Could Charlie Parker sing...

[princeplanet]

Chet Baker used to sing bebop solos exactly the same way he would play them on the trumpet.

Probably more than most trumpeters, and their instrument is the closest to singing. I wonder if Miles could have sung solos just as he would have played them?

[pamosmusic]

Sure, but all the same, I think JS makes an excellent point.

We’re still working off a bit of a standard I don’t think anyone holds themselves too.

I don’t think anyone claims that you must be able to sing all lines note for note for them to be legitimately heard. Just that being able to vocalize is important for being able to hear.

“You can’t sing chords” only works as a rejoinder to an argument I don’t really think people are making.

[princeplanet]

It's important to understand that at high tempos, even great players might not be "hearing" every note they play. But they may be hearing "touchstones," kind of a reduced melody version of their line.

Kind of like, I know I'm driving from Chicago to Baltimore and I've planned a stop in Cincinnati, but some other things I do along the way might just happen...

I think you're right. For slow lines I think most of us can, or should eventually be able to either, sing along with what we play, or better, play along with what we sing (despite a clam or two along the way ). At fast tempos I think I pre hear my prefab chunks, like words or phrases and can make my way through a solo and say to myself " yeah, I was hearing that shit". But I know it's BS, because if i record myself scat singing (poorly), it's nothing like what I play!

[princeplanet]

We’re still working off a bit of a standard I don’t think anyone holds themselves too.

I don’t think anyone claims that you must be able to sing all lines note for note for them to be legitimately heard. Just that being able to vocalize is important for being able to hear.

“You can’t sing chords” only works as a rejoinder to an argument I don’t really think people are making.

Just been reading about Lennie Tristano a bit lately, and I think he definitely held himself and his acolytes to that standard. I get uncomfortable with the idea that if he were to magically appear in my practice room, he would call me out for being a phoney! hehe...

[PMB]

It's interesting to note that pianists are particularly prone to sing along while playing. My hunch is that's because the piano's sound is created at a distance, i.e. with neither the voice or fingers having a direct, tactical connection to the source.

Regarding accuracy of vocal pitch, Glenn Gould, Oscar Peterson, Keith Jarrett constantly grumbled along with often tuneless approximations of their lines yet they all possessed absolute pitch. I'm pretty sure they heard most if not all of what they played and perhaps their vocalisations were a kind of melodic 'shadowing' of what their instruments produced at any moment.

[grahambop]

Probably more than most trumpeters, and their instrument is the closest to singing. I wonder if Miles could have sung solos just as he would have played them?

lol with his wrecked vocal cords it would have sounded more like Tom Waits!

[Dean_G]

Just been reading about Lennie Tristano a bit lately, and I think he definitely held himself and his acolytes to that standard. I get uncomfortable with the idea that if he were to magically appear in my practice room, he would call me out for being a phoney! hehe...

Man I relate directly to this. Here's my story..
I have always used attempting to sing my line as a way to connect my ear and breath with the instrument. It helps my phrasing and when I am performing I will go into it if I feel I am disconnecting or getting too mechanical.It helps me.
But I wouldn't say it's a prerequisite for good improvisation. I read Herb Ellis suggesting singing along as you play early on, and I took that to heart.

I can hit some pitches pretty good while playing if I am listening hard. And if my "third ear" is working and I am tuning in to the other players often good things happen.
So back many years ago (1979) I got a local trio gig to back a visiting alto luminary, and Tristano acolyte, for a 6 night stint, two shows a night and after hours session on the weekend.
Well it was an intense week and I learned a lot of course. Near the end of the week he sits down with me and is showing interest in my playing. We talk about who I like, a couple technical things, why my changes on Stella weren't quite right!betc.
Then he says, "I noticed you singing your lines during some of your solos. Are you playing what you are singing? Or singing what you are playing?"
I take a moment and then explain what I wrote above and my answer was neither... because I couldn't that without my guitar, while singing along affects how I am playing. But I need the instrument because I am not a singer, if I could just sing it why would I play an instrument.

So he looks straight at me and says, "Well then you're just shucking." Destroyed me. Took me years to deal with that(. Be careful talking to your heroes!)

But I still do it, it still helps me engage with the music, and I guess I am still shucking. But I do try to sing phrases after I play them so I have gotten a little better at that I guess.
The point for me is to get in that zone where I really don't know where things are coming from and the vocalizing thing can be a meditative practice to aid that.But the next time someone tries to fuck with my head they'd better be ready to duck. (Says the 73 year old "tough guy").

The positives of that gig did however out weigh the negatives! Talk about a master class..

[princeplanet]

Man I relate directly to this. Here's my story..
I have always used attempting to sing my line as a way to connect my ear and breath with the instrument. It helps my phrasing and when I am performing I will go into it if I feel I am disconnecting or getting too mechanical.It helps me.
But I wouldn't say it's a prerequisite for good improvisation. I read Herb Ellis suggesting singing along as you play early on, and I took that to heart.

I can hit some pitches pretty good while playing if I am listening hard. And if my "third ear" is working and I am tuning in to the other players often good things happen.
So back many years ago (1979) I got a local trio gig to back a visiting alto luminary, and Tristano acolyte, for a 6 night stint, two shows a night and after hours session on the weekend.
Well it was an intense week and I learned a lot of course. Near the end of the week he sits down with me and is showing interest in my playing. We talk about who I like, a couple technical things, why my changes on Stella weren't quite right!betc.
Then he says, "I noticed you singing your lines during some of your solos. Are you playing what you are singing? Or singing what you are playing?"
I take a moment and then explain what I wrote above and my answer was neither... because I couldn't that without my guitar, while singing along affects how I am playing. But I need the instrument because I am not a singer, if I could just sing it why would I play an instrument.

So he looks straight at me and says, "Well then you're just shucking." Destroyed me. Took me years to deal with that(. Be careful talking to your heroes!)

But I still do it, it still helps me engage with the music, and I guess I am still shucking. But I do try to sing phrases after I play them so I have gotten a little better at that I guess.
The point for me is to get in that zone where I really don't know where things are coming from and the vocalizing thing can be a meditative practice to aid that.But the next time someone tries to fuck with my head they'd better be ready to duck. (Says the 73 year old "tough guy").

The positives of that gig did however out weigh the negatives! Talk about a master class..

Wow, great story, and so on point! Presumably this isn't Warne Marsh or Lee Konitz you're talking about, so who was this player?

Lennie wasn't the only purveyor of this idea of "pure" improvisation, but this approach seems to be taken up by the very few. Back in the day, the average listener
probably couldn't tell if a player was purely improvising or not, and those that were probably didn't sound any more appealing than those that were stitching together prefab chunks. In an age where players were trying to earn a living by entertaining, commerce triumphs over art. Explains why Lennie had few followers.

But today Jazz makes little money for it's practitioner, and many of us do it for art's sake. And, as art is it's own reward, then surely the "purer" path to improv Nirvana would be taken up by those of us not content to just be "shucking" it? I wonder if there's a Lenny cult out there?...

[grahambop]

I get the impression there is some resurgence of interest in Tristano and co. these days, e.g. saxophonist Mark Turner is apparently very influenced by Warne Marsh.

[Stevebol]

I believe Red Rodney- AKA Albino Red had the vocal chores with Yard.

Could Charlie Parker sing?

Well, it's tough to say. You don't have to do everything.

[Litterick]

'In 1950, Parker also traveled across the Midwest and South with his quintet and with the Jazz at the Philharmonic tour. He avoided a potential obstacle during his band’s own tour of the segregated South, where it was not legally permitted for blacks and whites to share a stage, by claiming that Red Rodney, the group’s red-haired, Jewish trumpeter, was a lightskinned black. To reinforce the idea, Parker referred to Rodney onstage as Albino Red and always asked the trumpeter to sing a blues song during each set. The shy, soft-spoken Rodney was hardly a vocalist, but he did the best he could, and no one seriously questioned his presence in Parker’s group.'

Charlie Parker, Ron Frankl. New York: Chelsea House, 1993, p110.

[ragman1]

Chet Baker used to sing bebop solos exactly the same way he would play them on the trumpet.

Wow, I've never heard that before. I've heard him sing, obviously, but to do that over the changes, syncopated phrasing, every note precise... that is impressive.

[Stevebol]

It’s rare that I’ve ever met a black person who couldn’t sing, or dance.

How's the weather in Japan?

[Stevebol]

Depends what it is you're singing. The sheets of sound of late Trane couldn't have been sung - certainly not at the tempo they appear, and also the fact he uses multiphonics!

So long as you can hear it and can play it, does it matter?

I couldn't play, sing, or hear this if my life depended on it;

[Stevebol]

'In 1950, Parker also traveled across the Midwest and South with his quintet and with the Jazz at the Philharmonic tour. He avoided a potential obstacle during his band’s own tour of the segregated South, where it was not legally permitted for blacks and whites to share a stage, by claiming that Red Rodney, the group’s red-haired, Jewish trumpeter, was a lightskinned black. To reinforce the idea, Parker referred to Rodney onstage as Albino Red and always asked the trumpeter to sing a blues song during each set. The shy, soft-spoken Rodney was hardly a vocalist, but he did the best he could, and no one seriously questioned his presence in Parker’s group.'

Charlie Parker, Ron Frankl. New York: Chelsea House, 1993, p110.

I know that drill. I'm Albino Stevebol in Japan. It was horrible because of what was going on in mid 80's Osaka.

At one time Red Rodney impersonated a military officer?!?
I would never do anything like that.

Bird could play an instrument so yes, he could sing.

[Stevebol]

Almost anyone can sing and everyone can rap.

'They took me to a dog show and I won'.

[mr. beaumont]

everyone can rap.

Yeah, no.

[Stevebol]

Yeah, no.

The best rapper I ever heard by far is a guy named Simmy. He called himself Simmy and the Wrecking Crew but we didn't collaborate with him. We rehearsed at his house.
He invented gangster rap right there in his living room. Sept.,1985.
We were the Romance Band and had a last hurrah overseas right after that. No more band gigs in the far east after us.

I went back to Buffalo. The City of No Illusions.

[princeplanet]

I couldn't play, sing, or hear this if my life depended on it;

As impressive as that is, I have a friend who can improvise scatting to GS at this tempo. I once recorded it and transcribed a fair bit of it, and yes, he was hitting the changes, and no, it wasn't from memory...