Solo ideas for Billie's Bounce?

[srlank]

That dim7 in measure 6 is very common in Jazz blues -- probably predates Bird.

I think of both measures 5 and 6 as Bb7. It's the blues!

Yes! And the F blues scale fits beautifully over the diminished chord!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

One more thing about the IV->I movement of measures 6 -> 7...

Usually with tritone subs you get a descending 1/2 step progression: G7 C is turned into Db7 C. But with a tritone sub here, you get an ascending 1/2 step: Bb7 (b9 if you like) F7 is turned into E7 F7. A little something different to play around with.

[Mike A]

the b dim chord is acting as a Bb7b9 chord. thats how i look at it

[Reg]

There are a million versions of the blues...
But the basic changes are usually the same. Parkers version is originally just;

F7 ../ Bb7 / F7 / F7
Bb7 / Bb7 / F7 / A-7 Ab-7
G-7 / C7 / F7 / G-7 C7

Basic blues have a strong / weak, (S/W), pattern. Bar 1 is S, bar 2 is W, bar 3 is S, bar 4 is W etc... What usually happens is that on the weak bars, changes are made... improve, approach chords, passing chords, V of strong chord, subV of strong... pretty much any standard practice jazz chord or chord pattern can be added or used to replace the chord(s) on those weak beats.

Those added or filler chord(s) or chord patterns generally are approaching the strong bar.

This concept of strong/weak can also work at a faster rate. instead of Bars, can become Beats. Beat 1 is S, beat is 2 is W, beat 3 is S, beat 4 W.
This concept of Strong/Weak can get even quicker. by 8th notes, you've heard the phrase, "the weak side of the beat".

The better you become at playing jazz... the more options you'll have at using this Strong/ Weak concept. This strong / weak pattern can develop into uneven patterns, SSWS SSSW... there are basically no limits... a four bar phrase can have a few different S /W patterns going on at the same time that interact and become S / W patterns in themselves... when actually playing, can feel fairly simple, but when you try and notate on paper, will look very complicated.

What usually develops is there are complete patterns, incomplete patterns and implied patterns. As you develop as a jazz players... you recognize or hear these Chord Patterns, even when there implied or incomplete.

You can simply learn this concept from Trial and Error, through transcribing, memorizing different examples from recorded tunes.

But is generally much quicker, and you'll develop and understand those recorded applications by also taking the time to understand the concept.

The Bo7 has like I mentioned before... a ton of options, can be part of many chord patterns, approach, passing, functional or sub of ....

I'll try and get a video of Billies Bounce up with "SLOW EXAMPLES" of some of the possibilities... the different uses of, or where the "Bo7" can be from, which Chords patterns etc... At least how I see and hear.

Reg

[mrblues]

As Mr. Beaumont has said in other posts, you think in the practice room and when you perform you just play.

+1 on this

just listen to this guy's version:

He is one of my fauvoritest player. In an interview he sad the same like the guys above.

[oldane]

We don't know what Bird was thinking, of course, but he certainly liked developing blues (essentially a non-functional music) into complex functional progressions, with subs providing plenty of interesting voice-leading.....

.... and yet it's not that complicated - if one masters the instrument and can play easily in all keys. We guitarists have an advantage where horn players and pianists struggle more in "remote" keys.

A Bird blues ("Billies Bounce" is not the only one - "Blues for Alice" is the archtypical example often mentioned) utilizes the principle that any V dominat chord can be replaced by a II-V. Parker and the boppers developed this further and in some places replaced the V with III-VI-II-V. Of course those changes were spiced with higher extensions. As Parker put it himself, he used those higher extensions for his melody line and connected then with appropiate passing chords (the dim passing chords mentioned higher up in this thread).

The boppers were very proccupied with the II-V cadenza (and the flatted fifth, but that's another story) in all its variations, and they crammed their themes with it. Many swing musicians had been puzzled by the bridge of "Cherokee", and for example the Basie version of it from 1939 omitted the bridge altogether. No so for bop musicians who knew their II-V cadenzas inside out. They immediately saw that the bridge of Cherokee was nothing but II-V repated in a whole step descending fashion a couple of times. Parkers famous tour de force "Koko", played at a brisk tempo, was a disguised "Cherokee" - a favorite of Parkers (and a tune he liked to show off with).

It's worth noting that chord-scale theory was not what musicians was thinking and talking about in the bebop era. That was introduced with George Russels book "Lydian chromatic concept of tonal organization" from 1953 which was one of the the inspirations for modal jazz around 1960. We really don't need modern chord-scale theory to understand Parkers music. Of course chord-sale theory CAN be applied, as chords and scales are used in all music, but IMHO it complicates thing unnecessarily. OTOH, George Russell likely made up his theory based on what the boppers had played, and at the time he wrote his book, modal jazz wasn't "invented" yet. (BTW, Russels book has long been out of print, but there are used samples available at Amazon for around £700 if anyone is interested ).

[oldane]

... can someone explain how you would play an F7/A chord? I tried googling it but haven't found a information on it.

The A after the slash tells you to play A as the lowest tone of the chord. In this case, in an F7 chord, A is not "outside" or spicy, since A is the major third in the F7 chord. It's simply a plain F7 chord with this particular voicing. You wouldn't do anything terribly wrong by choosing another voicing, but that particualer one may have been chosen to get a particular voice leading in that arrangement. But hey, this is a jazz blues, so you are allowed to take a considerable amount of liberties with it.

[JonR]

...can someone explain how you would play an F7/A chord? I tried googling it but haven't found a information on it.

Just to add to the above:
If you're playing with a bassist, no need to play the A. That's their job.
But you probably should play the F. (Normally in jazz, a bassist takes the root, which means you can leave it out. But if they're playing a different note, the root needs to go in; but you can put it anywhere in the chord, needn't be on the bottom.)


EDIT: I should add that the 2nd and 3rd shapes M-ster posted omit the F, in favour of a b9 or 9 respectively. Nothing wrong with those (if they fit the context), but you should be aware of the effect:

"F7(b9)/A" = Adim7 if the F is missing.

||---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-X-|---| Eb
||---|---|---|---|-X-| C
||---|---|---|-X-|---| Gb
||---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-X-| A

This is a good sub for an F7 chord in key of Bb minor - but it's not exactly "F7/A" . (A b9 would not always be a good note to add.)

F7(9)/A ... aka A-7b5 (or Cm/A)

||---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-X-|---| Eb
||---|---|---|---|-X-| C
||---|---|---|---|-X-| G
||---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-X-| A

Am7b5 is the usual ii chord in the key of G minor (would be followed by D7 then Gm), but (as a rootless F9) would also resolve to Bb major. Again, it's not exactly "F7/A" but could be a good sub, at least if the key is Bb major.

(The 3 shapes LvJz posted all include the F.)

[Vladan]

Is Billie's Bounce a good standard to start taking on bebop?

[Stevebol]

Yes. Learn it in F. Before diving into Autumn Leaves and ATTYA right away give 'Straight no Chaser' a shot too. Learn the melody like noone's business and listen to the great solos on sax and vibes;

[Vladan]

Well, I almost learned first 8 bars, of about 120, some 10 choruses are there, in BB.
Guess in a couple of months, maybe weeks if I practice often, which ther's a slim chance to happen, I'll be able to play whole head in tempo.

Thank you Stevebol.

[Stevebol]

Well, I almost learned first 8 bars, of about 120, some 10 choruses are there, in BB.
Guess in a couple of months, maybe weeks if I practice often, which ther's a slim chance to happen, I'll be able to play whole head in tempo.

Thank you Stevebol.

I didn't learn Bill's Bounce by listening to it. Just got it from the chart. It's a straight blues. The melody is tricky on the high part with some trill but don't sweat it. This vid seems like the go-to version. The first phrase Bird plays in the solo is the 'bounce lick'. Very well know;

The tempos to Bill's Bounce and Straight no Chaser sound about the same- 160-180 BPM. Just pick up phrases from any similar blues and navigate the chord changes. Look for arps, triplets, chromatic, dim in the solos. Experiment.
This is how I learned- by navigating ii-V-I chords over blues changes. I think it's better to do this than to jump into Autumn Leaves right off.

[Vladan]

Ok,

learning head was much faster than expected. Ican pretty much play it in original tempo.

What I've noticed, compared to "my way", biggest problems I had ...

- I tend to play from a pick up beat (last 8th of previous meassure), while parker play it more from 1.

- Similar, but on larger chunk, ...
my feeling is , compared to recording, to have longer pauses in bar 5 and 6, while shorter in bar 7, so to kind of connect licks from bars 5, 6, 7 and 8.
On recording, as Parker plays, 5 and 6 are connected, then in 7 ther's a long pause, and then it starts again from 8th bar.

I can play it as in original, but my own feeling is different.

Now I have to get down at least one chorus of solo as he played it.

[Stevebol]

Ok,

learning head was much faster than expected. Ican pretty much play it in original tempo.

What I've noticed, compared to "my way", biggest problems I had ...

- I tend to play from a pick up beat (last 8th of previous meassure), while parker play it more from 1.

- Similar, but on larger chunk, ...
my feeling is , compared to recording, to have longer pauses in bar 5 and 6, while shorter in bar 7, so to kind of connect licks from bars 5, 6, 7 and 8.
On recording, as Parker plays, 5 and 6 are connected, then in 7 ther's a long pause, and then it starts again from 8th bar.

I can play it as in original, but my own feeling is different.

Now I have to get down at least one chorus of solo as he played it.

Here's my 2 cents on learning Bird's solos; generally I don't try to do it but he's definitely a go-to guy. If your going to be learning some solos note for note keep in mind that you have to modify them. Once you get a solo down come up with your own phrases and practice them like crazy. Then go back to a tune with typical blues changes and just jam to it.
I picked up some things from Bird from listening to his solos over the years but I try to stick to learning from the heads to his songs. I think the essence of his innovations lies in short series of notes, like 4-8, not 16 and longer.
Bird wore out the first 4 notes to 'Honeysuckle Rose'. I learned the head to 'Blues for Alice' not long ago and I'm wearing out the 2nd measure. Just taking those 8 notes and applying, modifying and using it like crazy. However you choose to learn Bird and apply it he's definitely the portal to bop.
I'm going off on a tangent. It sounds like you know what you're doing. Keep at it and have fun.

[Vladan]

Now I read one of Stevebol's posts above, so to clear any missunderstandings.
I don't do this by ear. I'm not a reader, either. So ....
I've got tablature.

My method is:
- listen to licks on recording.
- find the notes from tablature, and get fingers to know the position, ie. I play improvisation on recording using those notes.
- listen again, and try to match.
- lick by lick.*
- connect those licks.*

*The best way to do above I found to be ...
- pick up a chunk of 4 bars. Then go in reverse order. First practice 4th bar, then add 3rd before it, then 2nd, then 1st.
- play over chages using those 4 bars, and the rest noodle arround my usual way
- move to nexxt 4 bars, ...
- after completing the 1st chorus, go for first 4 bars of the 2nd one.
- after learning those, play them, but for the rest of the 2nd chorus play bars of the previous chorus.

And so on ...

[Spirit59]

Would this be a good place to start taking on Bop?

When I listen to it, I hear something Bill Haley would dancify (is this really a word) for his Commets. I can hear lot of Allmighty Chuck Berry and his Rev. Little Richard in it. I mean, I think I could rock arround the cclock over it, at my wildest, while sitting beneth the tree, and never go wrong.

Again, Is this a good starting point?

For sure! A nice jazz-blues really delivers several "jazz truths" (Am I pontificating or what!) on a few fronts! You get a nice setting for a VI7-ii7-V7-I7, you can learn that there are infinite paths to fluidity between playing the the changes and playing more horizontally (the blues!)

Since you mention Bill Haley, here's a bit of trivia:

My step-father and the esteemed Mr. Haley apparently got into a fist-fight over a girl. According to my step-father, nobody "won" the fight, as it was broken up rather quickly......

Does that make me kind of famous?

[Vladan]

... and while the fight was still going on, the girl went away with the guy from the crowd ...

re: VI7-ii7-V7-I7
I need some clarificaton re use of VI7.

At the moment, re lines and licks, all in F, I'm quite fluid with head (in 2 octaves), and first 12 bars of solo (in 10th fret position, and moving arround). I can noodle arround in my usual way while throwing in Parker's licks here and there.

Now I started working on comping, but still did not come to use VI7 (D7 in key of F) in this tune.
Ther's, say, a chord pattern I came across I can use sometimes in full, sometimes in fragments, it goes something like this:
F-dm7-F9-Bb9-Bb(b9)-dm7-C9-C9#5,
and ther's more, but not really important.
Good thing about it, some of these chords are actually enharmonic m7b5, dim,..., which gives it what I think of as a jazzy sound.

If I look at F as if it was some kind of dm, dm and Bb as being some kind of gm, I think it could qualify as:
vi7-ii7-V7-(I7).
How can I turn vi7 into VI7, if I'm even on the track with your thought?

I did use VI7 instead of vi7, but not in a blues tune. It was in IM7-vi7-iim7-V7 types of songs, where I played on the lines of CM7-A(b9)-dm7(orD9)-G7... Still, in Billy's Bounce, I did not come to a place where VI7 would come to me natural.
I can see my self playing it in a punk style powerchords, though.

[ColinO]

Put it in in the second last bar after the F. Makes the turnaround. I actually prefer the F13 - D7#9 - G13 - C7#9 - same thing.

The 8th bar can also be Fm7-D7 (Or D7b9 if you like) if you haven't already done that.

[ColinO]

P.S. - I should have said also that this sounds good because generally you can always play the V7 of the next chord and it will sound good because that is the uber resolution cadence. So you see that the D7 is always resolving to a G(7, m7,Maj7 it doesn't matter).

[kofblz]

... and while the fight was still going on, the girl went away with the guy from the crowd ...

re: VI7-ii7-V7-I7
I need some clarificaton re use of VI7.

At the moment, re lines and licks, all in F, I'm quite fluid with head (in 2 octaves), and first 12 bars of solo (in 10th fret position, and moving arround). I can noodle arround in my usual way while throwing in Parker's licks here and there.

Now I started working on comping, but still did not come to use VI7 (D7 in key of F) in this tune.
Ther's, say, a chord pattern I came across I can use sometimes in full, sometimes in fragments, it goes something like this:
F-dm7-F9-Bb9-Bb(b9)-dm7-C9-C9#5,
and ther's more, but not really important.
Good thing about it, some of these chords are actually enharmonic m7b5, dim,..., which gives it what I think of as a jazzy sound.

If I look at F as if it was some kind of dm, dm and Bb as being some kind of gm, I think it could qualify as:
vi7-ii7-V7-(I7).
How can I turn vi7 into VI7, if I'm even on the track with your thought?

I did use VI7 instead of vi7, but not in a blues tune. It was in IM7-vi7-iim7-V7 types of songs, where I played on the lines of CM7-A(b9)-dm7(orD9)-G7... Still, in Billy's Bounce, I did not come to a place where VI7 would come to me natural.
I can see my self playing it in a punk style powerchords, though.

Just raise the F to F#. The D7 does leave the key of F, but I believe the VI7 chord is pretty standard in ragtime and jazz. In "Billie's Bounce" both the 8th and the 11th bar are A-7 / D7.

This tune reminds me Bill Haley too...and American Bandstand.

[Vladan]

OK, think I got it.

Maybe I could say I already play it in bar 8, in a form of D9, but in my "world" is called f#m7b5, and I play it as sub for am in am-abm-gm lick, as written in version I got.
In turnarround I play it as Ddim = D13(#9#11), but there I think of it as of Bb(b9).

Now, when I tried proposed "clean" versions, I wonder why didn't I figure to play like that. The answer is, I did not think about it, just moved fingers arround, and it never came down that way.

Have to clarify something: I do not try to learn backing as recorded. I'm figuring my own, based on chord symbols over the tab, and those are plain blues except mentioned chromatic downstep, no turnarround is written, just one big F for the last 2 bars.
Of course, I do listen, more for "where" than for "what" but don't attempt to match.

Thank you all, all the advice was really helpfull (Now I have couple more paths to wade through and neverreally learn this thing, and that's propably good thing, too).