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Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
Any way, especially with minor tunes, you begin to hear the context and relationship of the tune as you're used to hearing it, in minor, while at the same time hearing the relationship to major. DO just sounds like DO. It's hard to describe exactly what it is, but it's like reading. You already know how to say the words, but you don't have or descriptive symbol or place for them functionally.
It's a way of mentally codifying and contextualizing all the music you already know. Beyond just ear training intervals, I would imagine that there's tremendous value in just learning to sing melodies and root movements you already know aurally, but with solfeggio.
Very strange seeing Mike's video on this, as I have on my list to record these patterns with solfeggio for Stella, before holiday ends on Monday, as I'm about to have much more "time away from the instrument".
Interesting that I find the 121 patterns easier to sing than roots only. Don't have to check yourself as much. Instant feedback.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-02-2016 at 01:54 PM.
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01-02-2016 01:44 PM
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Hmm. All very interesting. Although I am an awful singer, I do like to sing the melody while playing the chords or playing the melody. When I just play and sing the melody, I can hear the harmonic context, or rather, I can hear a harmonic context. Once I know it, I'm pretty sure it is my ear that is shaping the melody, not the guitar. I can't see the immediate advantage of spending more time learning solfege, but I'm sure you see it otherwise.
I totally get thinking horizontally rather than vertically, and am aware of Van Eps as well as Renaissance, baroque and classical music theories and architecture. When I play, I usually think about connecting lines horizontally, especially, but not exclusively, the top and bottom lines. When I see the chord symbol CMaj7, for example, I see and hear linear opportunities in and around the chord, though I still have an enormous amount of work ahead of me to make that natural for me.
What I'm failing to see is how solfege would offer more than my ability to hear, see and sing these things. But I'm always open to persuasion!
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Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
Honestly, I'm too lazy/busy at this point in my life to give up practice time which could otherwise be used playing something on the instrument. Again, this is something I'm going to do in the way of recording and listening back as I drive or go about my day with in-between times away from the guitar. Just rote singing of melody and patterns over changes with these new solfeggio verses.
Still cleaning up minor flood damage here from storms in my basement. If I get around to doing this, I'll post some MP3s. My daughter seems to love these crazy exercises. A few months ago, I had all the kids and wife able to sing Miles's solo from so what ( not solfeggio mind you) . Started outdriving them crazy and then became kind of a family joke or amusement.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-02-2016 at 02:23 PM.
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01-02-2016, 02:27 PM #129destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
James Jamerson bass lines are my current big thing - pretty much the opposite of 'jazz' as a curatorial platform. On the other hand, bass lines, tenor lines, alto lines and soprano lines - it's all melody.
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Destiny, you hooked in everyone else whereas I failed.
Finally, it seems as if people are willing to try this approach.
I have to be honest, I hated practicing solfege with James Chirillo (read my previous posts, he loved musicianship almost as much as I love it ) I HATED singing.
He would give me exercises out of the old George Wedge book and I HATED it. I just wanted to play guitar with him.
"C'mon James, teach me those Freddie Green chords," I would plea.
Nope, he kept pushing the singing. He got me into seeing melodies in fragments, miniature cadences. But, like I said, an hour's worth of singing.
Too bad I was too stubborn to really listen until the very end. I learned Segovia fingerings, and George Van Eps movements, and how to build a tenor line a la Freddie Green, but I would have learned much more if I did the singing when I told him.
But I hated the sound of my voice. Rob, I can commiserate. But, I can also say, with confidence, that all the singing and ear training and musicianship helped my playing more than anything physical on the instrument.
Why?
Simple. I could access my own unique musical sensibilities. I could access my musical voice. Now I am fine tuning my musical voice to fit what I truly hear and not what is "correct" all the time.
Kurt found his voice.
So did Pete B.
So did Howard Alden.
It's freaking hard work, no way around it. But I guarantee that if you work on your musicianship half as much as you work on technique, you will progress leaps and bounds.
Give it a couple of months and you will start hearing things and understanding things better because of your ear. Honestly, it took me 6-7 years of musicianship to get to where I am right now and I'm still not satisfied. But I am closer to where I want to be, musically.
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01-02-2016, 04:16 PM #131destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by Rob MacKillop
But I'll put forward my opinion anyway, because I think it's relevant to the purpose at hand, i.e improvising on the standard Stella, and also to my broader purpose, i.e. addressing gaps in my knowledge.
As far as improvising 'jazz' is concerned, I think anyone who educates their musical ear will find their abilities enhanced and the range and quality of their palette increased, i.e. I think it would offer greater control, and on an intuitive level ('quick') rather than a conscious one ('slow').
I'll add that while chromatic solfège is certainly proving itself to be a useful tool for consolidating those gaps, what Irez says about the drone is what takes hearing to a different level.Last edited by destinytot; 01-02-2016 at 04:42 PM. Reason: spelling
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Originally Posted by destinytot
Anyway when I've figured out a few more chords I might post them here, it's fascinating to see the voicings Barry uses.
To whet your appetite, the first chord is a kind of Bb dim, i.e. xx8655.
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01-02-2016, 04:48 PM #133destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by grahambop
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Originally Posted by grahambop
x.x.10.7.6.x
x.6.9.x.6.x
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Originally Posted by Irez87
Bb dim (maj7) xx8655
Cm9 (F bass) 1x1331
F13b9 1x4231
Fm9 1x1113
Bb13b9 x56433
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Interesting, Graham. Works for me.
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So, the consensus is another month on 'Stella By Starlight'?
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Dear Wiz,
putting on Stella a F major on bar 9, darkens the understanding of the song IMO.
For me,Stella has 2 tonal centers; Bb major and Fmajor
I skip the intro,so bar 1 begins at Em7b5
FIRST PART (bar 1 to 9) TONAL CENTER :Bb MAJOR
// IIm7b5/III / V7/III / IIm/I / V7/I /IIm/IV / V7/IV / IV / IImV7/bIII / Imaj7
SECOND PART (bar 10 to13) TONAL CENTER :F MAJOR
IIm7b5 V7/VI / VIm / IIm V7/bIII / Imaj7
FINAL PART (bar 14 to the end) TONAL CENTER Bb MAJOR
/ IIm7b5 V7/III / IIm7b5/VIm / V7/VIm / V7/II / V7/II /IIm/I / IIm/I /
/ IIm/bIII / V7/bIII / Imaj 7 / I maj7 / IIm7b5/III / V7/III / IIm7b5/IIm /
/ V7/IIm / IIm7b5/I / V7/I / Imaj7 / I maj7 //
For those who don't easy understand the concept of diatonic and chromatic secondary dominants,go to my post :
DIATONIC AND CHROMATICSECONDARYDOMINANTS WITH THE SCHOENBERG VISIONS OF CLUSTERS OF RELATED SCALES ,11-20-2014
cheers
HBLast edited by Hyppolyte Bergamotte; 01-03-2016 at 02:34 PM.
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Originally Posted by Hyppolyte Bergamotte
Can you post your own version? I'm already trying to imagine the off kilter creativity you will post.
Please? (Honest)
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Hyppolite, I understand your notation, though I was confused at first with use of slash lines not always being bar lines. So, IIm7b5/III means IIm7b5 of chord III in Bb. Now the whole thing makes sense.
So, how does this analysis help you with improvisation? Bars 1 and 2 are a ii/V in Dm, the III chord of Bb. Does it matter to you that they are in Bb? Is it not sufficient to say it's just a minor ii/V in Dm?
The Ab13 in Bar 8 is (by your notation) the V7 of the bIII chord. How does knowing this is the V7 of the bIII in Bb Major help you when improvising? I would see it in isolation, and maybe play a Lydian Dominant on it. [you also seem to precede it with a ii chord - is that right?]
Again, no criticism here. I'm just curious how your analysis helps you improvise over the form.
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Well, thanks for referencing my video, but I'm a little embarrassed about it now - though not enough to take it down. There are a few 5/4 bars in there, or even 7/8. LOL. But I was roughly busking it after working out the chords, more or less. Work in progress.
I'm enjoying all the contributions into this fascinating thread, though I don't always understand them all - not a bad thing, as I like learning news ways. I thought I might try a single-note line study, somewhat Bach influenced. Then I thought I might try two-part textures, which I've seen Gilad Hekselman do very successfully - might sign up for his video. There are so many ways to go, it's kind of overwhelming, but enjoyable as well.
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I've read this entire thread and listened to every treatment of Stella. I've struggled with improvisational line playing for ages, and read a lot of theory, tried a lot of tricks. Still struggling, and Stella has to be one of the hardest tunes I have ever tried to improvise lines for. I love playing it chord-melody style, but I'm still working on line playing.
But the thing I've noticed on this thread is that the performances of the tune that I actually find most compelling, most appealing, have come from folks who either haven't discussed the theory at all, or whose statements about theory have been very standard, mainstream ideas, or have even confessed that they are not entirely sure how to go about analyzing the chord progressions, key centers, etc.
As somebody who works every day (in another domain) at the frontier, the membrane, between concept and praxis, I find it curious that at least a lot of the most compelling playing comes from some of the most straight-forward, even simple statements about theory.
I gotta mull over this one some more.Last edited by lawson-stone; 01-03-2016 at 09:23 PM.
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I've been working on simplifying the key centers for this as much as I could, to be able to hit the changes easily as well as leave room for my individual voice instead of worrying about accidentals in the chart.
I've also tried to work in some thoughts from here and elsewhere, subbing relative majors in minor 251s, and staying in major scales:
Bars/Key Center
1-2 F
3-4 Bb
5-7 Eb
8 Db
9 Bb
10-11 F
12 Ab
13-14 F
15-16 Bb
17-20 Eb
21-22 Db
23-24 Bb
25-26 F
27-28 Eb
29 Db
30-32 Bb
Note the descent from 25 through 32.
My next submission will reflect these, but wanted to share now.Last edited by boatheelmusic; 01-04-2016 at 06:22 AM.
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So, how does this analysis help you with improvisation? Bars 1 and 2 are a ii/V in Dm, the III chord of Bb. Does it matter to you that they are in Bb? Is it not sufficient to say it's just a minor ii/V in Dm?
for your first question,I learned to analyze jazz standards in this way; it does give a more a global vision of the intentions of the composer.When he writed this tune,it's an evidence that he thought all this chords in a perspective of tonal centers.
The Ab13 in Bar 8 is (by your notation) the V7 of the bIII chord. How does knowing this is the V7 of the bIII in Bb Major help you when improvising?
CHORDS
Cmin7b5,Eb min, Gb 11+,Ab7,EbmAb7
MODES
1)Ebminor Dorian (IInd mode of the Dbmajor scale) ,Eb jazz minor (first mode of Eb Melodic Minor Scale) , Eb harm min (first mode of Harmonic Minor Scale), Ebmin11+ ( IVth mode of Bb Melodic Minor Scale) , ,Ebjazz min11+ (IVth mode ofBb Harmonic Major Scale) ,Ebm Hungarish minor (IVth mode of Bb double Harmonic minor Scale)
2) C Locrian (VIIth mode of the Db Major scale)and all the related modes C Locrian9,C Locrian6 the Harmonic Dorian mode, C Dorian b5mode ,C Semi-Locrianb4(the VIth mode of Eb Napolitan Major Scale)
3) GbLydian and all the related modes
4)Ab7 Mixolydian and related modes
cheers
HBLast edited by Hyppolyte Bergamotte; 01-04-2016 at 07:02 AM.
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Has someone posted up the original changes for the tune?
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The original always reminds me of Rachmaninoff, that style of harmony... All those changes work superimposed on the original changes, and vice versa, though there are issues about using Bb altered scale harmony for the first couple of bars (which is what I tended to do) - Bb diminished may be a better a choice.
My analysis would be as follows:
Bear in mind I regard bVII7 I, V7b9 I, IVm I as interchangeable (Barry Harris) as they are all movements that employ the b6. As you can always stick the b6 into the any major key chord movement (BH) this means that V7 I, IV I, V7b9 I, IVm I, V7b9 I are all reflections of the same thing (the Diminished-Major 6th scale.)
I realised this from looking at transcriptions before I realised BH had an overarching theory for it.
Anyway, given b6 is always big and clever, this is the way I view the progression:
Bars 1-7: Eo7 for two bars! Then F7 Bb7 going around to the Eb and coming back to Bb. You've taken your first steps in a larger world.
Bar 8-13: Then we either stay in Bb or visit Dm, before going to F. Go hyperspace to a couple of planets, etc...
Bar 14-16: Then we wind around to set up Gm. Get set up for your attack run, and watch for enemy fighters.
Bar 17-24: The expected Gm is - surprise! - a G7b9 which pushes us towards Cm7/Eb6 and thence back to Bb. It's a trap!!! We can't repel firepower of that magnitude.
Then we go windy windy around using either a set of whole step doms (A7 F7 G7) or the Eo7 for two bars or and then a You could even do a Poe Dameron turnaround: Db7 Gbmaj7 B7#11 Bb using tritone symmetry. Now let's blow this thing and go home.Last edited by christianm77; 01-04-2016 at 01:45 PM.
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I'm getting overwhelmed with possibilities. I might check out of this thread. Clear my head.
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Bear in mind I regard bVII7 I, V7b9 I, IVm I as interchangeable (Barry Harris) as they are all movements that employ the b6. As you can always stick the b6 into the any major key chord movement (BH) this means that V7 I, IV I, V7b9 I, IVm I, V7b9 I are all reflections of the same thing (the Diminished-Major 6th scale.)
In the Bb diminished Major 6th scale,F7(b9),Ebmaj,Ebm and Ab7b9(without the Tonic) are interchangeable (BH theory)
But I find your progression not very clear.
Could you please set up your chords( of different choices of chords )bar per bar ?
thanks !
HB (Alas! not BH!)
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Originally Posted by Hyppolyte Bergamotte
But I'll try and make it clearer if I can... Standby. As the Death Star laser guy says twice for no reason other than to let the rebels win....
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Ok here it is as clear as I can put it.
The arrows indicate movement towards target chords. You can always use BH style dim7/borrowed tone type movements or anything else you fancy really provided it sounds good to you.
You may notice that the all of the chords originally in the progression that are under the arrows fit into the 8 note BH dim6 scale for the target chord in most cases.
We remove the ii's in ii-V as well. Not important.
In BH land we use Eb6 instead of Cm7. I tend to think Cm7 but that's cos I'm a guitar player.
This is the way I understand things when I do a jazz.
Last edited by christianm77; 01-04-2016 at 05:48 PM.
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