MuseScore or ... ?

**doc w** · 09-22-2023, 11:07 AM

Is MuseScore still free? I was using it for a while and now I am getting issues of compatibility - version 4 versus version 3. Can anyone suggest other similar software? For now I am just doing jazz lead sheets.

**John A.** · 09-22-2023, 01:49 PM

Musescore (the scoring software) is still free. Subscriptions to the site that allow you access scores posted (and post) there are not free.

**sgcim** · 09-22-2023, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by doc w

Is MuseScore still free? I was using it for a while and now I am getting issues of compatibility - version 4 versus version 3. Can anyone suggest other similar software? For now I am just doing jazz lead sheets.

Like John A said it's still free, but don't try to write the same piece of music combining version 3 and 4. Stick with one version.
Version 4 was all messed up when they first brought it out, but they've done a few revisions on it, and now it's all I use.
I've done almost 70 big band charts on MS.

**rpjazzguitar** · 09-23-2023, 10:44 AM

I've had some trouble with compatibility between the two versions, but I moved to 4. I can't speak to how well it is now debugged, but when I first got it, it was buggy. Version 3 was solid (but I didn't have it when it first came out).

**sgcim** · 12-19-2023, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

I've had some trouble with compatibility between the two versions, but I moved to 4. I can't speak to how well it is now debugged, but when I first got it, it was buggy. Version 3 was solid (but I didn't have it when it first came out).

They just did a major update to the guitar sounds yesterday in MS 4.2 One is microtona; bends, which I don't care about, but they have new clean sounds that might be good for jazz. I'll check it out tonight. Let me know what you think.

**ewall** · 12-19-2023, 07:50 PM

You would think that able programmers would be able to incorporate older scores into the current Muse version. But what do I know?

**Bop Head** · 12-19-2023, 09:46 PM

1. Musescore is not only free but also open source.

2. Musescore is getting better with each version. I have not tried out 4.2 myself but there seem to be many new guitar specific things. This is a review from a website dealing with professional musical notation. Musescore is used by professionals as an alternative to Sibelius, Finale and Dorico.

https://www.scoringnotes.com/news/musescore-4-2/

3. "Able programmers": many of those are volunteers. You could play a part yourself in the development by reporting bugs at Github.

4. To get around compatibility problems you could try to export and import a score as MusicXML. Have not tried that one myself.

On a side-note: Muse Group has just acquired Hal Leonhard Publishing ...

https://www.scoringnotes.com/news/mu...s-hal-leonard/

**sgcim** · 12-20-2023, 05:17 PM

I tried it last night on a new score I just started working on. Its still got a twangy sound to it, but I didn't listen to it in isolation; just voiced in unison with the piano.
I can isolate it and check it out agin, but I think the improvements were done on the acoustic guitar setting, not the electric like I was using.
I'll check that out tonight.

joelf · 12-20-2023, 08:45 PM

Does anyone here use StaffPad?

I've been threatening to get it for the longest, and finally will shortly. For me it trumps the others---though they're all good---only b/c I can write right on an e-staff, so I won't lose that tactile sense that I would using, say, Sibelius. I don't feature the extra steps of entering notes on a computer or even piano keyboard. It's just easier for me is all, after years of composing and writing by hand.

I have to do something b/c I have so much music. lead sheets; arrangements; my pieces so stuffed in file cabinets they won't even stay straight top to bottom. I went through all the non-original charts yesterday looking for a sheet. There's so much music there and it was out of alphabetical order. I had to put everything right and it took hours, with some sheets still sitting on top of a cabinet. Don't need that noise anymore. Time to join the 21st century, already in progress. (At least I found the sheet I was looking for---after a while).

I also have a project to do getting all my tunes and pieces ready to be published in book form with a companion CD, hopefully with name people on it. (I envision marketing them to colleges with jazz programs). I was very lucky in Philly to have a student, young and adept at Finale, put almost my entire catalog in it. But that's no excuse for me not learning. And no way can you give handwritten music to publishers or even young musicians anymore---that's just reality. I do miss handwriting, everyone's, b/c I learned so much checking out various composers I know, and everyone's is different. James Chirillo had great looking charts and taught me some stuff, but even he uses Sibelius almost exclusively these days. No sense holding on to the old ways like a composing Unabomber.

So I see the advantages of having music one can look up in a flash, email anywhere in the world, playback, etc., etc. though I really will miss the variety of hand-scoring styles. I don't love the cookie-cutterness of the digital world and ways, but we go on and adapt where necessary. (Maybe some egghead will come up with more individualized fonts and style options? It would be great if each composer could really put a unique fingerprint on his or her work.)

I have an Asus laptop on its last legs, an iPad I need to learn how to use, and plan to get a Mac Airbook and synch it with my iPad and new iPhone. There'll be quite a learning curve, but I'll deal with it. (3 weeks in, the iphone is a major pain in the ass and complicated as hell to me---but I won't be defeated by it, instead learn it so it serves my needs.) On a Mac you can use StaffPad with an Apple Pencil. Not sure about iPads, but I'll look into it.

I may have to appeal for help here or elsewhere, but I aim to do this.

(And keep the pencil sheets to be archived when I become famous, probably after I 'shuffle off'---LOL)

**Bop Head** · 12-21-2023, 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by sgcim

I tried it last night on a new score I just started working on. Its still got a twangy sound to it, but I didn't listen to it in isolation; just voiced in unison with the piano.
I can isolate it and check it out agin, but I think the improvements were done on the acoustic guitar setting, not the electric like I was using.
I'll check that out tonight.

Aren't there new sounds downloadable from Musehub? Did you install Musescore with Musehub?

**Bop Head** · 12-21-2023, 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by joelf

Does anyone here use StaffPad? I've been threatening to get it for the longest, and finally will shortly. For me it trumps the others---though they're all good---only b/c I can write right on an e-staff, so I won't lose that tactile sense that I would using, say, Sibelius. I don't feature the extra steps of entering notes on a computer or even piano keyboard. It's just easier for me is all, after years of composing and writing by hand. I have to do something b/c I have so much music. lead sheets; arrangements; my pieces so stuffed in file cabinets they won't even stay straight top to bottom. I went through all the non-original charts yesterday looking for a sheet. There's so much music there and it was out of alphabetical order. I had to put everything right and it took hours, with some sheets still sitting on top of a cabinet. Don't need that noise anymore. Time to join the 21st century, already in progress. (At least I found the sheet I was looking for---after a while). I also have a project to do getting all my tunes and pieces ready to be published in book form with a companion CD, hopefully with name people on it. (I envision marketing them to colleges with jazz programs). I was very lucky in Philly to have a student, young and adept at Finale, put almost my entire catalog in it. But that's no excuse for me not learning. And no way can you give handwritten music to publishers or even young musicians anymore---that's just reality. I do miss handwriting, everyone's, b/c I learned so much checking out various composers I know, and everyone's is different. James Chirillo had great looking charts and taught me some stuff, but even he uses Sibelius almost exclusively these days. No sense holding on to the old ways like a composing Unabomber. So I see the advantages of having music one can look up in a flash, email anywhere in the world, playback, etc., etc. though I really will miss the variety of hand-scoring styles and don't love the cookie-cutterness of the digital way. (Maybe some egghead will come up with more individualized fonts and style options? It would be great if each composer could really put a unique fingerprint on his work.) I have an Asus laptop on its last legs, an iPad I need to learn how to use, and plan to get a Mac Airbook and synch it with my iPad and new iPhone. There'll be quite a learning curve, but I'll deal with it. (3 weeks in, the iphone is a major pain in the ass and complicated as hell to me---but I won't be defeated by it, instead learn it so it serves my needs.) On a Mac you can use StaffPad with an Apple Pencil. Not sure about iPads, but I'll look into it. I may have to appeal for help here or elsewhere, but I aim to do this. (And keep the pencil sheets to be archived when I become famous, probably after I 'shuffle off'---LOL)

Once again: MusicXML is the lingua franca between notation / engraving applications. Don't be afraid. You do not have to write MusicXML files like the example in the wiki article like a programmer in a text editor yourself.

Here is list of software able to write and read MusicXML: Software - MusicXML

StaffPad can import and export obviously. I haven't tried it myself but I will as I recently bought a cheap used 10" tablet (15 EUR incl. cover) to be able to install iReal Pro*) and Drumgenius.

*) Side note: I went to a manouche (gipsy jazz) session yesterday and every tune someone did not know was played off iReal.

EDIT: Regarding Finale -- I detest those software subscription models for the extended non-free versions. You pay monthly for the licence to use the proprietary software that you do not own. That is why I like open source software like Musescore or Lilypond.

Here is a comparison chart for Sibelius. Maybe the free version suits your needs.

Comparison - Music Composer Software - Sibelius

EDIT: I just realized that I cannot use StaffPad with my Android tablet

Windows Surface and iOS only ...

EDIT: Somehow the Sibelius comparison chart link got lost. Here it is.

Comparison - Music Composer Software - Sibelius

joelf · 12-21-2023, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by Bop Head

Once again: MusicXML is the lingua franca between notation / engraving applications. Don't be afraid. You do not have to write MusicXML files like the example in the wiki article like a programmer in a text editor yourself.

Here is list of software able to write and read MusicXML: Software - MusicXML

StaffPad can import and export obviously. I haven't tried it myself but I will as I recently bought a cheap used 10" tablet (15 EUR incl. cover) to be able to install iReal Pro*) and Drumgenius.

*) Side note: I went to a manouche (gipsy jazz) session yesterday and every tune someone did not know was played off iReal.

EDIT: Regarding Finale -- I detest those software subscription models for the extended non-free versions. You pay monthly for the licence to use the proprietary software that you do not own. That is why I like open source software like Musescore or Lilypond.

Here is a comparison chart for Sibelius. Maybe the free version suits your needs.

Comparison - Music Composer Software - Sibelius

EDIT: I just realized that I cannot use StaffPad with my Android tablet

Windows Surface and iOS only ...

I don't understand much of what you wrote, though I know you mean to help and appreciate where you're coming from. Dig your passion, too.

However, I've never heard of any of this stuff and just want to keep it simple. It's kind of overwhelming, and I just want one, and only one, that I can use which won't drive me bonkers (and I admit I don't have far to go!) Please take pity on a 69-year-old techno-simp who wants to try to change his ways---at least just enough to get by in a world he doesn't understand but has to live in. Also, please do not assume that I know the technical nomenclature. (I was able to figure out 'import and export' at least---duuuhh).

So I'm going to stick to my plan and go with StaffPad, backing up the files this time, so I don't lose them like I lost an entire book (about the JCT among other things, as a matter of fact) in a crashed hard drive w/o backup. And I'll keep the pencil handy to jot down ideas right as they come w/o the extra step of getting to a computer first---and 'just because'...

**Bop Head** · 12-21-2023, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by joelf

I don't understand much of what you wrote, though I know you mean to help and appreciate where you're coming from. Dig your passion, too.

However, I've never heard of any of this stuff and need to keep it simple. Please take pity on a 69-year-old techno-simp who at least wants to try to change his ways.

So I'm going to stick to my plan and go with StaffPad---and keep the pencil handy for crashes and such---and 'just because'...

My post was not very clearly written.

First of all one important thing:

StaffPad is for tablets only. Either from Apple (iPad) or Microsoft (their tablet is called Windows Surface). It will not run on the MacBook Air laptop! (And not on my Android tablet, Android is the operating system used by most smartphones which are not from Apple.)

Then regarding Finale and MusicXML:

MusicXML is an industry standard data interchange format for music scores. Finale can export a score as a MusicXML file which you can open in StaffPad. Which means you can open your Finale scores made by your student in Staffpad without having to rewrite them. Normally Finale and StaffPad each store their scores in their own proprietary format of which the other program cannot make use of. But if you save the score in the MusicXML file format you can open it in any program that can work with MusicXML.

How good that data exchange works between Finale and StaffPad I cannot tell. There might be some editing necessary after the import of the MusicXML file. But at least you will not have to write everything from scratch.

I hope I was clearer now.

BTW I watched a video on the StaffPad website. Seems like a very nice concept to be able to write with a "pen" directly onto an electronic score. Probably much more intuitive for you than other software options.

joelf · 12-21-2023, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by Bop Head

My post was not very clearly written.

First of all one important thing:

StaffPad is for tablets only. Either from Apple (iPad) or Microsoft (their tablet is called Windows Surface). It will not run on the MacBook Air laptop! (And not on my Android tablet, Android is the operating system used by most smartphones which are not from Apple.)

Then regarding Finale and MusicXML:

MusicXML is an industry standard data interchange format for music scores. Finale can export a score as a MusicXML file which you can open in StaffPad. Which means you can open your Finale scores made by your student in Staffpad without having to rewrite them. Normally Finale and StaffPad each store their scores in their own proprietary format of which the other program cannot make use of. But if you save the score in the MusicXML file format you can open it in any program that can work with MusicXML.

How good that data exchange works between Finale and StaffPad I cannot tell. There might be some editing necessary after the import of the MusicXML file. But at least you will not have to write everything from scratch.

I hope I was clearer now.

BTW I watched a video on the StaffPad website. Seems like a very nice concept to be able to write with a "pen" directly onto an electronic score. Probably much more intuitive for you than other software options.

Now you're talkin', bro! Great to know I can convert the Finale files---now I just gotta learn how! How do you export? Is there a tariff (rimshot)?

Save the score in the MusicXML file format? Edumicate me, kind sir.

From what I hear about StaffPad, one needs an 'active touchscreen'. I believe I have one even on this woebegotten Asus. Just need an e-stylus. and the Apple thingie for the iPad.

And I did hear that StaffPad can be used on Macs, with an Apple Pencil. Maybe I'm wrong, but to me it wouldn't make sense for an omnivore company like Apple to shut itself off from more $. (Or would it?).

At any rate, I could do the job on one, and 'communicate' it to the other machines. Like a Twilight Zone update of Conference of the Birds!

joelf · 12-21-2023, 07:36 AM

Also, that student emailed me every score we did in our collaboration. I just need to know where to store and have access to them. I can't use Word for PDFs anymore b/c the rotten so-and-sos put up both a pay and security wall I can't penetrate. So it's 'read only'.

But I downloaded a free program, LibreOffice, in self-defense. Maybe I could 'export' all my Word files to that (that includes song lyrics of my own and others, letters to the editor, marriage proposals, death threats [not really on the last 2])?

But please don't tell me I have to extract them all individually---unless you want to make a nice Jewish boy cry.

Finally, how do I get MusicXML? A free download? (YEEEESSS!!!!)

**grahambop** · 12-21-2023, 09:58 AM

Are you saying you have a load of old Finale files but you don’t have the actual Finale program?

(If you do have Finale, it’s easy, it has a menu option to export the file in XML format.)

If you don’t have Finale, you may be able to download the free Finale Notepad program and see if it has the XML export function. (I don’t know whether it does, I used to have it years ago and I can’t remember, I know it had some limitations).

joelf · 12-21-2023, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Are you saying you have a load of old Finale files but you don’t have the actual Finale program?

(If you do have Finale, it’s easy, it has a menu option to export the file in XML format.)

If you don’t have Finale, you may be able to download the free Finale Notepad program and see if it has the XML export function. (I don’t know whether it does, I used to have it years ago and I can’t remember, I know it had some limitations).

Correct. Don't have the software.

Thanks again for the info. Off to start my day, talk soon (:

**Bop Head** · 12-21-2023, 11:06 AM

^ Like grahambop said.

Maybe you could ask the student to do the export to MusicXML for you.
So in case the export from the free version does not work you do not have to buy (or rather rent) one of the full versions of Finale if you want to end up using StaffPad anyway.

Regarding export: You find that function usually either as "export" literally or as "save as" in the same part of the menu where you find the normal "save" function of a program.

**grahambop** · 12-21-2023, 12:00 PM

As far as I can tell from the blurb on the Finale website, the Notepad program has XML import/export, at least that’s what the description implies.

**FwLineberry** · 12-21-2023, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Bop Head

EDIT: Regarding Finale -- I detest those software subscription models for the extended non-free versions. You pay monthly for the licence to use the proprietary software that you do not own.

There are plenty of reasons to detest Finale, but being a lease software is not one of them. Finale has never been on a subscription model. I've owned it outright since 1997. These days I only upgrade if they come out with a feature I've just got to have. I recently upgraded to the latest version for a one-time fee.

.

joelf · 12-21-2023, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Bop Head

^ Like grahambop said.

Maybe you could ask the student to do the export to MusicXML for you.

Maybe. Thanks.

No biggie anyway: most of it's done. If I have new stuff, done on StaffPad, to send to a publisher for the book let their tech monkeys figure it out.

That's why they're making the big money---ha ha...

**RJVB** · 12-21-2023, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by ewall

You would think that able programmers would be able to incorporate older scores into the current Muse version. But what do I know?

MS4 can import MS3 scores, it's the opposite that isn't possible (and has been deemed unnecessary). Personally I have an issue with that (as with lease-software), even if it can be traced back to a "but it's free bro" kind of argument. I haven't checked the exact system requirements but I strongly suspect that MS4 will not officially run on my Mac (which is limited to OS X 10.13).

Exporting to an older version via MXL tends to be a lossy process, sadly.

**Bop Head** · 12-21-2023, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by FwLineberry

There are plenty of reasons to detest Finale, but being a lease software is not one of them. Finale has never been on a subscription model. I've owned it outright since 1997. These days I only upgrade if they come out with a feature I've just got to have. I recently upgraded to the latest version for a one-time fee.

.

Have you really read the terms? You do not own proprietary software.

**docsteve** · 12-21-2023, 03:17 PM

You don’t ever own any software, unless you have actually written it. All you do is take out a license to use the software – either a permanent license or a term-based license. The first is known as buying software, the second is known as leasing software. In reality however, you don’t buy or lease the software, just the permission to use it.

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joelf · 12-21-2023, 04:13 PM

Hate Finale? Isn't that a tad over the top?

It's frustrating is a classier way of putting it IMO.

But I can relate: just tried to get cartridges in a new Canon all-in-one. No dice, error messages. Canon happens to be very good about customer support. The tech guy only had me reinstall the cartridges a few times---didn't bust my balls---and Canon will send me another printer. I send back the troubled one free with their shipping label. A pretty damn good deal. But was I cursing up a storm at the beginning!

It's easy to hate on what's over our heads. But what good does that do anyone---or the karma?

If you have Finale and can't work it right they must have tech support, no? Me, I'd never buy anything that's too much work, being the archetypal nervous Jew...