Will Someone Tell Me Again Why We Should Not Use Band in a Box?

**AlsoRan** · 08-10-2018, 09:20 AM

I am a bedroom player who somtimes jams with other musicians in small settings. BIAB, otherwise known as the Band-In-A-Box software for those who don't know, has been a Godsend for me.

Playing guitar is a hobby and one that I cannot indulge in the way that I'd like. Playing JAZZ guitar requires more than just memorizing and then regurgitating with good execution since you are pulling music out of your head.

Since my improvisation is based on shapes, and knowing how the notes relate to one another, BIAB gives me invaluable opportunities to improvise on different chords using the different shapes that I have been able to memorize, and dare I say, internalize.

JensL, a forum member has a video that cautions against using BIAB. I probably need to see it again and hear his opinion, since he has a good record of giving advice and instruction.

So what are your reasons for arguing against using BIAB? For me, I would be completely lost without it.

**mr. beaumont** · 08-10-2018, 09:25 AM

My gripe with BIAB is just the time it takes to punch in a tune...my practice time is limited, so I'd much rather use iReal, even though it doesn't sound as good.

I suspect Jens' warning would be about tracks in general, not just BIAB...the risk is it becomes guitareoke...which is only bad if the goal is to play with others...then you can hear people who only practiced with tracks, because they don't interact...

My take on the whole thing is like what you eat, a practice regimen should be balanced.

**vintagelove** · 08-10-2018, 10:15 AM

I’m 100% positive every historical great, while they were coming up, polishing their chops alone in their shed/bedroom, etc. would have given a toe to be able to have an on demand band.

Theyre extremely helpful tools.

**AlsoRan** · 08-10-2018, 10:17 AM

Great answer, Mr. B!

It took me awhile to understand that just being able to play a nice solo and to comp is just part of the picture. Jazz (and IMHO, music) at its highest form is when there is that spontaneous interaction.

I can still remember how much I loved it when I was a young concert goer, or when watching music taped live, seeing the musicians interact and maybe even wink or not at each other. I could especially see this in the Blues, how the artists would work together to control the intensity of the song and the individual solos, as well as the rhythm section's comping.

I need to check out ol' Jensl's video when I get a free moment to hear his thoughts. I am going to bet they align with yours.

**fep** · 08-10-2018, 10:23 AM

Being a BIAB user, I think it's a great tool.

Interacting with musicians is great if you have the opportunity to play with good musicians. Interacting with crappy musicians sucks though. I'd just rather not play with crappy musicians that don't listen anyways. The interacting with good musicians is a failed argument for many as that opportunity just doesn't exist. And if it does the whole logistics, hassle and time spent can be a pain in the ass.

For me the risk of BIAB is being too one dimensional in your practice. Since I write, I want to understand the rhythm section and perform those parts myself. In particular bass and rhythm guitar and sometimes (seldom) piano and drums/percussion. So, I just occasionally use BIAB to work on chops. I spend lots of time recording with my DAW, that's were my focus is these days. I do steal drum parts from BIAB for my songwriting, the real drum tracks. I really suck at the drums. (It's not legally stealing in that when you buy BIAB you have license to do that.)

**AlsoRan** · 08-10-2018, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by fep

Being a BIAB user, I think it's a great tool.

Interacting with musicians is great if you have the opportunity to play with good musicians. Interacting with crappy musicians sucks though. I'd just rather not play with crappy musicians that don't listen anyways. The interacting with good musicians is a failed argument for many as that opportunity just doesn't exist. And if it does the whole logistics, hassle and time spent can be a pain in the ass.

For me the risk of BIAB is being too one dimensional in your practice. Since I write, I want to understand the rhythm section and perform those parts myself. In particular bass and rhythm guitar and sometimes (seldom) piano and drums/percussion. So, I just occasionally use BIAB to work on chops. I spend lots of time recording with my DAW, that's were my focus is these days. I do steal drum parts from BIAB for my songwriting, the real drum tracks. I really suck at the drums. (It's not legally stealing in that when you buy BIAB you have license to do that.)

First Point: This conversation has convinced me that I need to try and react to BIAB's rhythm section as a way or practiing interaction and having full control of what I am playing.

Second Point: I too like to try and play bass lines and some piano to because it is fun and I like those instruments, too.

Lat Point: I also "steal" BIABs drum tracks. I have EZ drummer2 and it is limited. I also poorly spent some money on Superior Drummer during a sale. I was never able to master it, so for my Jazz and Latin songs, I use BIAB.

**princeplanet** · 08-10-2018, 11:18 AM

You can program the real tracks to include a maximum amount of variations. You can even change the styles, endlessly (there are almost too many Jazz styles to choose from) The harmonic variations are random and can keep you on your toes, sometimes b13, sometimes #11, or #9. You can punch in a 32 bar form 8 times before any repeats. If you start to memorise what the band is doing, you change style...

No, it's not like playing with an actual band, but while you're building your chops, it's better! You get to loop the band for one, 2, 4, 8 bars etc, slow it down or speed up, change to any key. The greats used to play along with records, then later with the Aebersolds.

Don't believe the hype, backing tracks are more friend than foe. Of course, if you already have chops, and you have the option to practice with real musicians or BIAB, then yeah, go for it. But for most folks on this site I'm guessing there's far more to gain than to lose with BIAB. Jens, I think you mean well, man, but for the most part, I reckon you're wrong to issue a blanket warning against practicing with backing tracks. if it helps to get way more people to the point where they're ready to have their ass kicked on the band stage, that can be only a good thing. The missing spontaneity (which irks the pros) can wait and will come in time....

**grahambop** · 08-10-2018, 11:37 AM

Playing along with records can be great fun, especially practising comping. Feels like you're right there in Miles' band (or whoever you choose!).

**AlsoRan** · 08-10-2018, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Playing along with records can be great fun, especially practising comping. Feels like you're right there in Miles' band (or whoever you choose!).

For sure!

I just recently figured out how to include a BIAB solo for selected choruses, so now I can practice comping AND soloing over one tune.

It can really be gratifying for yours truly when I can start fluidly pulling lines out of my head.

**Skip Ellis** · 08-10-2018, 02:00 PM

If it were not for backing tracks, I would not still be playing out. Music is D-E-A-D dead in my area. It's either electric blues or tiki bar music or you don't play and the local jazz club is clique-ish and beyond snooty. I work an oldies duo with a great singer using karaoke and home brew BIAB tracks - I play rhythm and some lead guitar and run the computer - it's not the most satisfying in a musical sense, but, at least, we're still out there at 73 years old playing music we like for people who like to hear what we do and I get to slip in the occasional Great American Songbook tune at some point during the evening. Some of us don't have the big city luxury of a large pool of good musicians and have to make do with what we have. I've done solo instrumental (behind the ferns) gigs using only BIAB tracks (mostly bass and drums) with great results. No, it's not the best scenario but I'm not playing at the house for the dog - I can't do that - I've got to have an audience or I can't play, so I'll do whatever it takes. Besides, after being in this business for the better part of fifty years as both a businessman and player, I really don' t like musicians very much (with rare exceptions) and would much rather do a solo gig at a nursing home or restaurant. Of course, YMMV.

**AlsoRan** · 08-10-2018, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by Skip Ellis

If it were not for backing tracks, I would not still be playing out. Music is D-E-A-D dead in my area. It's either electric blues or tiki bar music or you don't play and the local jazz club is clique-ish and beyond snooty. I work an oldies duo with a great singer using karaoke and home brew BIAB tracks - I play rhythm and some lead guitar and run the computer - it's not the most satisfying in a musical sense, but, at least, we're still out there at 73 years old playing music we like for people who like to hear what we do and I get to slip in the occasional Great American Songbook tune at some point during the evening. Some of us don't have the big city luxury of a large pool of good musicians and have to make do with what we have. I've done solo instrumental (behind the ferns) gigs using only BIAB tracks (mostly bass and drums) with great results. No, it's not the best scenario but I'm not playing at the house for the dog - I can't do that - I've got to have an audience or I can't play, so I'll do whatever it takes. Besides, after being in this business for the better part of fifty years as both a businessman and player, I really don' t like musicians very much (with rare exceptions) and would much rather do a solo gig at a nursing home or restaurant. Of course, YMMV.

Thanks, Skip.

I have always had an appreciation for people who call it like they see it - and you have always seemed to be one of those types.

It's kind of becoming passe, but they used to use the term, "Keeping it real."

**JensL** · 08-10-2018, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Jens, I think you mean well, man, but for the most part, I reckon you're wrong to issue a blanket warning against practicing with backing tracks. if it helps to get way more people to the point where they're ready to have their ass kicked on the band stage, that can be only a good thing. The missing spontaneity (which irks the pros) can wait and will come in time....

It's in no way a blanket warning, it is in fact very very specific about what the problem is, but you have to watch it to realize

Jens

**AlsoRan** · 08-10-2018, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by JensL

It's in no way a blanket warning, it is in fact very very specific about what the problem is, but you have to watch it to realize

Jens

Thanks for weighing in Jens.

Sorry to single you out and use your name. You have always been a class act, and I don't want you to catch negative flack unfairly.

But through the years, many others have cautioned against BIAB or outright recommended to not use it at all Just as others have come out and said the same thing about using metronomes. I have wondered what the rationale was and if it was legitimate.

I am going to check out your video a little later today.

Again, thanks.

**JensL** · 08-10-2018, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

Thanks for weighing in Jens.

Sorry to single you out and use your name. You have always been a class act, and I don't want you to catch negative flack unfairly.

But through the years, many others have cautioned against BIAB or outright recommended to not use it at all Just as others have come out and said the same thing about using metronomes. I have wondered what the rationale was and if it was legitimate.

I am going to check out your video a little later today.

Again, thanks.

Don't worry about it!

I see it like this: If you have fun playing with backing tracks or BIAB then go for it! If you want to strengthen your inner time or your ability to hear the changes internally then make sure to also spend some time with something that doesn't carry you like a metronome.

That is essentially also what is in the video + some really solid metronome exercises if you want to improve your time and especially feel for subdivision.

Jens

**LtKojak** · 08-14-2018, 03:58 PM

That's the video. The title is kinda clickbait, and I don't think it'll make you a lesser player.

However, I'm classically trained and all my forming years I spent practising with a metronome, so after over fifty years of playing maybe I'm immune to the alleged effect of the backing tracks?

It's much better to play with a professionally-made backing track than with other carbon-based life forms that loosely refer themselves as "musicians".

**AlsoRan** · 08-14-2018, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by LtKojak

That's the video. The title is kinda clickbait, and I don't think it'll make you a lesser player.

However, I'm classically trained and all my forming years I spent practising with a metronome, so after over fifty years of playing maybe I'm immune to the alleged effect of the backing tracks?

It's much better to play with a professionally-made backing track than with other carbon-based life forms that loosely refer themselves as "musicians".

To be clear, Lt. K,

Lets make sure that others know there is much more to the video than just a discussion of backing tracks. I went back and watched it, and it goes in-depth discussing other related matters.

You also made a couple of great points there, as well, especially in regard to playing with humans. If I can opine for a moment, it seems so damn sad to put in your time, gain a high level of competency, and then have no equally or similarly competent peer(s) you can play with.

I hope everyone has at least a couple of musicians they can play with and enjoy the fruits of their labors.

Who loves you, baby?

**Skip Ellis** · 08-14-2018, 08:08 PM

"I hope everyone has at least a couple of musicians they can play with and enjoy the fruits of their labors."

Nope - wish I did but I don't. Just the facts of life around here. I've advertised for playing partners and got nowhere. Closest thing is the occasional theater production where I get to play with really good people....otherwise....

**Freel** · 08-14-2018, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by Skip Ellis

"I hope everyone has at least a couple of musicians they can play with and enjoy the fruits of their labors."

Nope - wish I did but I don't. Just the facts of life around here. I've advertised for playing partners and got nowhere. Closest thing is the occasional theater production where I get to play with really good people....otherwise....

Play and sing? I can't sing worth a damn but I can pitch and I can bluff the words to thousands of songs and LOVE how much more i FEEL harmony when I am singing, especially when I run substitution ideas. I would rather have an amateur play three chords for me to solo over all night than use a backing track and I hate playing with people who treat the band like a Karaoke machine.

**Freel** · 08-14-2018, 09:43 PM

I do prefer biab to backing tracks. It sounds terrible but I don't care about that, you can run ideas with it,practice sightseeing in every key, try and follow the chord voicing on the guitar display,gasp in amazement at all the notes the piano is playing that you can't hear, tut at the quantization of midi which auto generates a score full of errors and missing of the point.

I think it is a terrific and fun Labour of love created by real musicians and the best way of looking at it is as a super super metronome and musical almenac.

I almost never use it now, though every day is a metronome day, but when I needed to hear if things worked, it was there for me and jolly glad I was too.

Still it does sound superficially worse than a playalong. But I don't care much for sound,I care about performance, a play along will respond to you in the same way as a bad musician or all play along is not at all..... Except that biab is extremely obedient and flexible and the others arent.

**AlsoRan** · 08-14-2018, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by Freel

I do prefer biab to backing tracks. It sounds terrible but I don't care about that, you can run ideas with it,practice sightseeing in every key, try and follow the chord voicing on the guitar display,gasp in amazement at all the notes the piano is playing that you can't hear, the at the quantization of midi which auto generates a score.

I think it is a terrific and fun Labour of love created by real musicians and the best way of looking at it is as a super super metronome and musical almenac.

Still it does sound superficially worse than a playalong. But I don't care much for sound,I care about performance, a play along will respond to you in the same way as a bad musician or all play along is not at all..... Except that it is extremely obedient and flexible and the others arent.

My friend, I don't think you have heard the realtracks. They are better than the Midi. Example below.

Jazz 1 by Band-in-a-Box Radio | Free Listening on SoundCloud

**Freel** · 08-14-2018, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

My friend, I don't think you have heard the realtracks. They are better than the Midi. Example below.

Jazz 1 by Band-in-a-Box Radio | Free Listening on SoundCloud

Thanks!

I have heard them though, it's just that I don't care about sound, at all. I'd rather have a real band with washboards and kazoos, I'm not joking.

I get kinda depressed when the band don't listen because everything sounds like crud to me. It's nothing to do with hifi.

Still the finest piece of music software I've ever seen and a terrific study aid.

**LtKojak** · 08-15-2018, 03:26 AM

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

it seems so damn sad to put in your time, gain a high level of competency, and then have no equally or similarly competent peer(s) you can play with.

I hope everyone has at least a couple of musicians they can play with and enjoy the fruits of their labors

Well, not everybody is lucky enough to meet other people that is at least competent enough to keep the tempo, let alone adding dynamics to the playing and keep it "in the pocket" without going off the rails.

Thank God for Band-In-A-Box and its Real Tracks. That's the closest you'll ever get to the "real thing".

Me, I'm happy to have 50% of something than 100% of nothing.

**BFrench** · 08-15-2018, 07:33 AM

Well I live in the sticks and I have no one to even talk music with let alone get together with. I don't play out anymore except the occasional nursing home. I've been seriously thinking about purchasing BIAB for a little company and maybe learn a little something. I don't know how steep the learning curve is and if I can navigate around successfully.

I contacted pgmusic and according to their email reply "You are eligible for the "Upgrade from 2016 or earlier or crossgrade" pricing" ??? Even tho I've never bought biab??? This runs $79

**AlsoRan** · 08-15-2018, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by Freel

Thanks!

I have heard them though, it's just that I don't care about sound, at all. I'd rather have a real band with washboards and kazoos, I'm not joking.

I get kinda depressed when the band don't listen because everything sounds like crud to me. It's nothing to do with hifi.

Still the finest piece of music software I've ever seen and a terrific study aid.

I understand where you and the good Lt. K are coming from.

Like that old song says, "Ain't nothing like the real thing, baby."

**AlsoRan** · 08-15-2018, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by BFrench

Well I live in the sticks and I have no one to even talk music with let alone get together with. I don't play out anymore except the occasional nursing home. I've been seriously thinking about purchasing BIAB for a little company and maybe learn a little something. I don't know how steep the learning curve is and if I can navigate around successfully.

I contacted pgmusic and according to their email reply "You are eligible for the "Upgrade from 2016 or earlier or crossgrade" pricing" ??? Even tho I've never bought biab??? This runs $79

Lord knows, we can't have everything we want in life. BIAB is a pretty good compromise for some.

Over the years, I have been humbled by a lot of the music software that's out there, but Band in a Box has been something that I have been able to understand and use rather well.

Good luck on whatever you decide to do to make some music and fulfill your own musical needs. But make sure you have a decent computer. My 6-year old laptop can drag on some songs during playback, especially if you use the realtracks and add instrument solos in for some of the choruses.