Is Goodbye Porkpie Hat a 'Blues'?

**Illuin** · 01-15-2016, 05:16 PM

And if so, why?

The Minor pentatonic works very well over much of it to good effect, but surely there's more to it than that.

**neatomic** · 01-15-2016, 05:37 PM

well in the truest sense..its a blues..in that it was recorded within 2 months of the mournful passing of mr. porkpie hat ie. lester young...

mingus continually tapped the blues idiom..as well as his gospel roots..seemingly disparate..but tapping much common ground...one seen as music of the gods, and the other the devil

mingus wrote & recorded blues throughout his career

here's one of the most bluesy of covers

cheers

**henryrobinett** · 01-15-2016, 05:46 PM

Yes. Minor blues. He doesn't have solos on the regular chord structure of the song. He goes into minor blues.

He disliked Beck's version. He didn't play the changes.

**neatomic** · 01-15-2016, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

He disliked Beck's version. He didn't play the changes.

barring the royalty checks of course!! haha

cheers

ps- good bit

http://scholarsandrogues.com/2014/05...lives-forever/

**wolflen** · 01-15-2016, 08:56 PM

it has the feel of a New Orleans funeral dirge..the changes may have the pegs of a blues but I feel it is more of the "formal" musical celebration that is traditional in New Orleans bands on the way to the cemetery ...it is played slowly and in a low key .. I think that is why Mingus had the changes different from the tune itself..to retain that flavor

**neatomic** · 01-15-2016, 10:06 PM

as i felt..a "mournful" blues!!!...right from someone who was there-here's john handy- via John Handy Talks With Night Lights: Part 2 | Night Lights Classic Jazz - WFIU Public Radio

DBJ: I wanted to ask you about “Goodbye Porkpie Hat.” How did that composition and recording come about?
JH: Oh, it’s very interesting. We were working at the Half Note, and we were on the bandstand when we got the news that Lester Young had died. Well, you know, it was very sad news, and Mingus started to play a very slow, mournful blues in C minor…very slow…and he had me play first, and he just kept goading me to play longer and longer, and so I played a long time on it before anybody else did, so… I believe we took a break and, you know, we were just saddened and walked off for quite awhile. And we were recording within a day or two, and he came up with that melody…and I think we actually had it on the bandstand, and it was in a totally different key. It was in E flat minor. And he had written these very complicated changes that were nothing like most blues (laughs) or any kind of tune that anybody had ever played. It was totally unique to that particular composition. And since he never gave us the chords to anything, it didn’t really matter, because you had to, kind of had to go for yourself no matter what. What he had written, if you didn’t hear it, you didn’t get it right, it was recorded that way, if it wasn’t right! (Laughs) So, luckily what he did on the recording is they played straight minor blues, you know, more traditional, something that we were all used to. That saved me, and it saved the tune.

cheers

**Illuin** · 01-15-2016, 11:37 PM

I know Beck's version well, but nothing beats the original (not even close).

It has to be one of the most laid back and 'sit back and melt into your sofa' tunes I've ever heard.

Never really found it to be a funeral dirge... Poignant, but not necessairily melancholy (at least, not to my ears).

If anything, I've always thought of it as a 'blues ballad'.

**jbear** · 01-16-2016, 12:42 AM

Beck's version is my personal favorite and one of my absolute favorites to play. Unfortunately just about every time I've heard him play it live, he's either chopping it off into another tune (Blues for Nadia...perhaps?) and/or he's playing like he's late for an appointment...rushing through...not letting notes ring...leaving out the spaces. I dunno...he's probably the player most responsible for my picking up the guitar, and I love a lot of his work. Just wish he'd slow down and feel it...you know? Get his tasty back. Maybe it's just me. I have not influenced anyone, so...guess I'll leave a little space now.
Sorry...don't want to turn your thread into a Jeff Beck discussion...I just dig the he** outa that tune. It got me thinking.

**henryrobinett** · 01-16-2016, 12:44 AM

Its cool but like Mingus I'm not all that fond of Beck's version either. I'm pretty married to Mingus' with John Handy.

**Stevebol** · 01-16-2016, 12:51 AM

I like both versions.

**jbear** · 01-16-2016, 12:52 AM

I find it cool to no end that there are so many ways to make a tune happen. That's one of the things that I dig the most about music.

**Illuin** · 01-16-2016, 12:58 AM

Don't get me wrong; I like Beck's version, but the original is still my favourite

**henryrobinett** · 01-16-2016, 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by Illuin

Don't get me wrong; I like Beck's version, but the original is still my favourite

You articulated my point of view so much better than I did.

**fumblefingers** · 01-16-2016, 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by Illuin

I know Beck's version well, but nothing beats the original (not even close).

It has to be one of the most laid back and 'sit back and melt into your sofa' tunes I've ever heard.

Never really found it to be a funeral dirge... Poignant, but not necessairily melancholy (at least, not to my ears).

If anything, I've always thought of it as a 'blues ballad'.

its minor, and 12 bars. the head changes don't look like blues changes to me.

my fake book calls it a ballad, although that doesn't mean too much. Mingus going into blues changes for the solos puts things into a different perspective however, per Henry's point. builds the case for calling it a kind of minor blues.

**whiskey02** · 01-16-2016, 06:36 AM

It is a Tombeau over and above anything else.

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Yes. Minor blues. He doesn't have solos on the regular chord structure of the song. He goes into minor blues.

He disliked Beck's version. He didn't play the changes.

FWIW, I remember reading in a JB interview that Mingus called him and told him he liked his version very much, congratulated him.

**henryrobinett** · 01-16-2016, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by whiskey02

FWIW, I remember reading in a JB interview that Mingus called him and told him he liked his version very much, congratulated him.

I'm sure he did. And he might've been genuine. Maybe he just didn't like that he didn't play the changes. I've already said too much.

**grahambop** · 01-16-2016, 08:16 AM

Jeff Beck's version got me into jazz, so I'll always have a soft spot for it. But when I heard Mingus' original version, that was something else - completely blew me away!

Ian Carr makes the case for it as a blues in his Mingus biography. But a blues taken to the limit with brilliant substitute chords.

**jads57** · 01-16-2016, 11:53 AM

I thought that Charles Mingus wrote Jeff beck a letter on how much he liked his version of Pork Pie Hat? Anyway I love it, and hat's off to Mr Beck for breaking the rules as his per usual! Jeff beck emulates the sax, trumpet, even voice closer than any other guitarist I've ever heard. And most importantly he does it w/ swagger!