The electric version of Django

[Christian Miller]

I‘d love to know how many similar bands operated at the time. Surely Django didn’t come out of nowhere.


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There were a few string bands around at that time. Here’s one

and another

and another

going back of course you have Eddie and Joe Venuti (who Django claimed weren’t an influence) but afaik the string jazz band goes back a ways further back then that.

The impression I get is the HCOJ was a bit less unusual than people think… it’s a bit like Bach and Mozart, everyone forgets about the people around at the time who did similar stuff but weren’t as iconic or good at it.

The rhythmic feel of HCOJ is fairly typical of the jazz of that era. The three guitar thing was less usual but guitar was extremely common as a rhythm instrument in the 30s. As Denis Chang basically says 1930s Django is American style hot jazz/swing music of the era, and stylistically nothing to do with traditional Sinti music.

It later became a traditional Sinti music based on the model of Django’s playing.

Mostly AFAIK Django was influenced by Louis and wanted to do that on the guitar. Later the boppers.

I would say that Django was a little unusual for the 30s in being a single note soloist, but there is obviously Eddie Lang as a precursor, as well as his Paris based contemporaries like Oscar Aleman and Matelo Ferret

[RLetson]

I‘d love to know how many similar bands operated at the time. Surely Django didn’t come out of nowhere.

Le jazz hot was all over Paris in the 1930s--I mentioned Oscar Aleman--and American players were frequent visitors (Bill Coleman recorded with the QHCF). I'm too lazy to go to my bookshelves now to check specifics, but Michael Dregni's three books on Django and jazz manouche, Delaunay's early Django bio, plus Paul Balmer's bio of Grappelli would certainly supply the relevant background. The late Mike Zwerin's La Tristesse de Saint Louis: Swing Under the Nazis focuses on a slightly later period but is really good on the Paris music scene.

As to where Django came out of--he started off accompanying musette accordionists but was (according to various accounts) electrified by Armstrong and familiar with the Venuti-Lang duets. You can hear the musette influence in waltzes attributed to Django, "Chez Jacquet" and "Montagne Sainte Genevieve," which were recorded much later by Matelo Ferret.

[Bop Head]

There were a few string bands around at that time. Here’s one

and another

and another

going back of course you have Eddie and Joe Venuti (who Django claimed weren’t an influence) but afaik the string jazz band goes back a ways further back then that.

The impression I get is the HCOJ was a bit less unusual than people think… it’s a bit like Bach and Mozart, everyone forgets about the people around at the time who did similar stuff but weren’t as iconic or good at it.

The rhythmic feel of HCOJ is fairly typical of the jazz of that era. The three guitar thing was less usual but guitar was extremely common as a rhythm instrument in the 30s. As Denis Chang basically says 1930s Django is American style hot jazz/swing music of the era, and stylistically nothing to do with traditional Sinti music.

It later became a traditional Sinti music based on the model of Django’s playing.

Mostly AFAIK Django was influenced by Louis and wanted to do that on the guitar. Later the boppers.

I would say that Django was a little unusual for the 30s in being a single note soloist, but there is obviously Eddie Lang as a precursor, as well as his Paris based contemporaries like Oscar Aleman and Matelo Ferret

For single lines on guitar do not forget Lonnie Johnson who recorded with Eddie Lang (aka "Blind Willie Dunn") as well. But I do not know if those records where exported to France.

[daveg]

AndyV, is there a specific album or playlist you listen to for Django’s electric playing?

If you can find them, Django's electric playing began around 1947 and the Fremaux "Integrale Django Reinhardt" series of Chronological recordings documents these tracks. Volume 14 (of 20 double cds) is the place to start. Django trivia - Django never played electric on any recording which also featured Stephane Grappelli.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=Integra...ref=nb_sb_noss

The complete set can be found on Deezer and probably Spotify.

Another source of the 1947 recordings is "Souvenirs de Dango" https://www.amazon.co.uk/Souvenirs-D...ar%2C88&sr=1-1


DG

[Jonasulf]

I will definitely use the links provided to learn more about its electric sound.

[Christian Miller]

For single lines on guitar do not forget Lonnie Johnson who recorded with Eddie Lang (aka "Blind Willie Dunn") as well. But I do not know if those records where exported to France.

or for that matter the wonderful Teddy Bunn

Lonnie Johnson did feature on some of Louis Armstrong’s recordings so it’s entirely possible Django knew of him from those even if he didn’t have access to the “blind Willie Dunn” sides. (As did Lang iirc, although i think it’s Johnny St Cyr here on rhythm guitar if memory serves.)

I think lonnie is playing a resonator here? Great sound. Lovely cut all over actually.

I don’t hear a huge influence tbh. Lonnie’s great but his style is very different to Django’s. Bunn was also a bluesy player (Charlie Christian had a similar style on acoustic I notice.)

St Cyr had quite a single note style on banjo. I think he played either Chicago tuning or guitar banjo iirc?

[Bop Head]

or for that matter the wonderful Teddy Bunn

Lonnie Johnson did feature on some of Louis Armstrong’s recordings so it’s entirely possible Django knew of him from those even if he didn’t have access to the “blind Willie Dunn” sides. (As did Lang iirc, although i think it’s Johnny St Cyr here on rhythm guitar if memory serves.)

I think lonnie is playing a resonator here? Great sound.

I don’t hear a huge influence tbh. Lonnie’s great but his style is very different to Django’s. Bunn was also a bluesy player (Charlie Christian had a similar style on acoustic I notice.)

St Cyr had quite a single note style on banjo. I think he played either Chicago tuning or guitar banjo iirc?

This is off-topic but could you point me to recordings of CC on acoustic?

I love TB's playing on those Sidney Bechet Blue Note sides. Don't know much about St. Cyr except he played with Pops.

[Christian Miller]

I love TB's playing on those Sidney Bechet Blue Note sides. Don't know much about St. Cyr except he played with Pops.

If we have Django on electric it seems only fair to post Charlie on acoustic

classic charlie stuff

more in a blues vein

i think all the acoustic stuff he recorded was with Edmond Hall

I don’t know a huge amount about St Cyr either, apart from the fact he played in a guitar tuning (and that’s very much IIRC haha)

in early jazz circles cats get really snotty about guitar tuned banjos … but there it is on arguably the most seminal 20s stuff.

[Christian Miller]

I love TB's playing on those Sidney Bechet Blue Note sides

have you heard this? I mean the guys feel was just off the chain.

and then there’s his electric playing which is great too

The drumming here is SICK as the kids say

[AndyV]

Amazon.com

[docsteve]

If you can find them, Django's electric playing began around 1947 and the Fremaux "Integrale Django Reinhardt" series of Chronological recordings documents these tracks. Volume 14 (of 20 double cds) is the place to start. Django trivia - Django never played electric on any recording which also featured Stephane Grappelli.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=Integra...ref=nb_sb_noss

The complete set can be found on Deezer and probably Spotify.

Another source of the 1947 recordings is "Souvenirs de Dango" https://www.amazon.co.uk/Souvenirs-D...ar%2C88&sr=1-1


DG

On Apple Music there is an album called Peche a la Mouche that is a collection of Django‘s later sides. It has even got the same cover graphic as the one in the OP. I’m listening to it now.
Edit: It's the one that AndyV links to in the post above mine.

He plays acoustic and electric guitar. Fascinating to hear the playing evolve. I have a feeling that over time he gets away from the classic sweet sound with a lot of vibrato, as well as the typical mannerisms of the Swing Manouche. The electric recordings are quite different as far as the playing is concerned.


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[Bop Head]

[...] As Denis Chang basically says 1930s Django is American style hot jazz/swing music of the era, and stylistically nothing to do with traditional Sinti music.

It later became a traditional Sinti music based on the model of Django’s playing. [...]

The traditional tunes with their lyrics in the gypsy language Romanes still play a role but are only played in the closed circle of a Sinti audience. You can find some on Youtube by searching for "Sinti music" or "Sinti Musik". But watch out, many of the arrangements are really cheesy:

BTW I like the fact that you call them Sinti. Didn't we abandon the "N-word" (at least in jazz circles I hope) because people from Africa and of African descendence did not want to be called like that any more? Some Sinti even prefer the German "Zigeuner" to "Roma" despite the fact that "Zigeuner" by the German public opinion is considered politically incorrect (because of the persecution of Sinti and Roma in the "Third Reich") and sometimes even called the "Z-word".*)

There are/were musicians that have Roma ancestry as well: Josho Stephan's grandfather, Joe Zawinul's mother, the Stone's Ronnie Wood and Albert Lee IIRC.

Eastern European Roma and German/French/Dutch/Belgian/etc. Sinti/Manouche can communicate through Romanes despite the fact that each gypsy culture has different loanwords from the surrounding social majority.**) But they perceive themselves as different from each other which can even have racist traits.

*) I am not sure if in the interest of consistency the Noel Coward tune "Zigeuner" has already been canceled in Germany. Do not laugh: It was reported to me recently that the title of Expressionist painter August Macke's painting "Indianer auf Pferden" ("Indians on Horseback", Lenbachhaus museum/Munich) in the description was bashfully called "I. auf Pferden" instead of properly explaining that you do not use the word "Indians" any more today -- and better call them "Native Americans" or "indigenous peoples of the Americas" -- but that people used to do it at that time when the painting was created by Macke. Do not get me wrong, I really find the "language creates awareness" attitude correct and try to follow it but only unless it gets a little silly ...

**) If you ever come across a Sinto musician by the name of "Stacheli": that means "Igel" (German; engl."hedgehog") because of the "Stacheln" (German; engl. "spines"). Hedgehog is (was? Hedgehogs are Red Listed nowadays) a gourmet food for the Sinti. They get wrapped in clay and put into the camp fire and afterwards you can easily pull off the spines with the hardened clay.
Some more cultural facts from my personal field research:

• On the other hand horse meat is taboo, because horses are somehow sacred as they used to draw the caravans of the travelling people. That was before Sinti could afford Mercedes Benz cars.
• The women were riding on the horsebacks unless they were menstruating and considered unpure.

EDIT: Unbelievable: After the video was finished YouTube offers me a video by German politician Björn Höcke of the right-wing "Alternative für Deutschland" party (lots of umlauts) who after a court ruling may publicly be called a "right-wing extremist" for his Nazi attitude ... 1,5 million of Sinti and Roma were killed by Germans (and not to forget their later collaborators in e.g. France, Poland, Ukraine) between 1933 and 1945 ...

[Bop Head]

have you heard this? I mean the guys feel was just off the chain.

and then there’s his electric playing which is great too

The drumming here is SICK as the kids say

Both are really nice. Seems the brushing drummer in the second one is also the lead singer with this totally relaxed voice (cannabis?).

[daveg]

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DG

[Bop Head]

If we have Django on electric it seems only fair to post Charlie on acoustic

classic charlie stuff

more in a blues vein

i think all the acoustic stuff he recorded was with Edmond Hall

I don’t know a huge amount about St Cyr either, apart from the fact he played in a guitar tuning (and that’s very much IIRC haha)

in early jazz circles cats get really snotty about guitar tuned banjos … but there it is on arguably the most seminal 20s stuff.

This is very nice and also interesting. I always thought CC was considered a great single note player (OK some double stops as well) but not-so-great on rhythm guitar but he is doing a great job on the first one.

[AndyV]

Still wonderful all these years later.

[Christian Miller]

The traditional tunes with their lyrics in the gypsy language Romanes still play a role but are only played in the closed circle of a Sinti audience. You can find some on Youtube by searching for "Sinti music" or "Sinti Musik". But watch out, many of the arrangements are really cheesy:

BTW I like the fact that you call them Sinti. Didn't we abandon the "N-word" (at least in jazz circles I hope) because people from Africa and of African descendence did not want to be called like that any more? Some Sinti even prefer the German "Zigeuner" to "Roma" despite the fact that "Zigeuner" by the German public opinion is considered politically incorrect (because of the persecution of Sinti and Roma in the "Third Reich") and sometimes even called the "Z-word".*)

Yeah, shouldn't we be refraining from using the G word? I have used it in the context of what I prefer to call 'manouche jazz' or perhaps more accessibly 'Parisian hot jazz' or whatever.

That said, a friend of mine got in trouble teaching a John Scofield tune whose name turned out to be highly offensive racial epithet in some corners of the world... he had no idea (and presumably neither did Sco)

[Christian Miller]

This is very nice and also interesting. I always thought CC was considered a great single note player (OK some double stops as well) but not-so-great on rhythm guitar but he is doing a great job on the first one.

Yeah, maybe they meant he didn't know many chords compared to Van Eps or something? Who knows. Anyway, his feel is great. Of course.

[Bop Head]

Yeah, shouldn't we be refraining from using the G word? I have used it in the context of what I prefer to call 'manouche jazz' or perhaps more accessibly 'Parisian hot jazz' or whatever.

I would always go after what people like to be called themselves nowadays and what not. In gangster rap circles folks might use the N-word among themselves ("NWA"), but the majority of African-Americans hates it and might even use violence against you if you say it loud in their presence (I do not mean to say violence is an elegant solution but it might happen).

Do Gypsies in English speaking countries mind being called Gypsies although they very long ago originated from India and not from Egypt? That is the thing I would investigate and respect.

Despite the racist "Better call me 'Zigeuner' than 'Roma' , I am not a beggar sitting in the corner begging for small change." attitude. (The guy who said that would tell you a heart-breaking story and after five minutes you would give him 20 EUR LOL.)

I do not mind being called a "Kraut" (isn't Krautrock music hip? And I really like sauerkraut) or "Kartoffel" (Turks call Germans "potatoes" -- but I really like potatoes) but I do not like to be called a "Nazi" after 80 years. (Anyway I define myself as a human being and a citoyen du monde. The only nation I know and really respect is the human nation. Being German and of the rich "West" or "North" is a random privilege and means living on the behalf of billions in poverty.)

I would always ask the people themselves and not go after (sometimes fabricated) political correctness. Romani Rose, Sinto and chairman of the German Central Council of Sinti and Roma might see it differently from other members of his people and say "Zigeuner" is totally discriminating and must never be used again.

[Bop Head]

Yeah, maybe they meant he didn't know many chords compared to Van Eps or something? Who knows. Anyway, his feel is great. Of course.

BTW ever tried even "4 to the bar" "against" (wrong word somehow) someone playing "la pompe"? Works great ...

[Litterick]

I would always ask the people themselves and not go after (sometimes fabricated) political correctness.

Yes. We have had this nonsense on other occasions, and it is quite unnecessary. This is a music forum. We should talk about music freely. Being offended on behalf of other people is just posturing.

[Christian Miller]

I would always go after what people like to be called themselves nowadays and what not. In gangster rap circles folks might use the N-word among themselves ("NWA"), but the majority of African-Americans hates it and might even use violence against you if you say it loud in their presence (I do not mean to say violence is an elegant solution but it might happen).

Do Gypsies in English speaking countries mind being called Gypsies although they very long ago originated from India and not from Egypt? That is the thing I would investigate and respect.

Despite the racist "Better call me 'Zigeuner' than 'Roma' , I am not a beggar sitting in the corner begging for small change." attitude. (The guy who said that would tell you a heart-breaking story and after five minutes you would give him 20 EUR LOL.)

I do not mind being called a "Kraut" (isn't Krautrock music hip? And I really like sauerkraut) or "Kartoffel" (Turks call Germans "potatoes" -- but I really like potatoes) but I do not like to be called a "Nazi" after 80 years. (Anyway I define myself as a human being and a citoyen du monde. The only nation I know and really respect is the human nation. Being German and of the rich "West" or "North" is a random privilege and means living on the behalf of billions in poverty.)

I would always ask the people themselves and not go after (sometimes fabricated) political correctness. Romani Rose, Sinto and chairman of the German Central Council of Sinti and Roma might see it differently from other members of his people and say "Zigeuner" is totally discriminating and must never be used again.

I have absolutely no idea of the specifics.

I don’t think it inconveniences me much to use alternative terms.

[RLetson]

Issues of nomenclature/identity-labels are all over the academy, and much of it does seem to get deep into the semantic-historical weeds. And often the strongest emotional reactions come from people who are not directly involved--there's a lot of being offended on somebody else's behalf, not always with their assent or cooperation. There's also a lot of emotion invested in names and naming and who gets to do it. And, not infrequently, a bit of linguistically uninformed speculation.

One problem I keep encountering is the notion that a group (ethnic, national*, religious, economic, affectional-orientational) is of uniform consistency, like Velveeta. Some American Indians object to that term, others don't seem to be bothered, and I've noticed that for many their preferred first identifier is their tribal name (often in their own language), with some other more general label, such as Native American or First Nation or whatever, indicating a more general ethnicity. (Canada seems to have settled on "First Nations" to most folks' satisfaction.) And I have noticed a similar situation among various Roma groups and individuals--some are not bothered by "gypsy," at least as an identifier for the music. And sometimes I've noticed annoyance at being labeled as the wrong subset of Roma. (And I'm even not sure whether, right at the moment, "Roma" is OK as a general identifier.) All an outsider can do is try to read the room and be willing to adapt.

(Want some strenuous and uncomfortable fun? Try mapping the use of "queer"--its range of senses, who gets to use it and in what settings, and the inevitable problems when one gets away from its modern association with sexuality, as in the early-19th-century phrase "he found himself in Queer Street.")

* Dutch treat, Dutch courage, French leave, Chinese firedrill, Welsh rabbit, Mexican standoff, Russian roulette. . . . Our capacity for for the barely-veiled insult is impressive.

[Bop Head]

Issues of nomenclature/identity-labels are all over the academy, and much of it does seem to get deep into the semantic-historical weeds. And often the strongest emotional reactions come from people who are not directly involved--there's a lot of being offended on somebody else's behalf, not always with their assent or cooperation. There's also a lot of emotion invested in names and naming and who gets to do it. And, not infrequently, a bit of linguistically uninformed speculation.

One problem I keep encountering is the notion that a group (ethnic, national*, religious, economic, affectional-orientational) is of uniform consistency, like Velveeta. Some American Indians object to that term, others don't seem to be bothered, and I've noticed that for many their preferred first identifier is their tribal name (often in their own language), with some other more general label, such as Native American or First Nation or whatever, indicating a more general ethnicity. (Canada seems to have settled on "First Nations" to most folks' satisfaction.) And I have noticed a similar situation among various Roma groups and individuals--some are not bothered by "gypsy," at least as an identifier for the music. And sometimes I've noticed annoyance at being labeled as the wrong subset of Roma. (And I'm even not sure whether, right at the moment, "Roma" is OK as a general identifier.) All an outsider can do is try to read the room and be willing to adapt.

(Want some strenuous and uncomfortable fun? Try mapping the use of "queer"--its range of senses, who gets to use it and in what settings, and the inevitable problems when one gets away from its modern association with sexuality, as in the early-19th-century phrase "he found himself in Queer Street.")

* Dutch treat, Dutch courage, French leave, Chinese firedrill, Welsh rabbit, Mexican standoff, Russian roulette. . . . Our capacity for for the barely-veiled insult is impressive.

This is a very interesting documentary in German produced by Sinti.

It is really extra-ordinairy: There is not that meta-level of expert scholars talking about someone else but here people from an ethnic minority talk about themselves. (Something that really annoys me in these postmodern times: You get on the radio e.g. an interview with a literature expert from an university speculating about the intentions of an author of a recently released novel instead of interviewing the still alive author himself.) The auto-translation from auto-generated German subtitles to English is rather OK-ish enough to understand the basic story.

Rather in the beginning a musician called Max Reinhardt (obviously from Django's Reinhardt clan) is introduced. He uses the "Z-word" all the time -- also when he quickly enters the topic of Auschwitz concentration camp (where the SS had built a special "Zigeunerlager", "gypsy camp").

I think the docu is interesting for a non-German speaking audience as well (even if the automatic translation is not perfect) as it gives a unique insight not only into the history of the Sinti and their social situation today but also into their private life. They talk about the role of music as well.

[Bop Head]

Regarding Django and the history of the Sinti under the Nazis: Did anybody else watch this movie from 2017?