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  1. #101

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    I think we are back! Just a couple of ideas that occurred to me this week: if you multitrack, turn off the comping track and see if you can still hear the changes and/or identify the song. Also, can you make the song identifiable by improvising only in one position (6 frets) on one string only? For example, frets 4-9 on the B string.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    Welcome back after our server switch hiatus.
    Each week I'll introduce a tune that has some useful device that will add to your vocabulary. Week 1 had a look at major and minor and the turnaround chords that worked with them. It also gave a good stable look at how these two sides of diatonic sounds work with one another.
    Week two introduced the secondary dominant chords, as ways to take the diatonic and familiar and add some spice and edge to the expected.
    This week we introduce a common chordal sound that we hear in jazz and show based popular tunes that eventually got used by bands like the Beatles. This is the sound of the IV- sound. There are reasons why this works, and if you're curious, you can search the threads on modal interchange and you can read about it. In short, if you're in a minor based tonality, it's got a great set of support chords that includes the IV- chord. It works so nicely as a sound, why not use that set of sounds with a convergence on a major sound? That's the idea, but here's the sound.

    This week let's look at Just Friends. It's for the most part a A B A C, or a two part piece with one an ending that brings you to the top, and an ending that brings you to rest.

    Another area of note, it the piece starts on the IV chord. So while the piece is in G, it actually begins on the IV Major chord, then the IV minor.

    For learning this piece, I'd say the lines fall very nicely as 4 bar phrases, but you break it down the way you like, get to know the tune in segments. I make a loop of phrase length pieces of the harmony and get to know the sound. You do it as you're getting to know your own ear.

    Start slowly, at ballad tempo at the start of the week, and gradually work the tempo up during the week.
    Make a roman numeral chord function version of the chart if you'd like. I'll post one of these later on in the week if it's helpful.

    Here's Just Friends. Have fun
    David

    Commit to a song a week. What could a serious student hope to learn?-fullsizerender-51-jpg

  4. #103

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    Please remember that this is a participatory group and questions you have about anything and on any level are most welcome. In fact, that's what this thread is really about. I want to de-mystify the process of learning/learning about/memorizing/understanding and playing jazz based on tunes.

    So though the piece will change each week, the format won't. If we get to week 6 and you have an AHA! moment about those strange chords that don't seem to fit to the parent scale, ask. We can refer back to an earlier post or I can have a deeper discussion about dominant approach chords.
    Remember we're all processing these pieces in our own way, based on our own knowledge base at the moment. It'll grow. So ask from where you are and share your curiousity and frustration, and we'll share our own moments of breakthrough in response.

    David

    PS Since the server switch over, I haven't been able to pull up this thread using the search function. On my computer or devices, it's like this thread doesn't exist. Anybody else notice anything about the search function quirks now?
    Last edited by TH; 10-15-2017 at 09:59 PM.

  5. #104

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    Tonight I played All of Me at 173. Ouch! My fingers were definitely not keeping up with my ears. And when they could keep up, they weren’t hitting the right notes. I made it into the mid-70s by the end of Superchops. Two nights ago I played All of Me at 144 and it was probably close to the best I’ve ever played jazz. Not perfect, but it seemed like the right tempo for the kinda of sounds I was trying to play.

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    Tonight I played All of Me at 173. Ouch! My fingers were definitely not keeping up with my ears. And when they could keep up, they weren’t hitting the right notes. I made it into the mid-70s by the end of Superchops. Two nights ago I played All of Me at 144 and it was probably close to the best I’ve ever played jazz. Not perfect, but it seemed like the right tempo for the kinda of sounds I was trying to play.
    Hey that's pretty respectable! I'm really excited and curious to see what you're sounding like now. And I'm curious to see what your pre-game warm up is. Do you run through the form so you can visualize the next section before you're there? That's important, being aware of what the next step is. A lot of time is spent establishing a sound or tonality after you get to a change. I found that once I can hit the ground running on a new change, my ideas are more sure footed and I can feel the confidence it takes to leave space, breathe and make every note count. That's the real key to faster tempos in my book-not letting the unplayed music get out of control.

    After the Roberts, you have the option of using those found resources to make music. We'd love to hear it!

    David

  7. #106

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    I love Reg's quote on that ....

    "If you're in the moment , you're late"

    Ha ha funny but its true ....

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu View Post
    I love Reg's quote on that ....

    "If you're in the moment , you're late"

    Ha ha funny but its true ....
    Yes! I could feel that. Interesting to note that the idea of moving towards the next chord seemed a lot more critical and necessary at this tempo.

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    Yes! I could feel that. Interesting to note that the idea of moving towards the next chord seemed a lot more critical and necessary at this tempo.
    One for the notebook/journal! With each week there are things we learn that no teacher can "give" you. And next week when we start the next tune at ballad, you fold in "looking ahead" or "simple at the start of a solo" and as the week progresses, it becomes glue.
    Space allows you to think. Space at the beginning of a phrase allows you to make a genuine idea. Space at the end allows you to create pickups and prep for the next change. Don't be bullied by the bar line. Take what you get at the start of the week and use it the next day. Take the scary near (and total) trainwrecks at the end of the week and use them to build a better track next week.

    One of the best thing about being a player: You feel yourself growing.
    Nice going wzpgsr!

    David

  10. #109

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    Here are a few choruses from my All of Me week. The first is at 96 bpm:



    After re-listening to my takes at 144, I can hear that my time wasn't as solid as I thought. I like some of my ideas, but the fingers couldn't keep up!


  11. #110

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    I'm having a lot of fun with this approach. After the Howard Roberts programme, it's great to be able to stretch out and use rhythm and space, though I catch myself having some noodliness happening. I think I need to work on hanging onto an idea and developing it, rather than moving from phrase to phrase... but it's enough for me just to keep up! It has sort of felt like cheating so far, though, given that I've been quite familiar with the tunes so far. When we hit on one that I don't know so well, that will be the real test.

    Great tune this week, by the way. One of my favourites. Is it commonly in G, though? I think I've always played it in F (starting on Bb).
    Jay

    'boobadoobadoobaooababop!'

  12. #111

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    By the way, David, it occurs to me that I don't believe I've ever heard you play. Any chance of you posting on some of these?
    Jay

    'boobadoobadoobaooababop!'

  13. #112

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    Nice choice. And a coincidence. After spending last Saturday morning playing Autumn Leaves bass part transcription in Rob Gourlay’s book Walking in the footsteps of…Paul Chambers, I started to work on Just Friends.
    There is an annalysis here of this song that generated previous interest and exchanges in this Forum:
    Just Friends - detailed harmonic analysis of John Klenner's jazz classic.
    One small Aha! moment here to me is that the first and second phrases are a melodic sequence: the first phrase (Just friends lovers no more) is followed by an identical second phrase (Just friends but not like before) transposed. But the harmony is different. An interesting explanation of why is given in the above linked resource.
    But far from entering into those complexities beyond my level my first two day practice goals are the following:
    Today
    First. Listen. How it was originally sung in the early 30s:


    Second: Memorize. The lyrics. I (think) have the melody and the structure clear already in my mind. However the exercise will be to check these against the given chart.
    Third: just sing and comp the song on the guitar as in the given chart with no visual aids.
    Fourth: play the structure by memory on the guitar in 3rds and 7hs, then 7hs and 3rds and then get them guiding tones linked. Before having clear this basic foundation for a solo not attempting to start soloing. I found the advice given by TruthHertz on avoiding rambling as essential to this exercise.
    Tomorow
    To internalize a song I like to learn to play it on guitar and bass.
    So tomorow I will memorize one chorus of the bass line by PC and see how it fits with the chart. On a quick look I see that PC substituted the Bmin7 in measures 11 and 27 by F#min7/B7(b9), and the Db7 in the second half of measure 12 by G7 (the given chart has Dmin7/G7 (ii/V) in measure 32. And instead of G6, he plays Gmaj7 in measure 31.
    Then I’ll write the chord functions as I see them, do the blocking exercise and only start with the 30 minutes improv./rest routine on the guitar if time permits on Wednesday.
    At that point the rests will be devoted to repeated listening of:

    That’s the plan. Lots of fun.

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu View Post
    It has sort of felt like cheating so far, though, given that I've been quite familiar with the tunes so far. When we hit on one that I don't know so well, that will be the real test.

    .
    I intentionally picked this one because it might be familiar. This lets us concentrate on just how we overlook things in thoughtful soloing if we're too familiar. So take the familiar and find the unexpected. Take the segments of the tune and play with motif. Allow yourself 4 eighth notes, half notes and see what you can do. When you think it's too easy, you're not digging deep enough!
    All the good stuff is hiding in unexpected places. Go to it!

    David

  15. #114

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    This tune reminds me of alternative routes to the tonic instead of ii-V7

    ivm6-bVII-I

    i was also working on bVI7-V7, but that’s not this song
    Last edited by NSJ; 10-18-2017 at 07:11 PM.
    Navdeep Singh.

  16. #115

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    Do you mean . . .
    Fm6 to E7 to C
    And
    Ab7 to G7 to C
    ??


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  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A View Post
    Do you mean . . .
    Fm6 to E7 to C
    And
    Ab7 to G7 to C
    ??


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Sorry typo corrected it. iv-6—bVII7-I
    Navdeep Singh.

  18. #117

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    I'm still lurking, gents. sorry, got a gig in the studio and had to learn a bunch of new material. doing a demo for somebody. but I'm mostly done with that and back to my studies now.

    really appreciate the effort, David. this is great fun.

  19. #118

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    Here's tonight's effort. Second round with Just Friends, 70 bpm. I wasn't terribly familiar with this tune before this week, so I've had to spend some time listening and learning the melody. I found it useful to outline the tune in scales a la Barry Harris, and also to base my first few takes improvising on the rhythm of the melody (basically keeping the rhythm, but changing the tones). I found that the latter approach really helped me treat the song as a ballad, and not just a series of comfortable target approaches. Anyways, here it is, warts and all:


  20. #119

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    Barry Harris Changes?

    A section
    B° G6 Eb6 A°
    GM7 % D6 Ab-6
    C6 A° GM7 G6
    E-6 C6 A° B°

    ill leave the B section to somebody else cause I got to get to work.
    Navdeep Singh.

  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    Here's tonight's effort. Second round with Just Friends, 70 bpm. I wasn't terribly familiar with this tune before this week, so I've had to spend some time listening and learning the melody. I found it useful to outline the tune in scales a la Barry Harris, and also to base my first few takes improvising on the rhythm of the melody (basically keeping the rhythm, but changing the tones). I found that the latter approach really helped me treat the song as a ballad, and not just a series of comfortable target approaches. Anyways, here it is, warts and all:
    Whoa!! That's great! The notes are thoughtfully laid out and tell the story of the harmony. That's it!
    Keep doing what ever you're doing. It's working beautifully.
    Thanks for that
    David

  22. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ View Post
    This tune reminds me of alternative routes to the tonic instead of ii-V7

    ivm6-bVII-I

    i was also working on bVI7-V7, but that’s not this song
    Great observation. As you point out, there are many ways to get to where you want to go. I'm trying to introduce tunes that will familiarize ourselves with different sounds before we need to reharmonize.
    If you're at a point in your playing where substitution is your challenge, then great, each tune can be reharmonized as fits your taste; that's what improvisation is about.
    There are ways to substitute tonal centres, alternate dominant approaches, sequences and even approaches that purposely avoid tonality until the forms converge. All good. But make sure your foundations are solid, that the harmony that "everyone else knows" is evident in your story telling. If you listen to some out players, they'll make sure the tune is clear before the liberties are taken. Sonny Rollins is a great example. It also gives you a huge amount of material to use as a springboard when the piece "as is" is your starting point.

    I'm looking forward to your adventures and revelations!

    David

  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu View Post
    By the way, David, it occurs to me that I don't believe I've ever heard you play. Any chance of you posting on some of these?
    Love to. A little while ago, I committed myself to a strict diet of fretless. I'm in the second month of a 6 month no-frets regimen. It's like a new instrument for me. I'll be happy to share something on this thread as soon as I move into the realm of control, which I'm hoping will be sooner rather than later!
    I am having fun with these tunes though.

    David

  24. #123

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    Hope everyone's having fun with this piece. One thing I've observed about going from slow to fast, the decisiveness in how I start a phrase is much easier, free of desperate habitual predictibility at slow speeds (big surprise) so I'm asking myself how much thought I put into planning a ballad solo, and the things that keep me from keeping that at higher speeds.
    It's so easy to forget what I know when I miss a beat. So that's what's on my mind this week.

    You guys?
    David

  25. #124

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    I started in on the SuperChops program just as that thread basically ended a couple of months ago. I’m in week 7 of it, but I think I may just continue with that method, applying it to the tunes in this thread. If any of the alumni from that thread think it’s a bad idea, please let me know.

    Otherwise, I’m in starting with Just Friends. Already know the first two songs quite well.


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  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duffy Pratt View Post
    I started in on the SuperChops program just as that thread basically ended a couple of months ago. I’m in week 7 of it, but I think I may just continue with that method, applying it to the tunes in this thread. If any of the alumni from that thread think it’s a bad idea, please let me know.

    Otherwise, I’m in starting with Just Friends. Already know the first two songs quite well.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Personally, I got a ton out of the original superchops program. The rhythmic limitations really forced me to spend some time getting to know the neck a lot better. I feel a lot more comfortable now playing these somewhat simpler progressions, because I spent so much time struggling with the really complicated (to me) substitutions. Also, you only have six tunes to work on in 20 weeks, and I do think the repetition is extremely beneficial.

  27. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ View Post
    Sorry typo corrected it. iv-6—bVII7-I
    So Fm6 to Bb7 to C ?


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  28. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    Personally, I got a ton out of the original superchops program. The rhythmic limitations really forced me to spend some time getting to know the neck a lot better. I feel a lot more comfortable now playing these somewhat simpler progressions, because I spent so much time struggling with the really complicated (to me) substitutions. Also, you only have six tunes to work on in 20 weeks, and I do think the repetition is extremely beneficial.
    Thanks for the reply. The six tunes in 20 weeks is the main difference in terms of the program. But if I graft that program over to here, I will have the benefit of active conversation and potential feedback, while only giving up, or putting off, certain aspects of the Roberts program. And FWIW, I was not religiously following the tunes anyway. I did Blue Bossa, followed by Solar, and then Cherokee - not his program. I think I will probably opt for the company and see how it works for me.


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  29. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu View Post
    Great tune this week, by the way. One of my favourites. Is it commonly in G, though? I think I've always played it in F (starting on Bb).
    Jimmy Bruno says it's usually in F. I need to decide where it will be better for my voice since this is one I would like to sing. The E is about at the top of my range. A d would be more comfortable, but that doesn't mean it will sound better.


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  30. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duffy Pratt View Post
    Jimmy Bruno says it's usually in F. I need to decide where it will be better for my voice since this is one I would like to sing. The E is about at the top of my range. A d would be more comfortable, but that doesn't mean it will sound better.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    I know it's a very short time, a week, to become familiar with a tune, but for those players who have the harmonic fundamentals down, it's good to learn these tunes by roman numeral function, and then transfer that to your fretboard knowledge, sooner than later. It's one of those skills, to hear and see intervallic relationships given a knowledge of all the "do" notes across the fingerboard. On the guitar, the relationships and where they're found is movable. It's something that no other instrument can do as easily. So how you'd play it with "do" on the first fret 6th string is how you'd play it with do on the third fret for the key of G.

    In the key of D, that system is moved up to "do" on the 10th. Does anyone learn to visualize keys this way? It comes in really handy to keep you from getting fixated on "comfortable" positions.

    Just a suggestion for an eventual point of study.

    David

  31. #130

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    This is really not apropos to the point of the thread, but I am really hearing how different amps, settings, and guitars affect how I play over these tunes.

  32. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    This is really not apropos to the point of the thread, but I am really hearing how different amps, settings, and guitars affect how I play over these tunes.
    Well I'd say it has a lot to do. When we know a few licks, it's not music that you'd need to express with a fitting instrument, but when you have something to say, yes having the right instrument is essential.
    And I've found from experience that for me, it doesn't coincide with prestige guitars in general.
    This thread is about creating your voice. It's really of essence to be able to express that with the least amount of resistance. When you find the inspiring combination, you'll know it.

    David

  33. #132

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    As promised, each 4th week of the month I choose a song that's not generally considered a workhorse standard. These are songs I love to play and some may have challenging twists but they're always ones I love playing. This is by guitarist Herb Ellis but it was Bill Evans' version I came to know this song from.
    Detour Ahead is AABA, and the B section provides a beautiful contrast/compliment to the A section.
    Listen to the melody. Listen to how the phrases seem to ask a question, then answer. How it breathes. It's one of the reasons this tune sticks with me.

    Commit to a song a week. What could a serious student hope to learn?-screen-shot-2017-10-21-7-45-47-pm-png

    The thought of the week while you're getting to know this song is: How do you make a solo or song come alive? What are the things that take just notes, and make them into thoughts, questions, answers, exclamations or in some way tell a story?

    Have fun!
    David

    I'll give a deeper analysis or breakdown through the week, see what you get out from your own first encounter.

  34. #133

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    Some of the ways people have found their own take on this song

    Bill Evans trio


    Elaine Elias has a nice vocal take


    And Ella -strangely, as a duo here, the youtube poster doesn't give one hint as to who it was, though she did work with Herb Ellis around that time, and of course Joe Pass later.




    Hope you like it

    David

  35. #134

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    Hi Truth ,

    Is there anyway you can link to a PDF of the sheet for detour ahead ?

    I'd find it easier if I could print it out
    May not be legal .... I dunno

  36. #135

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    Beautiful.

  37. #136

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    I like this version too:


  38. #137

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    I would be really interested if you could script this for solo playing, ie no backing track to follow but learning the complete song, bass, melody, harmony etc, all played by one person on the guitar.

  39. #138

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    This is a great song and this will be a fun study week

  40. #139

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    Here is a quick copy of DETOUR AHEAD.

    I did not check chords, spelling etc., just made a cleaner chart to read.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    If you can distinguish between rehearsing and practicing...you're better than half way there!

  41. #140

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    From jazz royalty:


  42. #141

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    So much to learn from the Great Ladies of jazz...

  43. #142

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  44. #143

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyjazz View Post
    I would be really interested if you could script this for solo playing, ie no backing track to follow but learning the complete song, bass, melody, harmony etc, all played by one person on the guitar.
    You mean a chord solo arrangement? Hoo boy. That's a big question, and one that might make a nice thread of its own, if that indeed is what you're looking for. That's also an implicit treatment of the tune for the weekly tune for those up to that level but there are so many approaches; I think it's a lot for me right now but anyone else?

    johnnyjazz, I certainly empathize though. The first time I heard the Bill Evans version of this, I thought "I need to be able to play this as solo guitar some day". I will share this though, I'm working on this tune solo too, but on a fretless, which precludes any really complicated or reaching chord forms. Not a detraction at all with a piece this beautifully and harmonically descriptive. I work from the melody. It's important for me to get it by memory. Then where changes appear, or when the melody has long tones, the presence of a bass note alone (dyad if you want at the beginning of a bar) is quite enough to make a beautiful arrangement.

    Working from the bass up, you can voice a simple chord so the melody is the top note is the melody (major 7 with 3 on top for starters...) but if you want the whole tune arranged, maybe that's a cool thread on its own. Is that what you're asking?

    David

  45. #144

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    This weeks tune is great. I am not that familiar with it. I really enjoyed listening to Bill Evans, Herb Ellis, and several other versions. I have a lot more listening to do, though. Tonight’s practice reminded me that you can’t always fake it till you make it—especially at 42 bpm! The first two 10 minutes I tried to hit just the thirds of each chord without relying too much on the chart. I have most of it down, but need to spend some extra time with this one. Third run through I opened up a bit, this time trying to pick up to the thirds with various approaches and a little voice little. A for effort I guess. I am going to gradually increase the tempo, but I’d like to stay closer to ballad tempo for this one. A few versions I listened to start off very slow and then jump off into double time.

  46. #145

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    Also, most of the changes are pretty straight forward for me, but what the heck is going on functionally in the first two measures??

  47. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    Also, most of the changes are pretty straight forward for me, but what the heck is going on functionally in the first two measures??
    My take? The I chord is not acting as the I chord and is immediately in motion. moving and trying to move the IV chord (measure 3).

    C° Is the diminished that gets you to the V7 chord (G7). B7 is One of the four related dom7 chords associated with C°. . F# dom is the enharmonic Tritone (Gb) to C7. C7 gets you to Fmaj (V7/IVM).
    Last edited by NSJ; 10-23-2017 at 11:58 PM.
    Navdeep Singh.

  48. #147

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    Great tune. Gosh, Bill Evans playing is incredible on this. I don't know this tune but it's beautiful. I'm going to transcribe some of his lush voicings. Particularly the Cmaj7 treatment in bars 7 and 15. There are some gorgeous lines to be had there. It freaks me out how good one guy can get at his craft. Maybe I'm just enamored by the fact that I don't know this tune. Only transcribing it will answer that for me. Gorgeous playing.

  49. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz View Post
    You mean a chord solo arrangement? Hoo boy. That's a big question, and one that might make a nice thread of its own, if that indeed is what you're looking for. That's also an implicit treatment of the tune for the weekly tune for those up to that level but there are so many approaches; I think it's a lot for me right now but anyone else?

    johnnyjazz, I certainly empathize though. The first time I heard the Bill Evans version of this, I thought "I need to be able to play this as solo guitar some day". I will share this though, I'm working on this tune solo too, but on a fretless, which precludes any really complicated or reaching chord forms. Not a detraction at all with a piece this beautifully and harmonically descriptive. I work from the melody. It's important for me to get it by memory. Then where changes appear, or when the melody has long tones, the presence of a bass note alone (dyad if you want at the beginning of a bar) is quite enough to make a beautiful arrangement.

    Working from the bass up, you can voice a simple chord so the melody is the top note is the melody (major 7 with 3 on top for starters...) but if you want the whole tune arranged, maybe that's a cool thread on its own. Is that what you're asking?

    David
    Yes David, the complete tune arranged for solo fingerstyle, but i can,t read music, it would have to be tablature.

    I am very influenced by Martin Taylor.

    This is a big ask and i know it will take time, but all good things etc.

    Many thanks John.

  50. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1 View Post
    Here is a quick copy of DETOUR AHEAD.

    I did not check chords, spelling etc., just made a cleaner chart to read.
    Thankyou very much

  51. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyjazz View Post
    Yes David, the complete tune arranged for solo fingerstyle, but i can,t read music, it would have to be tablature.

    I am very influenced by Martin Taylor.

    This is a big ask and i know it will take time, but all good things etc.

    Many thanks John.
    Do you know your fingerboard well enough to identify notes all around by name? How are you with chord grids? I won't do TAB, sorry, it's a perspective thing, but it would indeed be fun to do as a lesson in melodic position and chord playing.

    I'll think about how I'd do a project thread. It may take time to get through the piece, but I'd like it to be a lesson on chord melody and not just a list of places to plant your fingers. If that's OK.

    David

    PS. no further lecture on this topic but there's great power in acquiring fluency in standard notation. You can learn it in a month or so and it'd be with you your whole life.