What does the "verse" mean?

[JCat]

This is a really a clear explanation.

Thanks, I get it. But GASB is larger than old Broadway songs following an opera tradition.
Neil Hefti's "Splanky" for example. Verse and Bridge, (or just A and B part). Nobody's talking about a "head", because there is nothing but an A and a B.

[mr. beaumont]

The A section is NOT the verse, even on tunes where the verse is always played--like "Lush Life."

I don't know why people want to complicate this. You can't apply the language of pop and rock music to jazz, even if it's what you're more familiar with.

[Vladan]

Does this qualify as verse, in speaking tradition, with some Ya Ya - s:

[MarkRhodes]

Consider the Great American Song Book and the common AABA structure on 32 bar form. 4 sections x 8 measures. The A section is called the "Verse" and the B section is called the "Bridge".

This is incorrect. I've never heard anyone refer to the A section of, say, "Satin Doll" or "I Got Rhythm" as the verse.

The "B" section IS often called the bridge. But the A section is NOT often called the verse. I think you're the only person I've heard do that. (And many standards don't have a bridge: "Just Friends" and "There Will Never Be Another You" are prime examples.)

Look at it this way. When we speak of a soloist taking (or blowing) a "chorus" on, say, "Oleo" we mean once-through-the-form. For "Oleo", that's 32 bars of rhythm changes.

[JCat]

This is incorrect. I've never heard anyone refer to the A section of, say, "Satin Doll" or "I Got Rhythm" as the verse.

The "B" section IS often called the bridge. But the A section is NOT often called the verse. I think you're the only person I've heard do that. (And many standards don't have a bridge: "Just Friends" and "There Will Never Be Another You" are prime examples.)

Look at it this way. When we speak of a soloist taking (or blowing) a "chorus" on, say, "Oleo" we mean once-through-the-form. For "Oleo", that's 32 bars of rhythm changes.

OK, So what do you call the A-part? When you guys "blow the chorus" or play the "head" on Splanky -Do you refer to the melody of the A-part or the whole shebang? Solos are always played over the A part, and the B-part is always played according to the written melody (or should I say "the head of the B-part").

As I mentioned in a previous post, there are different words to describe the various sections in each language. The American Song book is from America, and I would be happy to use the appropriate english language.

[matt.guitarteacher]

OK, So what do you call the A-part? When you guys "blow the chorus" or play the "head" on Splanky -Do you refer to the melody of the A-part or the whole shebang? Solos are always played over the A part, and the B-part is always played according to the written melody (or should I say "the head of the B-part").

You're using a much less well-known tune to argue about common practice on jazz standards? Never heard of that tune. Why are you using some obscure tune as an example?

The A section isn't referred to as the "verse" in a standard 32 bar form, AABA etc. There are outliers and exceptions for anything, but that's not what we're talking about here.

[JCat]

You're using a much less well-known tune to argue about common practice on jazz standards? Never heard of that tune. Why are you using some obscure tune as an example?

Obscure tune? Lol. You are joking right?

There are 1000 Standards in Real book, I don't know them all and neither do you.

I just hope that OP got wiser. I, for one, have learned a few things.

[MarkRhodes]

OK, So what do you call the A-part? When you guys "blow the chorus" or play the "head" on Splanky -Do you refer to the melody of the A-part or the whole shebang? Solos are always played over the A part, and the B-part is always played according to the written melody (or should I say "the head of the B-part").

As I mentioned in a previous post, there are different words to describe the various sections in each language. The American Song book is from America, and I would be happy to use the appropriate english language.

The A part is the A section. That's what we call it. The whole 32-bar thing (for most standards) is known as the chorus. Or a chorus, as in 'take a solo chorus,' that means all the way through whatever all the way through is. "Cherokee" is 64 bars and I believe "Night and Day" is 48. "All the Things You Are" is 36 bars long. In Gershwin's "I Got Rhythm" (when sung) it's 34 bars. ("Who could ask for anything more?" is said twice. But when played instrumentally the tag is dropped and it's 32 bars.)

There's nothing hard about this. The A A B A stuff is not a division of the LYRIC but of the musical form.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Obscure tune? Lol. You are joking right?

There are 1000 Standards in Real book, I don't know them all and neither do you.

I just hope that OP got wiser. I, for one, have learned a few things.

Of course it was a joke. I mean, who DOESN'T know splanky?

[joe2758]

Of course it was a joke. I mean, who DOESN'T know splanky?

[JCat]

The A part is the A section. That's what we call it. The whole 32-bar thing (for most standards) is known as the chorus. Or a chorus, as in 'take a solo chorus,' that means all the way through whatever all the way through is. "Cherokee" is 64 bars and I believe "Night and Day" is 48. "All the Things You Are" is 36 bars long. In Gershwin's "I Got Rhythm" (when sung) it's 34 bars. ("Who could ask for anything more?" is said twice. But when played instrumentally the tag is dropped and it's 32 bars.)

There's nothing hard about this. The A A B A stuff is not a division of the LYRIC but of the musical form.

Thanks Mark, I appreciate it,
It was not my intention to add to the confusion.

This is from Wikipedia

"Thirty-two-bar form uses four sections, most often eight measures long each (4×8=32), two verses or A sections, a contrasting B section (the bridge or "middle-eight") and a return of the verse in one last A section (AABA)."

Song structure - Wikipedia

Since people seem to get emotional about the subject, the text should probably be revised.

[Hep To The Jive]

Splanky is just a blues though, or there is another Splanky that's not? 12 bar blues, there is no A or B.... just a blues.

[grahambop]

Thanks Mark, I appreciate it,
It was not my intention to add to the confusion.

This is from Wikipedia

"Thirty-two-bar form uses four sections, most often eight measures long each (4×8=32), two verses or A sections, a contrasting B section (the bridge or "middle-eight") and a return of the verse in one last A section (AABA)."

Song structure - Wikipedia

Since people seem to get emotional about the subject, the text should probably be revised.

There is a good overview of the whole thing here. The useage of ‘verse’ does seem to be quite confusing. In practice I think everyone just calls the A section ‘the A section’ in jazz.

Thirty-two-bar form - Wikipedia

[Ozymandias]

Interesting thread. To add to my confusion, I can remember having a collection of sheet music for Frank Sinatra tunes in which the "recitative" (where printed) was marked "refrain". I therefore thought that part of a song was correctly called the refrain (even though I knew that "refrain" was more commonly used to refer to something else).

[matt.guitarteacher]

The Wikipedia article isn't jazz specific, not to mention that I think it's just wrong anyway.

From that article:
"Examples include "Deck the Halls":
A: Deck the hall with boughs of holly,A: 'Tis the season to be jolly.B: Don we now our gay apparel,A: Troll the ancient Yuletide carol."

No one would ever talk about "'tis the season to be jolly " as being the "second verse" of that song. It's "See the blazing yule before us" or somesuch, In other words, a completely separate and new AABA.

No one really cares what other people call things until you start communicating with a group about something. Call things whatever you want, but if you don't want to look like an idiot when talking about jazz , you might do well to NOT call the A section of the tune the verse.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Since people seem to get emotional about the subject, the text should probably be revised.

Yeah. Straight from the Trolling 101 handbook.

Please post a link to this imaginary hysterical post.

[Hep To The Jive]

No one really cares what other people call things until you start communicating with a group about something. Call things whatever you want, but if you don't want to look like an idiot when talking about jazz , you might do well too NOT call the A section of the tune the verse.

Exactly that. I'd say on a bandstand on a jazz jam session, let alone a gig, it's better keep in mind Verse in jazz doesn't mean A part. No discussion, just roll with it, end of story.

On a forum of course, all opinions are equal, so we can discuss it for another ten pages and get all emotional together. Here is my emotion

[cosmic gumbo]

Thanks, I get it. But GASB is larger than old Broadway songs following an opera tradition.
Neil Hefti's "Splanky" for example. Verse and Bridge, (or just A and B part). Nobody's talking about a "head", because there is nothing but an A and a B.

GASB is not large enough to include Spalnky, an instrumental blues written by Hefti for Basie, with no lyrics. I wouldn't include all jazz standards in the GASB, but that's just me and the guys I play with in a few big bands.

[JCat]

GASB is not large enough to include Spalnky, an instrumental blues written by Hefti for Basie, with no lyrics. I wouldn't include all jazz standards in the GASB, but that's just me and the guys I play with in a few big bands.

OK, I made a comment about the GASB in another thread recently ("Why no new Standards?")
There's no strict definition what's in or out, other than the broad definition 1920-1950, including the Swing-era. Fair enough, Splanky is a late swing-standard and may fall outside. It's a blues for sure with two very distinct parts, A and B. It's not just any Blues, it's a world famous Basie standard that I have played many times on the band stand.

I don't think there's a norm excluding instrumental music from GASB. "Song" is often synonymous with "tune" in this context. For example, Stella By Starlight, was an instrumental theme song, that later got lyrics, but by and large was often considered an instrumental. Several Hoagy Carmichael songs were also first published as instrumentals, but at the time "GASB" became a concept they all had lyrics. The lovely thing with this music, is that it holds its own, without vocals.

I was under the impression that the subject was about standards and the meaning of "verse". I think of GASB as all the standards from the era, but of course there are many post GASB standards too. All together more than 1000 songs/tunes.

If someone thinks it's important to limit "GASB" to Broadway and that the word "verse" cannot be used in any other context and that people who do so are trolls and idiots, I much regret it.
I'll try to stick to "A-section" and "B-section" etc, when posting here.

[matt.guitarteacher]

If someone thinks it's important to limit "GASB" to Broadway and that the word "verse" cannot be used in any other context and that people who do so are trolls and idiots, I much regret it.
I'll try to stick to "A-section" and "B-section" etc, when posting here.

No one thinks it's "important" to call it that.
No one is "telling you" how to use or misuse the word "verse", inside or outside of a jazz context. You're free to use it however you like. If you misuse the term, it affects only YOU - not anyone else here..
No one will ever call you a "troll" for allegedly misusing terms, and that's not what happened.
No one cares that much about it.

However, no one appreciates having their own words twisted around so much into things which were never said. The OP asked a sincere question and it seems silly not to answer it.

[John A.]

I had played this lovely song for many years before I connected it with the rarely sung first part. Fast forward 1 minute to cut to the chase. Not many people would understand what I meant, If I referred to the first 60 seconds as "the verse".

My experience is that everyone in a jazz session knows this meaning of verse (or at least everyone who has played with singers). Whether everyone actually knows the verse or not, that's a different story, since typically the verse is just piano and singer, but if you ever do guitar-singer duets, you're likely going to learn some verses.

John

[setemupjoe]

I teach a course in songwriting at college and the text I use is the excellent Songwriting: A Complete Guide to the Craft by Stephen Citron.
He speaks at length about verses which I will quote in part:
"If I were asked to name the most confusing concept in lyric writing, I'd have to say it was the word verse, because it had a totally different meaning before the mid-sixties. Formerly, a verse was a section of the song that set the stage, and preceded the melodic or catchy tune. In contemporary songs, the story is told in the verse.....
Sometimes the verse merely sets the story going. In Don't Bring Lulu, the first verse tells about an invitation to a party. The second verse is totally unnecessary, but it was included because the convention of the twenties demanded more than one verse. In the thirties we come back to the expendable verse. Because our popular songs were now recorded, American music started to become more commercial, as the long expansive verses that could set the scene began to disappear. To be successful a song had to make its point in the first few seconds (this is still true) with title and hook. Always published, but often omitted in performance, the verse became more cumbersome than helpful."
Verses generally fell into one of two categories: the 8 line verse ( 2 x 4 line stanzas e.g. Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered by Rodgers and Hart) or the 10 line verse ( 2 x 4 line stanzas plus a 2 line couplet such as Someone to Watch Over Me by George and Ira Gershwin).
Personally I love to hear verses as it gives added meaning to what can be some very well known choruses. My personal favorite is the collected songbook recordings of Ella Fitzgerald.

[rpjazzguitar]

Around here, a "verse" is the original introduction to the tune. Ex: Tony Bennett's I Left My Heart in San Francisco begins with "The loveliness of Paris" and ends with "to my city by the Bay". That's a (great) verse.

The main part of the tune, which we now call "the tune" is often AABA for four 8-bar sections. Around here, they're A1, A2, B (or bridge), A3. I don't hear jazz players using the word "chorus".

The entire song, with melody, is called "the head". It's usually played at the beginning, then there are solos, and then it's played again at the end. The first one is "head in", the last one is "head out". Come to think of it, I've heard the head-out called out-chorus a few times.

If there's something in the chart, played once at the very beginning, it's called an "intro". And, if there's something played once at the very end, it's an "outro".

So, you might hear, on the bandstand, a tune called ... the leader might say something like "All The Things You Are, Bb, last 4 bars as intro, vamp out on the final chord as outro".

I don't know if this terminology is universal, but I'd guess that jazz guys all over will understand it.

[grahambop]

Sometimes the ‘verse’ can be hard to find. When I was learning to play Stardust, I wanted to include the verse but it wasn’t included in the real book version, I found it somewhere else eventually (probably in the ‘557 Jazz Standards’ fakebook). Without the verse, I think this tune really loses something. Anyway you can hear it here in the first 56 seconds. I would generally play the verse rubato, then go into tempo for the main theme (as I did here).

[grahambop]

Even ATTYA has a verse.