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I'm a day or more early, but I'd like to have a new tune in place at the beginning of each month.
December's Practical Standard is I Can't Get Started (With You), by Vernon Duke and Ira Gershwin.
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11-29-2016 11:23 PM
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I 've got started... just going through Spotify to listen to every known arrangement... I didnt know Mingus was such a good piano player, yes sirree.
I have done this song before but we'll see what happens :-)
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Django, Joe Beck, Oscar Moore, Jimmy and Doug Raney, a few others on my Spotify feed...
The Zoot Sims with Jimmy Rowles version is my favorite so far. Wow.
Listening to Bob Brookmeyer now. Man, I don't ever get tired of that guy.
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YouTube is much better. So far there's Barney Kessel, Jim Hall, Jim Mullen, Joe Pass and Billy Bean. Interesting...
Nice 'n slow in C, right? Don't be fooled :-)
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Check those out for sure. No guitar on the Zoot, but who cares?
This has been a very pleasant morning listening to all the different takes on this one.
More standouts: Lee and Warne, and Bud Shank.
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11-30-2016, 01:04 PM #7joaopaz Guest
This was always one of my favourite guitar recordings 😁... enjoy!
Enviado do meu ALE-L21 através de Tapatalk
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Originally Posted by joaopaz
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Seems like this is one of those tunes with an unremarkable, forgettable bridge. But maybe that's an advantage for improv, since you can make what you want of it.
His changes start something like:
| CM7 Am7 | Dm11 G13 | E7 F9 | D13 (Ebdim7) |
Note that F9 has the same notes as Cm6, which momentarily suggests you've gone to the minor key. It's kind of cool to play around with that idea, but I doubt many play it that way these days. (It wouldn't surprise me if Howard Alden did!)
The Ebdim7 is omitted when singing the melody since it clashes, but it works for solos.
Edit2: I found a version of this tune featuring Howard Alden! (If this link doesn't work for you, scroll down to ragman's post.)
Last edited by KirkP; 12-01-2016 at 09:54 PM.
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Originally Posted by KirkP
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Clifford Brown goes
Bm7 E7 Bbm7 Eb7 | Am7 D7 Abm7 Db7 | in bars 3-4
As far as I can hear.
The Benny Carter goes the same, at least in the bass.
I learned
E7 A7 | D7 G7 | but this doesn't actually fit the melody.
Barnes/Venuti - I think it's
E7 Am7 | D7 G7 |
But then he also plays the sideslip ii-V thing too...
also works as a good turnback for bars 7-8 of the first A section which is what Barnes and Venuti do.
With Bunny Berrigan it's a little more complex because of the sax arrangement,
His changes start something like:
| CM7 Am7 | Dm11 G13 | E7 F9 | D13 (Ebdim7) |
I don't hear the F9 - think it might be an Ebdim7.
Feel free to correct my jabberings
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What is all this with these chords?
The vanilla version is just |E7 Am| D7 G7| which works fine.
Then there's the Real Book 'minor' version which is |E7 Am7b5| D7b9 G7|. They also give the alternate |Bm/ E7| Bbm Eb7| Am/ D7| Abm Db7|.
(The various backing track variations are mostly one of those).
The Joe Pass transcription's good: |Bm7b5 E7#5#9| Am7 Eb7|D11 Db13|... !
KirkP thinks this is good:| E7 F9 | D13 (Ebdim7) | (F9??). Someone else mentioned Cm but I can't remember where. Maybe Cm6 is Am7b5, I don't know.
And so on. Why do we care? Does it really make much difference? Can someone please tell me? :-)
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Originally Posted by ragman1
It's part of the process of learning a tune to me. Listening to a few different versions and hearing what people have done, what the history of that tune is and what substitutions people play. Good ear training too.
I'd be interested if anyone knows a version with Am7b5 in that bar. I heard Ao7/Ebo7. I think they just put that in to make it a minor ii-V. Typical Real Book haha. (The Real Book often has mistakes, bad changes, BTW, although the Sher books are reliable.)
The alternate is what I think of as the Clifford changes.
Dig deep enough into most well known standards and you will find stuff like this. The thread on 'Here's that Rainy Day' is a case in point.
These alternate changes are rarely different enough to cause huge problems (especially when you are soloing) - but sometimes they are, and Rainy Day is a classic example. The first chord chord be major or minor depending on who you ask.
Another common problem is people playing changes that clash with the melody. For example, never play a Bbm7 when accompanying the head for Days of Wine and Roses. But that's more people not knowing the songs properly, or not thinking about the melody enough.Last edited by christianm77; 12-02-2016 at 11:09 AM.
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BTW if we get around to doing Embraceable You, that could get confusing haha :-)
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I'm liking the diminished at the end of bar 4...that's what I'm hearing on that Zoot Sims version too.
I'll try to get up this weekend. Great tune.
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I had a go today, but I'm having a bit of trouble getting going on this one :-)
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Originally Posted by christianm77
The alternate is what I think of as the Clifford changes.
So what are the right ones then, basically speaking? And if lots of players do different things what does it matter as long as it fits?
(I've got a feeling that at speed it doesn't make a lot of difference. Slowly would, however, because the ear's more sensitive to the harmonies. Good harmonies = good feeling).
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Originally Posted by christianm77
(And may I repeat the Joe Pass version: |Bm7b5 E7#5#9| Am7 Eb7|D11 Db13|... !)Last edited by ragman1; 12-02-2016 at 11:38 AM.
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You may be interested in this. It's a trumpet site with pdf's etc. Various versions:
Bunny Berigan |E7 Am7|E7 A7|
Roy Eldridge |Bm7 E7 Bbm7 Eb7|Am7 D7 Abm Db7|Cm7 Am7|
Dizzy Gillespie |Bm7 E7 Bbm7 Eb7|Am7 E7 Abm7 Eb7b5|
JAZZ TRUMPET TRANSCRIPTIONS Jacques Gilbert
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Originally Posted by ragman1
I think listening is always the right answer to any question in music.
Listening to recordings can help you know what the options are so you can keep your ears out to what the other players are doing, and work around the melody. It's good to be able to hear as much as possible.
Stylistically, if I was playing swing I would probably just play E7 Am | D7 A7 | or perhaps E7 Am | D7 Ebo7 | but then if it were a later style, probably would go for the alternate changes.
Also, I think on the Benny Carter version sometimes the piano in playing the vanilla changes and the bass (Milt Hinton?) is playing the bop changes. Sounds OK.
Really I'm talking about accompanying the melody, working with singers and so on. But sometimes if you hear the soloist playing a version of the changes you recognise you can play the right accompaniment.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Roy Eldridge |Bm7 E7 Bbm7 Eb7|Am7 D7 Abm Db7|Cm7 Am7|
Dizzy Gillespie |Bm7 E7 Bbm7 Eb7|Am7 E7 Abm7 Eb7b5|
JAZZ TRUMPET TRANSCRIPTIONS Jacques Gilbert
The Dizzy variation is interesting, will have a listen to that.
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12-02-2016, 01:46 PM #23joaopaz Guest
Hi guys!
Since I'm going to follow this thread 'til the end I thought I could start with a just play-by-ear take; put one note in front of the othervery simple stuff, just eight notes or less.
It's an honest take, the first one (and only) I recorded ... at this point I know very litte about this music - other than listening to a few YT tracks last night. I know it starts in Cmaj7, I know everyone's talking about the bars 3/4 (E7 / Amin7?) and also about a Edim that just popped up.
I heard many times, of course, the George Barnes version (and I borrowed a few notes somewhere) but I'm, at this point, very much in the dark about structure, chord changes, etc. It's a very melodical tune and I always like that and maybe feel more comfortable for starters, as I did.
Anyway, my idea posting this is that it will force to proceed, study this tune properly, and hopefully later add another, better version.
Hope not to single-handedly, bring down the whole level of the thread
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Originally Posted by ragman1
The Bunny Berigan changes are interesting, but I usually prefer changes closer to "vanilla" (or melody-driven). Then I'll add extensions and tritone subs to jazz them up. I try not to use charts that are reharmonized according to some "definitive" recording -- I'll reharmonize my own way, thank you. But I think comparing the harmonic choices different performers have made is interesting and useful in helping me make the tune my own.
Here's a really nice version - Oscar Peterson Quartet backing up Lester Young. Barney Kessel's voicings are great.
Here's an ireal-pro chart based on what I hear in this recording.
I'm sure most of you know Db7 is just a tritone sub for G7. Db9 is basically the same as G7b5b6b9, without the root. The bass player determines the name.
Last edited by KirkP; 12-02-2016 at 03:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Listening to recordings can help you know what the options are
Also, I think on the Benny Carter version sometimes the piano in playing the vanilla changes and the bass (Milt Hinton?) is playing the bop changes. Sounds OK.
Going from which bar?
Ah so Eldridge started the chromatic sideslip thing did he?
Anyway, can't hang around chatting with you all day. Some of us have got lush ballads to work out!Last edited by ragman1; 12-02-2016 at 03:24 PM.
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