The Girl From Ipanema - key of F - vocal 4th higher

[DanielleOM]

I spent a day with my bass player where we had a lot of discussion about this tune. At first I wanted to sing it in the key of Bb. However, she really wanted to do it in the key of F.

What we ended up with is us playing it in the key of F, (bass and chords) with me singing a 4th higher than written. (actually singing as if it was in the key of Bb)

We still have a lot of work to do on this. This would be the first Bossa Nova style tune we have looked at.

Before I spend a lot of time going down this road, does this approach for key and vocal make sense to others? Can anyone identify precedence for this approach?




Thanks

Danielle

[mr. beaumont]

I'd have to hear it.

My gut tells me it's not a great idea.

[M-ster]

This doesn't make much sense. Do you think it sounds good?

My first thought is: If there's a vocalist, play it in the key in which the vocalist sounds best.

[DanielleOM]

I went on to You Tube and found some versions in different keys.


Diana Krall Bb

Gilberto Db

Sinatra with Gilberto F

In the Standards real book it's in F.

[mr. beaumont]

Yes...but the harmony follows the melody here.

[kamlapati]

I just tried playing the melody line a 4th higher than the bass and chords and I'm not a fan. The band and singer really need to be in the same key or else it's a different song. Your audience has certain expectations, especially on a tune as well known as this one, and it's best to let them guess right for at least a while.

Normal rule: first time through, sing the melody as straight as possible. Then when you jam on it, play around: the song gives you lots of options for timing and harmony changes. Oh yeah, and always listen to the rest of the band.

[DanielleOM]

Rich

Thanks for posting. I think, my bass player has come around to playing it in Bb.

Danielle

[DanielleOM]

I just downloaded the Fareed Haque Bossa Nova 123 video from Truefire. I think it's really going to help.

One thing I noticed was that my left hand quickly fatigued. It seems like you are holding chords down quite a long time with this style while the right does it's thing. I dug my classical guitar out of the closet, that I have not used in years. I am glad I kept it. I think it will make things a lot easier.


Danielle

[Flyin' Brian]

The last time I got asked to play that I was asked, "Do you know Ipanema because we don't have a chart for it"

Thinking that practically everybody does it in F, I said "Sure" and the singer said "OK we do it in Db"

It was an interesting exercise in concentration, but in fact Astrid did it in Db.

[Guitarzen]

If you're a high level singer and you are the big draw, you decide what key to play every song in, based on what best fits your vocal range. For example if you are Diana Krall, I'll be happy to relearn all tunes in different keys in order to play in your band. I'd say if you're just a hobbyist / amateur / novice, whatever, you might first try to sing a song in the typical key since all the musicians will likely know it in that key already. I.e. if you are my neighbor or mailwoman or barista at Starbucks, I'll be less willing to relearn every jazz standard I've ever learned, just to put the key in the easiest possible range for you. In general, I think it's best if you only change the key if the given key really does not work at all. Most musicians will not have a problem with this. But as I said, I think most musicians willingness to adjust for you will be based on how well established you are as a professional vocalist, or how much they like you! So be nice! Let's be real. I have backed up singers before that were easy to work with, and some that were difficult to work with and thought they were divas, when they ...weren't. Obviously if the pay is great, there will be no complaints. But if your playing small local venues for peanuts you don't have much leeway to make too many demands. Every musician will vary in their willingness to go the extra mile. Personally, I would be less patient with a demanding vocalist (or any demanding band member), especially if they were just mediocre / karaoke level. And I'm not saying you are being a diva or too demanding if you just request a few tunes be changed to a non-standard key. That's perfectly reasonable.

[Flyin' Brian]

This is true. And feel fortunate that the singer even KNOWS what key he/she sings a tune in.

[richb2]

so true!

[Sam Sherry]

If you're a high level singer and you are the big draw, you decide what key to play every song in, based on what best fits your vocal range . . . If you are my neighbor or mailwoman or barista at Starbucks, I'll be less willing to relearn every jazz standard I've ever learned, just to put the key in the easiest possible range for you. . . . Obviously if the pay is great, there will be no complaints.

With respect, I cannot disagree more strongly.

a) How much does a gig have to pay to for you make "making music" your top priority at it? What's your message, GZ -- "I am too big-time to transpose for the likes of you?" Let me know how that works out for you.

b) Keys are an illusion. The song remains the same. If that's an issue, keep working on it. Yes, it's hard to transpose an intricate melody on sight but chording while someone else handles the melody . . . it's nothing.

c) Transposing is just brainlessly easy on guitar. Singers, in contrast, have a range outside of which they feel strained. That's why orchestras tune to the oboe, and jazz combos transpose to the singer.

I'm on the gig to make music. I am going to do what needs to happen to make music. If that something is as easy as transposing on guitar or bass, there is literally no reason I should think twice.

[ecj]

I gotta say that, as a singer, I'd be totally uninterested in playing with anyone who couldn't adjust the key to fit my voice. Voice is such a delicate thing, and it's so important for things to be in a comfortable key. If you want your group to sound terrible just so you don't have to transpose...well.

Ipanema is just not going to work a fourth up. No way, no how. What are you going to sing when the melody note is supposed to be the flat five over the five chords in the descending part on the bridge? The maj 7? Yikes. It's a hard enough song to sing without doing something insane like this.

Part of being a jazz musician is knowing how to transpose. It's like being able to read music, or solo, or comp. You have to be able to do it. There is no "right" key for any jazz tune except the one that works the best.

I'm always transposing for singers and horn players. Always. It's my job.

[destinytot]

A live recording of Ipanema. Singing and playing softly isn't at all straightforward in a live setting with so many players on stage. Sensitivity.

[richb2]

nice job.

[Guitarzen]

With respect, I cannot disagree more strongly.

Something to consider is that composers for the most part, write songs to fit the most common vocal range of singers. So if you have a singer that "needs" every single tune transposed to a different key than the most commonly used 1 or 2 keys, it's a problem with the singer. It shows that they don't have any range or don't have control over their upper range and/or are afraid to use it. I've met singers who could sing in the higher female vocal register, but refused because it was difficult or they didn't think their upper range sounded good enough. I worked with one female singer who insisted on singing everything in the lowest range possible, I mean literally in a range that a baritone could sing it in. She was completely capable of singing it in the higher range that the tune was originally written in (and it sounded better to my ears). That's really what I was talking about -- unnecessary changes, and/or a singer that is just not that good to begin with that your only going to get low paying gigs with anyways. I'd be much less enthusiastic about that than a good paying gig, which I'd be happy to put in any extra effort required. I can sight read most jazz charts, but it would irk me a bit to have to relearn 30 jazz standards in different keys, and be playing at my 'sight reading level' rather than my 'well practiced' level. Granted I may be making a bigger deal out of it than I should as I can read charts pretty good. I guess it would be fair to say that you should make your decision based on whether or not you get fair compensation for the amount of work you have to put into meeting the demands of the singer / band leader. Obviously for one person, they may easily and quickly transpose everything and not need to put hardly any effort into it. Another person might actually really struggle with it and have to put in an inordinate amount of time into it for the amount of pay involved.

[paulkogut]

The traditional "Real Book" keys for Great American Songbook standards are generally pitched for male vocals. For someone working with female singers, they're often going to be singing a 4th or a 5th away. For anyone serious about jazz, getting comfortable with standard tunes independent of key is a good idea. In addition to accompanying singers, I've been on jazz gigs where the tunes called are "Like Someone In Love, 16 in Ab, 16 in D", "Wine and Roses, same thing, but F and Ab", "How Deep Is The Ocean, lets do a chorus in G upfront as an intro", "Miss Jones, 2nd A and Bridge up a half step", "Softly, last 8 down a half step" etc. etc.

If you're a singer, especially if you're working in smaller markets, not a bad thing to invest in a notation program or hire a copyist to get lead sheets in your keys. You shouldn't have to, rhythm sections should know tunes and keys, but it doesn't always work out that way. And if you're just meeting the other musicians, don't call a tune in B if it could work in Bb or C.

There are lots of approaches to getting comfortable with this, but I like the way Bruce Forman has summed it up "You're not really transposing, you're playing familiar chord patterns by ear, just starting in a different key"

PK
Welcome to PaulKogut.com
http://youtube.com/paulkogutmusic

[targuit]

Destiny - Is that you on vocals and guitar? I liked that recording. Nice job. Interesting key choice.

[richb2]

There are lots of approaches to getting comfortable with this, but I like the way Bruce Forman has summed it up "You're not really transposing, you're playing familiar chord patterns by ear, just starting in a different key"

PK
Welcome to PaulKogut.com
http://youtube.com/paulkogutmusic

Can you list a few of the other approaches (ie books, videos) to learning to quickly transpose? I find I am totally tied to the Realbook, not only when comping but also when soloing.

[destinytot]

Destiny - Is that you on vocals and guitar? I liked that recording. Nice job. Interesting key choice.

Yes - thanks. We do choose our keys carefully. (I listen to a lot of '30s recordings, where keys change for the 'vocal refrain'.)

EDIT: I assumed you meant the rehearsal. The project is much more interesting because of the way we're approaching it. Mind you, everyone in that bossa nova band approached the music with reverence, making every gig a pleasure.

[destinytot]

Can you list a few of the other approaches (ie books, videos) to learning to quickly transpose? I find I am totally tied to the Realbook, not only when comping but also when soloing.

I'd like to make a suggestion, richb2: sing, hum or 'hear and name' in solfège before playing (either do-re-mi or 1-2-3/i-ii-iii).

I've heard this called 'moveable do' in English, but I learned to do it as numbers. I learn all my changes by singing chord tones this way, but I've done a lot of transcribing - which I now do quickly, and by ear. It's mental arithmetic.

This transfers to any melodic instrument; playing involves making that 'ear-to-finger' connection.

Hearing first brings clarity and coherence, and exposes second-guessing (which is easily remedied by study). It can turn turns 'typists' into 'authors', in the sense that the typist performs a mechanical task with efficiency and speed, whereas the author expresses ideas - creates.

[silverfoxx]

A live recording of Ipanema. Singing and playing softly isn't at all straightforward in a live setting with so many players on stage. Sensitivity.

Mike,
absolutely fabulous, great to hear Bobby Wellins I remember him
from..'ahem' ...a few years ago. more please. I fully expect to
hear your young daughter joining you in the future,







Best, Alan

[DanielleOM]

The change in key from F to Bb, is not that bad as for the most part you are just moving everything over to the next string. (next key on the cycle)

These days, for any new tune we are adding to the repertoire, we create a score using Musescore 2, (open source). Changing keys only takes a few clicks of the mouse. (By entering the score ourselves we find we can get a consistent look for the scores)

We are both using Acer Iconia 6120 dual screen (tablets) for viewing on the gig. I hate the thought of replacing them, because I do not see anything like that on the market today.


Danielle

[destinytot]

great to hear Bobby Wellins

A wonderful, wise and very witty man. Great company.