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Richb2,
Let’s say you get called to sub in a couple different wedding bands (does that even happen anymore?) One of them does “Johhny B Goode” an A, the other in C. How do you approach it?
You could say A goes up a m3 to C, D goes up a m3 to F, E goes up a m3 to G.
You could say A goes up at 4th to D, D goes up a M2 to E, so C goes up a 4th to F, F goes up a M2 to G.
You cpuld say A,D, E is I, IV, V in A, so C,F, G is I ,IV, V in C
You could say the rhythm riff is played at 5th fret 6th string, 5th fret 5th string and 7th fret 5th string, and start on the 8th fret 6th string.
Most likely, you wouldn’t need to do any of these, you’d just play the tune because it’s a simple chord pattern that you understand completely, and you can just play it by ear in any key you start in. For the cats that are good at transposing for singers, they’ve worked with harmony and chord progressions enough that tunes like Prelude To A Kiss and Body and Soul are as simple and familiar as Johnny B Goode.
PK
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04-29-2015 10:45 AM
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>>Most likely, you wouldn’t need to do any of these
Yes true on Johnny B Good (if I could remember how that tune even goes). I know how it works mechanically. I am just wondering how one transposes on the bandstand? Is there a book or class that gives you "rules of thumb" or tricks to use when doing it? For example should songs be memorized (not that I can remember much) in Roman numerals in general.
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Well you can carry your guitar in a gunny sack
Sit between the rails on a railroad track,
Drivin' with the rhythm that the drivers made.....
Sits a country boy ...
Johnny go! Go, Johnny, go go go!
Something like that. My memory for the lyrics fails me, but it is just a blues.
Transposing? Just think in terms of intervals from the tonic.
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Originally Posted by paulkogut
Richb2
The above is pretty much all the tricks I'm aware of for transposing on the bandstand. I've used every one of them at on time or another, but always worked toward to goal of being able to play familiar chord progressions by ear independent of the starting key.
PK
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... just one more thing about singing Bossa Nova: never sing using vibrato, or use it moderately.
And there's a reason. I'll try to explain with my bad english.
In the 50s, in Brazil, the form used to sing before the bossa nova was using too much vibrato. The theme of the songs were sad about impossible love, a lot of drama. Bossa nova appeared as something contrary, a new aesthetic that refuted the previous form. The themes were possible loves, things that can work. And one of the great innovations of João Gilberto at the time was to sing without vibrato.
Girl From Ipanema is a song of an impossible love, but it has nothing dramatic and sad, it's just a reflection.
Of course everybody is free to sing with or without vibrato, but bossa nova with vibrato sounds really weird to me!
my$0.02Last edited by Campos; 05-01-2015 at 11:19 AM.
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Interesting comment about the voice vibrato. That's tough for me. There's always this touch of vibrato in the voice. Having a tough time singing without messing up the right hand guitar part. I guess it will take more than few days to work that out.
Danielle
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05-01-2015, 11:54 AM #32destinytot Guest
"João would revolutionize popular singing with the same low-pitched, whispering, vibrato-less style for which Jonas Silva had lost his job to João." (from The Man Who Invented Bossa Nova.)
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João Gilberto was a vibrato and loud singer early in his career. It's really surprising! I can't imagine! Originally Posted by destinytot
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Transposition is a prerequisite for a working jazz musician, period.
Songwriters didn't necessarily write for vocal range unless it was their own.
There is no "right" key for a song, only for a singer.
I work with many singers, and I work a lot, because I support them, play in the keys,
styles and tempos they want. I also am Music Director for several singers and ensembles,
and would not hire a player who couldn't or wouldn't transpose.
In fact, the "original" keys of most standards are very guitar-unfriendly, and I find myself rearranging
many tunes to take advantage of the guitar's range and sweet spots.
The Real Book sucks, by the way. I won't allow it on my gigs.
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Ron, are you saying that if I am not a working jazz musician(which I am not), then I don't need to learn to transpose and can keep my realbook? Life is good! Originally Posted by ronjazz
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Learn to transpose tunes quickly. I have had to acquire this skill on the band stand (I work with bandleaders who call modulations on the last chorus of tunes, etc.) Most of the tunes I have to do this on are pretty simple - that is not for example Stella, but there are some kinks. For example most people in the UK play Just Friends in G but every so often you'll play a gig with guys who know it in F. So it's good to get used to things in a few keys. Plus singers will like you (Actually is that a good thing? ;-))
It's interesting that many very good players lack this ability, but it's common among jazz players with a more 'bandstand' mentality - sidemen and accompanists etc who know hundreds of tunes - rather than more project oriented players (who work more on originals and have a handful of jam session things they can play when the need arises.) Or big band/session guys who can read fly shit and have never learned a big repertoire.
GFI's a difficult one. Here's how I'd go about it.
A section goes I II7 V7 (bII7) I - so very similar to Take the A Train and quite a few other tunes, with a tritone sub on chord V, which turns it into chord bII. Therefore you can think 1-2-b2-1 in the key. So for Db major, say:
Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db
You can transpose the chords to:
Dbmaj7 Eb7 D7(#11) Dbmaj7
Now the bridge is tricky. The original is (in F)
Gbmaj7 B7 Gbm7 D7 Gm7 Eb7 Am7 D7 Gm7 C7 (more or less)
OK, so we need to recognise familiar patterns. The turnaround Am7 D7 Gm7 C7 (3 6 2 5) should be familiar - if not, make sure it is!
The other bit is harder because it's very non-standard. I can't think of any other tunes that use this bridge.
We can see there's a pattern going up in whole steps with the 7 chords, for example, or that we have a sort or Im-bVI7 thing going on (Gbm7 D7 Dm7 Eb7.) Personally, I just remember the intervals for root movement and memorise the chord qualities, though I'm not sure if this is the best way:
F (A section)
up a half step - Gbmaj7
up a fourth - B7
back down again - Gbm7
down a major 3rd - D7
up a fourth - Gm7 (also up a semitone from the last minor)
down a major 3rd again - Eb7
Turnaround 3 6 2 5 back into the A section F. (Starting on a chord a tritone/b5 above the last)
It's a weird progression. Some progressions are - the bridge of Ain't Misbehaving or Skylark. But many are pretty standard.
Important things to know:
-Scales for all 24 major and minor keys (start with the obvious ones - C, F, Bb etc)
-The cycle of fourths (have this down so you don't have to think.)
-Voicings for all the most common chords in all keys (maj7, min7, dom7, m7b5, dim7)
-Chromatic intervals, and their inversions (e.g. min6 up gets you the same note as maj3rd down)!
This may seem daunting, but practice a bit each day (maybe 15 minutes) and it will get easier. Don't expect to master it straightaway.
Hope that's some help! You can always write things out until you can do it in your head while playing.Last edited by christianm77; 05-02-2015 at 07:35 AM.
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I see these references to changing key quickly on the fly, I find myself wondering what types of playing people are doing when they are doing it.
I can imagine people doing it when playing a fairly straight forward chordal backing. Can't imagine people doing it quickly on the fly for a complex chord melody piece or introduction.
Danielle
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Alternatively, if you are happy to just play tunes and don't want to improve your skillset or have limited time to do so, the iRealB app allows you to transpose tunes instantly into any key you want. Originally Posted by richb2
In fact, many young professional players use this app now... I think it's a bit of a crutch, but there you go...
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Nah, not me. I'm talking about the chord progression to a song like All of Me etc. Not too hard, even I can manage it. Originally Posted by DanielleOM
I wouldn't find it so easy with a Wayne tune! But still this is a skill you can develop. Learning Giant Steps in all 12 is considered a rite of passage in some circles - as it crops up in loads of other Coltrane things and is an interesting sub, it's not a waste of time if you play this type of music.
There are guys who can transpose written scores though. I know a guy on piano who can transpose Bach at sight from open score (SATB) down a semitone (approximately Baroque pitch) so that the choir can get used to singing it at that pitch for when they do it with a period band. He's also a jazz pianist (works a lot with singers, no surprise).
Pianists are better at music that guitar players, I would say :-)
In any case, you have to start somewhere, but some people have taken their skill set very far, and this type of thing is actually quite invisible - if someone is a great musician in this way, they just get on with it and everyone takes it for granted - apart from other players perhaps.... It's amazing, truly selfless musicianship, so much cooler than the ability to play 6 zillion notes a second.
If I had to cultivate this skill, apparently the way to do it is to read everything as if it's 1 2 3 4 5 6 etc from the key centre (like sight singing) and then place 1 wherever you want it. This shouldn't actually to be too hard on guitar as we can move fingerings around. The difficult bit would be reading 3 as opposed to E (if the key's C major.) So the same as it is for chords, basically.Last edited by christianm77; 05-02-2015 at 07:49 AM.
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Destinytot - are you Mike McKoy? Originally Posted by silverfoxx
If so wonderful to hear from you. You might not remember me, but you were responsible for introducing me to Brazilian music about 20 years ago when I was just getting into jazz. I went to your gig at the old Komedia, back in maybe 95 or something? And the Brighton jazz co-op?
I didn't notice the link at the bottom of your posts! Duh.
And yes Bobby Wellins, wonderful. Guys from my home turf, Brighton and the South Coast of the UK, where I grew up.
PM me when you are gigging next, I'll try and make it! (Or suppose I can look at your website ;-))Last edited by christianm77; 05-02-2015 at 08:06 AM.
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Yes I have iRealPro that I use when i am just practicing. But I find that the chords are sometime a little "simpleminded", so i usually go with a Realbook instead when playing with "others". Plus with a Realbook you get the melody too. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Just a tangential off topic ... Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Recently, a girl came to record an original song. She brought own prepared midi files which I've edited and so on, and we recorded guitars and vocals.
While recording vocals I've noticed, apart from actually singing everything some 1/4 note lower she had only one real bad, at the dominant point (she was
singing a note slightly lower than F# over G7, sounded awfull) and I thought, no big deal, I'll tune it in PC, I already have to transpose all the vox 1/4 up ...,
Now the good part....
I tuned that one to G. She did not like it. Tuned it to F, she did not liked it. Claimed it was not her melody, not her song ...
At the same time, she realized it was out of tune and did not go with the song.
Then it lightened in my head. I've retuned whole backing, (including rhythm guitars, yes whole chords), from C to G, and voila.
She had her melody in the right key. She said it sounded like being in a different mood, but actually liked it.
We did not re - record any vocals and guitars for the song.
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I actually find the chords in iRealB are very often over complicated (and full of mistakes often, as the chords are 'crowd sourced')! Originally Posted by richb2
The benefit of simple chords is that you are less likely to be clashing with the melody and can add your own subs in... That said, you kind of have to know the melody or be able to hear it to play extensions etc with the melody. Also things like (as Kreisberg say) not playing Bbm7 in Days of Guns and Roses as the melody is on A.
So yeah, having the melody is good - knowing the melody is better and having SuperEars (tm) is ideal :-)Last edited by christianm77; 05-04-2015 at 07:28 AM.
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Hi
I am finding this tune is a challenge. However I suspect playing any Bossa Nova tune for the first time would be.
I have the Fareed Haque Bossa Nova 1 2 3 video. The right hand pattern seems to work, however I find my right hand pattern seems to fall apart when I start to sing.
I am thinking that playing and singing way below normal tempo, may help to work through this, so that I get a feel for how the right pattern and voice align.
There is a .pdf of the right hand with the video, and I am having difficulty seeing how it aligns with a drummers clave pattern. I am thinking perhaps a clave pattern written out for a drummer might be written out more precisely than what is written for the right hand guitar part.
Danielle
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One of the things that makes it easy to solo over that song especially the bridge is to see the bridge as a series of 1-4s. Originally Posted by DanielleOM
F#ma7 to B9 is a 4th
Think Ama7 in substitution for the F#m9 and you have Ama7 to D9......a 4th
Think Bbma7 in substitution for the Gm9 and you have Bbma7 to Eb9.....a 4th
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Think I made a little bit more progress this morning.
I used an EZ Drummer groove, where I could clearly hear the 2 3 clave pattern. I brought down the volume of everything except the kick mic and the snare so that I could clearly hear that 2 3 clave.
That groove is actually difficult to find in EZ Drummer.
It's in the EZX Jazz expansion package:
Pocket Midi David Haynes - Straight 4/4 - Song 4 - Hats Side Stick
Danielle
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to my ear your comping sounds more like kind of pop-strumming than traditional bossa...
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>>Think Ama7 in substitution for the F#m9 and you have Ama7 to D9......a 4th
>>Think Bbma7 in substitution for the Gm9 and you have Bbma7 to Eb9.....a 4th
Substituting a maj7 arp up three frets from a m7 (with the root on the 6th) is pretty common. Thus over an Am7 you could sub a Cmaj7 arp. I usually think about these things as positions on the neck. This is a general rule, not just for Girl From Ipanema. But, I don't know if would work for Girl from Leblon?
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I've sometimes tried to sing girl from ipanema while playing the chords on guitar (I'm not much of a singer). I've often struggled to find the correct note to start on. (without playing it by it self)
Sometimes I wanted to start on the 9th (which is correct), but sometimes my brain wants to start on the 5th.
I think it is because the chords are often played with the 5th in the bass.
I first learnt GfI from a lead sheet that said something like: Imaj7, II7, IIm7 bII7 (in some key, either F or C I think).
Then I later listend to the recording and heard he plays the fifth in the bass and I started to play it like that instead.
If I play C6add9/5 (first chord in the verse) with the voicing 3x223x the brain can register it as a G6add9 (without a third).
So if I just play the first chord and leave it upp to my brain to hear what note to start on, my brain knows the chord it is hearing is supposed to be the I chord in the key of the song.
But since the 5th is in the bass my brain might hear the I chord in C as the one chord in G.
Singin it like that sounds quite fine until you reach the second chord. (and then it doesn't sound terrible, but somehow off never the less).
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