb.
That's a matter of having a good ear.
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Yeah there are a lot of forms that are repeated from standard to standard. I assume Reg means like Sears-Roebuck, Montgomery Ward bridges, rhythm or turnaround a sections, New Orleans 16 bar form, so on and so forth.Again it's gestalts. Good musicians aren't listening machines who go 'chord IV7' or whatever - they can do that, but, they will hear a phrase or a group of chords right away if its familiar.
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There are some basics that come pretty easily once you're familiar. It's easy to hear cadences like a rhythm bridge, a turnaround, I I7 IV ivm, going up a m3, a blues and so forth. Originally Posted by christianm77
But standards usually include something else -- and that's the challenge.
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A lot of them - most of them - don’t really. There are a few genuinely unusual tunes. Stella is one. Hardly any tunes start on a dim chord. Also the form is quite sophisticated. But there’s not many of them when you start to look at the GASB in totality. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
That’s why it’s imperative to have played through a few hundred tunes. A lot of the patterns don’t seem like patterns until you’ve seen a lot of repertoire.
Is that bVI7 chord in Out of Nowhere unusual? Is Just Friends weird for starting on chord IV? Is I remember You a bit funny for going I - VII7 - I? Depends how many tunes you’ve seen....
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