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Hi all.
I’d be really grateful for any advice.
I currently record using a Scarlett 212 and SGear but am really not happy with the results. I'm assuming that the Scarlett just isn't transparent enough and a better pre-amp to go direct is required.
I am looking to sell some gear to fund and upgrade to better recording. I’m really looking at a clean unaffected smooth jazz/jazz vibe. Having watched Barry Green detail his use of a UA Apollo Twin Interface (think he now uses a UA Dream 65 into it) and others get a great sound out of a Helix. I’m really unsure what to get. I would like to go direct and keep things simple.
I’d be really grateful for any advice from you kind folks.
Last edited by jazzdod; 03-24-2024 at 02:49 PM.
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03-24-2024 01:54 PM
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SGear seems to be a plugin, although it also may work as a stand-alone; but are you recording it currently to your computer?
What computer are you using, and which DAW are you currently using to record?
The videos sound good; are they yours, or are they indications of how you'd like to sound?
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I'd be surprised if the audio interface per se is going to make much of a difference in the sound of guitar going direct. However, the amp sim will make a difference and may be pretty subjective and up to your ear. That said, UA Apollo comes with amp sims. But there are a lot of t good amp sims you can get without spending $1k for an Apollo.
Maybe it's just the UA Dream 65 pedal that you need.
FWIW, I thought your tone sounded great on the videos you posted.
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Thanks Ukena.
No they are my videos using a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 and SGear as a plugin into a MacBook Pro.
I’d like the sound to have a bit more clarity. More like this:
Some Groove Jazz Guitar - YouTube
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When I listened to this I thought the wrong interface sounded better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et1sNiAOoyM
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Thanks fep. That’s a helpful and interesting video. I know there’s more to it too (quality of guitar etc) but there’s just something that nags at me. I’ve tried going direct without using a plugin just a bit of reverb and compression too. Maybe the UA Dream 65 will help with my existing interface, or I’m trying to achieve the impossible.
Of note I too thought the Scarlett sounded slightly clearer!
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The audio interface input gain knob is another thing to look at. Try using a lot less input gain and see if that increases your clarity when running your amp sim, even try turning the input gain all the way down and see what happens (you'll need to turn the volume up in your DAW and or your speaker or headphone volume to compensate).
That idea comes from here:
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Your MacBook Pro has a pretty good free DAW – GarageBand. It has a number of excellent plugins for guitar (and they can work alongside SGear in the DAW).
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Thanks again. That video is really interesting. I’ll give it a try in a couple of days. Goes against what I’ve been doing. I think it really is the lack of clarity that gets to me.
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Currently using a Clarett 4+ interface and Presonus Studio One DAW. Almost always mic the amp.
I’ve never had any problems with either, but I do keep things simple.
The only plugins used are eq’s, compression and time based effects, no guitar modeling.
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Be careful with the UA stuff.
I bought the Apollo Twin (solo) and discovered that it's only powerful enough to run 3 basic effects at once.
You really need a 6 engine or 8 engine for longevity.
They also have an online feature now which I think is going to be the way all these companies go.
Try checking that out first.
UA is a money pit and they most definitely see you as their cash cow. That being said, their stuff is really good.
The best sound I’ve achieved direct from guitar to D/I though (without effects) is from a Apogee. They just make pickups sound really nice where UA seem a bit sterile.
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I use a Focusrite Scarlett Solo Gen 3 USB interface on a Windows 11 computer.
Reaper is my DAW of choice. It works on Windows, Mac, and Linux. You can try it for 60 days, no questions asked, and it is only 60$ if you chose to keep it. Money well spent. Mac users are privileged to have Garage Band, but the amp sim plugin I like to use comes free with Reaper.
When I record archtop or nylon strings guitars, I use a Lewitt LCT-14AIR small condenser microphone which is not expensive and good enough, considering I record at home in a room which is not acoustically treated. Small condenser microphones don't pick up too much of the ambient noise, like cars passing on the street, and fridge compressor. The microphone is connected to Input 1 of the interface. I plug the guitar into Input 2, with the "instrument" button pressed (hi-z). I record on two grouped tracks at once. Like you, I want to keep my setup simple. It is easier to figure out, when something goes wrong. Input 1 records the woody sound of the instrument. Input 2 records the pickup.
I am far from an expert, but I don't think the brand of interface, computer or the DAW you chose has much to do with the quality of digital recording. In fact Focusrite has a good reputation and there must be a reason why it is so popular. The thing for me is to learn how to get the best out of the gear I already have. I try to protect myself from GAS, which is a fast spreading desease.
Good recording is trial and error, especially for us, beginners. I have found that the position of the microphone is very important. The input gain on the interface is crucial too. I aim for between -18db and -12db. The signal is strong enough, while leaving headroom for mixing. Most of the time, if it sounds like crap, the gain is too high.
As the effects (amp sim) are applied post-recording, I have learned not to expect too much from the raw recording. Most of the time, it is a big deception. Magic happens at mixing stage. Once I am done with recording, I select an amp, cabinet and microphone in the plugin, and tweak those. Next, I will add a compressor, an eq, and some reverb. Sometimes delay and chorus. Panning the two tracks will widen the stereo image.
Mixing is not easy, and is an art in itself, which takes years, if not decades to master. I do my best, while understanding I am no sound engineer, and will never be. The important for me is having fun. Recording helps me a lot being a little better guitarist.
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Thanks for taking the time to reply in detail folks.I only really intend to record guitar with minimal effects (just reverb and a little delay). I'll look into and try these ideas and suggestions on what to use. Using/mixing in a mic may be a good idea and I really appreciate your recommendations.
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MCh, great post, lots of good info. Cheers...
Originally Posted by MCh
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Think I’m starting to get better results with a lower input looking at between -12 and -18 db as you good folks suggested. I’ve still tried a combination of ways to record using a Blig Amp1 with Bluebox and plugins from SGear and Logic. Also DI in and still have this lack of clarity. I’m still suspecting the budget interface is the common denominator and for some reason I am now considering an Apogee Duet.
im not really into GAS but really would like a good sound.
Those who mic their amps what mic are you using?
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Originally Posted by jazzdod
I am happy to learn that you get better results. Congratulations! Having the right signal strength, not too loud, not too quiet is a good starting point.
Next step is finding an amp sim that brings you close to the tone you have in mind. Tweak the amp sim EQ to taste. However, the amp is only part of the equation. You will find that you need a cab sim to get a decent tone. Some amp plugins have them. Others, not. Cab sims usually come with microphone sims and convolution reverb too, like Two Notes Genome, which is a fantastic product. Often, when the sound is not good, it is because we use no cab sim. To me, they are essential, at least for electric guitars. Another thing that can muddy the tone is too much reverb.
Once you have the amp and the cab sim, next thing is to use a parametric EQ for fine tuning. This plugin comes free with most DAWs, so, theres is no need to spend money here. Parametric EQ may seem complicated, but they are not. There's a learning curve, for sure, but it is not too steep.
First thing I do is a hi-pass at around 80-100Hz, sometimes more for acoustic guitars. This cuts the very low frequencies which are of no interest for a guitar (boomy tone), especially if you want to avoid competition with an eventual bass track. Next, you could try a hi-shelf at around 3000-3500Hz, if the high end need a little boost. If the tone is muddy, it usually happens around 200Hz for electrical guitars, 400Hz for acoustic guitars. You might want to lower that a few dBs. Sometimes the high mids need to be slightly boosted, for clarity. The last step is getting rid of disturbing frequencies. Spot them by boosting and swiping a band with a very narrow Q. Once they are located, bring them down.
A 4 to 1 compressor (I place it before the EQ) could improve results.
All this may seem very technical, but there is plenty of information on the Internet. Basics can be learned rapidly without too much involvment.
Monitors could be the culprit too. Good flat response monitors are important for a decent mix. Monitors do not have to be overly expensive. For a home studio, Yamaha, Rokit, Adam or Focal will get you there, hopefully without digging too big a hole in one's wallet. Like, if you use hi-fi equipment for mixing, or cheap headphones, do not expect miracles. Listen to your mix on different equipement for a better idea: on monitors, headphones, in your car, on your home stereo equipment, on your phone, whatever you have. Try to find the sweet spot that will sound good in all kinds of situation. Once you nail it, save it as a master preset and reuse it, in order not to have to redo it every time.
About using a microphone for your amp, I would suggest a Shure SM-57. They are affordable and are an insdustry standard. All studios have them. In a pinch the SM-57 could be used to record acoustic guitar too although it is not the best for that situation. I prefer small or large condenser (cardioid) microphones for that. If you chose to mic your amp, be aware that there is a trade: this cannot be adjusted, once recorded. Amp sims are post FX, so there's more latitude for changes afterwards.
I hope it helps.
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If you want to use a mic'd sound rather than a sim, quality gear is a prerequisite. Cheap gear usually won't sound good. I also recommend a condenser mic if you want the sound to be accurate. Dynamic mics don't capture the sound in the room, they make it extremely bassy. They're designed for show volume level to be able to capture a usable sound. However if you want a bassy sound, that can be useful to use a dynamic mic. Otherwise, if you want a clear sound, use a condenser.
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Thanks again for your detailed responses. It’s really much appreciated. Think you’ve explained some valuable ideas to put into practice and I’ll give these a go when next recording. I’ll also look into the mic suggestions too.
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Most of this is over my head, but I do record with a 2i2, with Reaper. The unadulterated sound, sounds just like my guitar. I've never had the thought that the preamp was not sufficiently transparent.
Caveats include partially compromised hearing and maybe just being more accepting of a suboptimal sound. But, it does sound okay to me and I've had tracks made like that on the radio.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Ah! Bare bones simplicity| I like that! I bet you are a very good guitarist, aren't you?
When I started to play, I tought I needed a ton of pedals and effects to sound good. When I was not happy, with my tone, it was always because I had the wrong guitar, the wrong string gauge or the wrong pedal
)...
The more I play the less I have gear around. I can't wait for the day when I will be satisfied with a simple acoustic guitar. But I am not there yet, unfortunately. I'm working on it, tho.
My sister is into baroque instruments. She records herself on a 4-tracks Tascam on the corner of the table. With deceptively good results. She says I make my life complicated for no reason. I think she's right.
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Strange about mics. I have nothing over the top, price wise but can get a pretty darn good tone with them…with quite a bit of work, on positioning especially.
In the locker:
-AKG C214
-AT4041
-Sterling ST170 Ribbon (surprisingly accurate)
-AT2035
-Sterling ST55
-Sterling ST33
The first two in combination are great for acoustic guitars or adding the acoustic qualities of a hollow body, but I haven’t been able to get an acceptable mic’d amp tone from them…probably my lack of experience.
That AT2035 is “somewhat capable” at many tasks…who wants “somewhat capable”, right!?!
Now the strange part; With these “cheap” Sterling mics solo or in various combinations, I get some really convincing tones. That little ST170 sounds like my amp, with very little added eq. The ST33 is somewhere between a large and a small diaphragm mic and seems to be the most forgiving for positioning. The ST55 can sound really good…or like cardboard with just slight repositioning.
-Bottom line; in my limited experience, micing an amp is “almost” all about the position of the mic.
And never, ever say “I’ll fix it in the DAW. You must “Get It Right At The Source” or GIRATS as Joe Gilder from “Home Studio Corner” preaches. He’s right! His course as well as the “Home Recording Made Easy” courses are well worth the investment. It comes from the “Hobby” budget, right!
(I have no affiliation with either. I just appreciate what those guys have done for me as far as an education goes.)
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On mics, one more thing.
If you do use two, check your phasing.
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[QUOTE=Jimmy Smith;1331546]If you want to use a mic'd sound rather than a sim, quality gear is a prerequisite. Cheap gear usually won't sound good. I also recommend a condenser mic if you want the sound to be accurate. Dynamic mics don't capture the sound in the room, they make it extremely bassy. They're designed for show volume level to be able to capture a usable sound. However if you want a bassy sound, that can be useful to use a dynamic mic. Otherwise, if you want a clear sound, use a condenser.[/QUOTE
The problem with so called quality gear is that it is out of reach for most of us. A quality microphone will sometimes be more expensive than your average guitar. When you record yourself in the bedroom, it is probably overkill. I think microphones like Shure SM-75, or some models from Lewitt or AKG can give you a decent result without breaking the bank.
I agree with you that the SM-75 is more geared towards low frequencies. The condenser type will reveal more subtilities in the highs. Microphone positioning is important. It can alleviate that bassy problem. SM-75 is cheap and versatile. It is the jack-all-trades of microphones. You can use it for amps, drums, etc. If you drop it on the floor, it won't break your heart. No wonder it is everywhere. Is it the best? No. Will it get the job done? Yes, I think. If you have to have only one microphone, a small condenser mic. might be a better choice for home recording.
If your room is not soundproof and acoustically treated (probably the case for most of us), a big condenser microphone will catch some of ambient noise and room reverberation. For me, it is not desirable. I prefer a raw, dry take, so I can add post FX reverberation.
Using microphones with an amp is a bedroom is not an easy undertaking. In studios they place the cabinet with the microphone(s) in a special enclosure. Forget about your tube combo. You will want the amp head within arm's reach for adjustments. Besides, it it at risk of overheating in the enclosure. One can always make do in the walk-in...
Anyways, before spending money on microphones, a music store around your place may rent gear. Bring some home for a couple of days an see if it makes you happy.
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In my view, 'cheap' recording gear these days is pretty good but there is still a bit of a learning curve involved. Gain staging is one area to get familiar with, and using the various settings on the interface. Make sure you have the Instrument (not Line) selected on the 2i2. I have been using Focusrite (currently 4i4 3rdGen) with Reaper as the DAW on Win11 and S-Gear for many years with outstanding results. S-Gear is in my opinion one of the best and easiest to use amp sims. I also use Helix Native, so many options.
I have lately been getting into EQ plug-ins and can recommend the 'free' ToneBoosters EQ (works in Demo mode but you can't save presets, but it's fairly cheap to buy).
I suggest to dive a bit deeper into the Focusrite/S-Gear/DAW issues, there is so much to learn/master.
BTW - S-Gear also has a Overdrive/Boost option (as well as Compressor), the Boost with a Gain of 0 (or very low) will also help to brighten the sound somewhat.
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I just use the line out on my DV Mark Little Jazz, into the line input on a Focusrite 2i2, into Reaper on my PC. In Reaper I usually just add a bit of convolution reverb, sometimes I add a bit of compression or EQ if it helps the mix. I don’t worry too much over input levels etc., I just go by what looks/sounds right.
All sounds ok to me, I would not spend money on anything more expensive. I think it would just be diminishing returns.
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