How can someone from the US buy a guitar from a European stranger?

**Gabor** · 09-02-2020, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by Alter

There is a big difference when talking about a different country. If in your own country, the police will help in a lot of cases, as there are laws against fraud. But if in another country it is practically impossible for anything to happen legally.

You are completely right, (I am not sure in the US between different states the police cooperation is same seamless as within a state, surely there are some administrative overhead and delay, but anyway)

However this is not the point, I mean that is not a question (at least for me) that if a fraud already happen, then what would be medicine...

I am saying this, because best case is that

- I will have to spend many hours with police records and papers, going to police station or posting, providing, attaching proofs, etc
- I will have many bad hours
- My spare money is blocked in the fraud, so I can not have a guitar during a long period, probably years.
- Maybe I got back my money part of it within a years, but for this best option chance is lower than 10%

So when deciding the action it is not a point "can the police help or can not". Within a country they can, but best scenario is still bad enough to not go for it.

So my answer is prevention, regardless in-country or cross-county sale. Do not rely on police work because if fraud happens in-country consequences are so bad, that even the worst cross country consequences does not change the whole picture.

**Ol' Fret** · 09-02-2020, 07:49 AM

"Be not distrustful of strangers, lest they be angels in disguise."

An adaption of a quote by George Whitman, an American who bought Shakespeare & Company, a fabled English bookstore on the Left Bank in Paris, and a magnet for writers, poets and tourists for close to 60 years.
Whitman welcomed visitors with large-print messages on the walls, and adapted a similar quote from the bible.

Of course, you have to be alert and check the identity of a potential business partner. If he refuses to accept a safe payment at your suggestion, stay away!

**paulkogut** · 09-02-2020, 09:05 AM

The short, safe solution is to walk away from the deal unless you REALLY need this particular guitar. If you're determined, maybe find a reputable guitar shop willing to be a middle man. The Mysterious European should bring the axe in, they check it out, 'buy' it from him, tack on a fair markup for their efforts and sell it to you?

PK

**jaghut** · 09-02-2020, 09:53 AM

Just curious... what country are we talking about???

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**Wildcat** · 09-02-2020, 11:37 AM

Shady, very shady. Run, don't walk away from that "seller".

Originally Posted by sgcim

It's not through Reverb or any other online company. A friend got an email from a European dude with pictures of the guitar that he claims was given to him by a friend, so there's no receipt or anything proving he has it, other than the pictures.
How do I know this is on the level, and he won't just keep my money, and never send me the guitar?

**Wildcat** · 09-02-2020, 11:39 AM

Are you a diplomat? If not, you should be one.

Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop

Ask him to make a short phone video. But even then, if you don't feel comfortable, walk away. A lot of us in Europe are nice people, but not all. Unlike the US, where everyone is nice...

**Irishmuso** · 09-02-2020, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by sgcim

It's not through Reverb or any other online company. A friend got an email from a European dude with pictures of the guitar that he claims was given to him by a friend, so there's no receipt or anything proving he has it, other than the pictures.
How do I know this is on the level, and he won't just keep my money, and never send me the guitar?

Don't do it! But if you really, really like this guitar, find one the same that's for sale in the US through a trusted source and then consider whether you still want it. I did have great fun buying a guitar from another European country, got a cheap flight and an inexpensive hotel and had a nice little holiday into the bargain - but I saw the guitar and played it before I handed over any money.

**wintermoon** · 09-02-2020, 01:04 PM

If you doubt he owns it have him send a pic of it w a current newspaper or calendar.
If after then I really wanted it I'd take Paul's advice and have a deal set up in a reputable music shop where everything could be confirmed.

**2bornot2bop** · 09-02-2020, 02:20 PM

Ha ha. Seriously? Never, ever prepay for a guitar or anything else over the net. Always use Amex combined with PayPal. Don’t leave home without it.

**Drifter** · 09-02-2020, 04:00 PM

Do we really have more scammers today or is there just more distrust, than let's say about 30 years ago?

**Cunamara** · 09-02-2020, 04:32 PM

Well, assuming that the percentage of the population that are con artists stays about the same, the dramatic increase in the number of human beings in the last 30 years has probably increased the number of scammers. The Internet just makes it far easier for them to reach out and try to touch someone. My ISP's filters catch dozens of obvious scams every day in my email.

As for distrust, I assume anybody reaching out proactively to try to sell me something that I had not expressed interest in is trying to rip me off. That's probably occasionally unfair but I suspect most of the time is true. I feel the same way about anything advertised to me on the Internet via Target and advertising; I make it a point not to click through on ads, even to look at them if I can avoid it. I do aggressive ad filtering in my web browsers because I am so annoyed by trackers, etc.

**sgcim** · 09-02-2020, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by paulkogut

The short, safe solution is to walk away from the deal unless you REALLY need this particular guitar. If you're determined, maybe find a reputable guitar shop willing to be a middle man. The Mysterious European should bring the axe in, they check it out, 'buy' it from him, tack on a fair markup for their efforts and sell it to you?

PK

The whole story is this:
The guy calls a luthier I know, and says that a friend of his gave him a guitar that the luthier made for his friend back in1987, and he wants to know how much it's worth today. he says he hasn't played the guitar in two years, and that's why the guitar is very dusty in the pictures he has sent him.

The luthier does not know this guy who called him, but he said he sounded like a nice guy, so he called me to see if I was interested in buying it, because he knows I like the guitar. The luthier doesn't remember whom he made the guitar for 33 years ago, but he forwards the offer I made for the guitar to the seller. The seller does not get back to me for a few weeks, so I email him, asking if he's sold the guitar yet, and how much he wants for it.

The seller apologizes for not getting back to me, and says in an email that he wants in between 4.5k and 5K for the guitar, based on what the luthier said it was worth. This checked out when I checked with the luthier, so I said I was happy with the guitar, except for the metal top piece on the bridge, so I'd have to get the luthier to make an ebony bridge for it.

Again, the seller doesn't get back to me for a few weeks, but makes an offer of 4.5K including shipping after a few weeks. I call the luthier and ask him if it seems kosher, and he says the guy sounds like a nice guy, but he doesn't know him, and it's up to me.

So I send back an email to the seller telling him I'll think about the deal, and will get back to him in a few weeks, and that's where it stands now.

**paulkogut** · 09-02-2020, 05:35 PM

So an U.S. luthier, and a Euro seller? It makes some sense that the seller would reach out to the builder, so it feels more legit than someone just being contacted out of the blue...

Since the seller got the axe from a friend, and isn't a player themselves, there are even more compelling reasons to have an experienced 'middle-person' involved. Beyond just not getting scammed, my concerns would be packing, boxing, shipping, navigating customs, etc. There are certainly far less risky ways to buy a guitar, but best wishes for the transaction if this one is the one for you!

PK

**Stringswinger** · 09-02-2020, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by sgcim

The whole story is this:
The guy calls a luthier I know, and says that a friend of his gave him a guitar that the luthier made for his friend back in1987, and he wants to know how much it's worth today. he says he hasn't played the guitar in two years, and that's why the guitar is very dusty in the pictures he has sent him.

The luthier does not know this guy who called him, but he said he sounded like a nice guy, so he called me to see if I was interested in buying it, because he knows I like the guitar. The luthier doesn't remember whom he made the guitar for 33 years ago, but he forwards the offer I made for the guitar to the seller. The seller does not get back to me for a few weeks, so I email him, asking if he's sold the guitar yet, and how much he wants for it.

The seller apologizes for not getting back to me, and says in an email that he wants in between 4.5k and 5K for the guitar, based on what the luthier said it was worth. This checked out when I checked with the luthier, so I said I was happy with the guitar, except for the metal top piece on the bridge, so I'd have to get the luthier to make an ebony bridge for it.

Again, the seller doesn't get back to me for a few weeks, but makes an offer of 4.5K including shipping after a few weeks. I call the luthier and ask him if it seems kosher, and he says the guy sounds like a nice guy, but he doesn't know him, and it's up to me.

So I send back an email to the seller telling him I'll think about the deal, and will get back to him in a few weeks, and that's where it stands now.

Have him ship it to the luthier and let him come to an agreement with the luthier that it will be not released to you until you have wired hime the 4.5K. Pay the luthier a commission to broker the deal, it is worth it for peace of mind.

**Doug B** · 09-02-2020, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by Litterick

Is the guitar so special that it is worth the worry?

Has he even told us what this ultra special-can't get anywhere else -guitar is???

**wintermoon** · 09-02-2020, 09:33 PM

I'd say that's his business.

**redcap** · 09-02-2020, 10:25 PM

There are numerous companies that specialize in escrow services. Their fees are often quite reasonable, and there is minimal risk to both parties.

Here's how it generally works :

Upon agreement to the terms of the sale between buyer and seller, the buyer transfers the funds to the escrow company. The seller then ships the guitar to the buyer. Upon receipt of the guitar and confirming its stated condition, the buyer notifies the escrow company that he is satisfied with the guitar. The escrow company then transfers the funds to the seller.

**Dennis D** · 09-02-2020, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by sgcim

The whole story is this:

....... " The seller does not get back to me for a few weeks, so I email him, asking if he's sold the guitar yet, and how much he wants for it. "

** Strike One **

The seller apologizes for not getting back to me, and says in an email that he wants in between 4.5k and 5K for the guitar, based on what the luthier said it was worth.

Again, the seller doesn't get back to me for a few weeks, ** Strike Two **

Sorry to snip the 'whole story' post, but if it takes this long to hear from this guy * twice * and the money hasn't even changed hands yet, what happens if you need him after he has your money ?

Sorry but in this day and age it doesn't take weeks to return a phone call - period.

There's other guitars for sale by people who return phone calls or em's.

Just MHO.

Honest , all the best in what you decide.

**Gabor** · 09-03-2020, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by Ol' Fret

"Be not distrustful of strangers, lest they be angels in disguise."

An adaption of a quote by George Whitman, an American who bought Shakespeare & Company, a fabled English bookstore on the Left Bank in Paris, and a magnet for writers, poets and tourists for close to 60 years.
Whitman welcomed visitors with large-print messages on the walls, and adapted a similar quote from the bible.

Of course, you have to be alert and check the identity of a potential business partner. If he refuses to accept a safe payment at your suggestion, stay away!

Nice thought, this applies to

a) to real life (live) scenarios
b) human interactions and social interactions.

So I totally with you, that attidude is posotive, and probably a must for a succesful society or community.

However totally do not apply to this guitar shopping case, because

a) this is an Internet scenario or remote connection
b) business interaction

we must be careful applying nice thoughts and resist the temptation to feel good by adopting them without examining the context.