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agreed.
Originally Posted by Dean_G
I was thinking John Denver
"Commercial" I admit was a poor choice of words. Too loaded. Not saying being paid for ones music is wrong. More a question of integrity/intent. Lage is a tremendous guitar player, but now he's a folksy stylist, or then he's (mostly unsuccessfully imo ) a free jazzer, then mainstream...who is he? Will the real JL please stand up? What, your freeish playing wasn't getting enough likes? Better back off and reassure his fans. BTW he's never done anything "avant garde" perhaps he needs to copy Derek Bailey or Joe Morris next, he has the chops.
Comparing him in any way to Charlie Christian doesn't fly. CC pushed the boundaries of jazz harmony and phrasing that helped create bebop. In it's time it was "avant garde" within jazz circles of the time.
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11-16-2023 12:43 PM
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Funny that Wes is being mentioned. Wes made soft-jazz music that was very "commercial". (i.e. made to appeal to a wider audience beyond straight-ahead jazz). Originally Posted by docsteve
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Another thing worth remembering about Julian: we call him a jazz guitarist because he graduated Berklee, toured with Gary Burton as a teen, and hung out a lot with Jim Hall. Plus he's pretty good at it.
On the other hand, Santana got him up on stage to jam when he was 9 years old. And he played a strat! It was almost as big as him. He also played with David Grisman and Béle Fleck when he was around 12. And he loves Lefty Frizzel.
Maybe he got into jazz to become a better bluegrass player. Or maybe he doesn't think about the labels that much.
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Maybe it is Blue Note. The producer is Joe Henry, who is a little bit country and a little bit rock'n'roll. Maybe Lage is moving into alt country.
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I saw them live at The Stone. It was great. Originally Posted by ruger9
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This is the answer folks. Everyone should think so openly. Especially about something as wonderful as music. Originally Posted by ccroft
I don't really consider Jim Campilongo or Duke Levine "jazz" players either, but that's how they are classified, for "lack of a pigeon hole". They are simply great players making great music. That's all I care about.
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Julian tends to develop some controversy around here it seems whenever he is talked about. I think mainly it is because some folks want him to play "straight ahead jazz" on an archtop or something and make a standards record. To me, he is my favorite guitarist and musician out there, regardless of genre or what style he is playing. I can almost guarantee he doesn't think about labels or if something is "jazz" or not. He just makes the music he wants to make. Originally Posted by docsteve
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So I'll admit, some of the stuff he's doing gets close to what I call "guitar music," and that stuff just doesn't do it for me.
I really, really loved him with Gary Burton...I suppose that's a lifetime ago.
I'm happy that he's achieved a level of success to where he can pretty much do anything he wants. I don't see this new tune as "trying to be commercial" at all.
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Pretty clear, it has to be said. Originally Posted by Litterick
As a matter of fact I agree with everything you've said about his latest style except the rather cynical comments about only doing it for money, sales, or hoping it becomes film music. I really doubt all that, I think he's a perfectly genuine artist doing what he wants to do.
He's never been mainstream jazz, even with Gary Burton; he's always been independent. But he can do 'proper jazz' when he wants, as we know.
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You know, most of us here, including myself, have got into jazz via other styles. I started out on classical, then went to folk, blues, country, bluegrass, and then jazz after that.
If I'm honest, I found listening to jazz, as it was in those days, was rather boring, music for an older generation, so I wasn't interested. Later, I found it was the technical side of jazz I was interested in, what notes produced those strange sounds, so I learnt to reproduce them myself. But I don't think I ever really became a jazz player as such, it was just an evolution. I suspect a lot of us did that too.
I suspect Julian Lage has done just the same. Of course, he went through Berklee, doubtless played jazz a great deal, but after that wanted to find his own sound, which he has. Whether it's that popular, I don't know, but at least he's made a further evolutionary step.
I think most of us are doing exactly the same. It's just that Lage, being an extreme talent, went through the process more rapidly. And most of us are still trying to get our heads round the basics. Of course, where we end up has yet to materialise. Which it will if we persist.
But the catch is that jazz itself is evolving and changing immensely while all this is going on... which makes it all rather interesting :-)
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I don't mind One Quiet Night... I actually find it quite enjoyable, interesting tunings etc. (whatever the "genre"). Speaking of Pat Metheny I'm more put off by a song such as "Last Train Home" (or other similar songs of his... and Pat, at some point was "at war" with Kenny G!? ...Really!??) Originally Posted by ruger9
Anyway, songs like that don't take a thing away from the beautiful things Pat has written and played (same for Julian Lage) and I'm ok with anybody doing whatever they want (in music that is...).
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Why? Why will you only tolerate a certain kind of music? Why does it have to be 'jazz' in your terms? Originally Posted by frabarmus
Why do you pour scorn on very good jazz players when they play other styles? It means they aren't limited but you are! Is the fault theirs or yours? Are you a jazz snob? :-)
You remember when Dylan went electric? The fuss over it! 'Judas!' they screamed. He was booed off the stage after three songs. Oh, lord, the nonsense of it all.
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The same ear which allows one to appreciate the artist heights of both Julian and Pat also informs when maybe they shouldn't have bothered.
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Food for thought, thank you. Originally Posted by ragman1
It's just that given any genre, musician or album, there might be things about them I love/prefer and others that I could frankly live without (but still tolerate).
What about you: is there anything, in music, you don't like or like a little bit less? Or do you love evrything you hear just the same, because otherwise you would be a "snob" and you'd be "pouring scorn"... ?
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If you are copying someone else’s style (esp someone long dead) is it really avant garde in any meaningful sense? Originally Posted by Dean_G
I was thinking John Denver
"Commercial" I admit was a poor choice of words. Too loaded. Not saying being paid for ones music is wrong. More a question of integrity/intent. Lage is a tremendous guitar player, but now he's a folksy stylist, or then he's (mostly unsuccessfully imo ) a free jazzer, then mainstream...who is he? Will the real JL please stand up? What, your freeish playing wasn't getting enough likes? Better back off and reassure his fans. BTW he's never done anything "avant garde" perhaps he needs to copy Derek Bailey or Joe Morris next, he has the chops.
Bailey has plenty of imitators. The free players that followed his example had to work hard to escape his influence.
Lage has checked out that music btw.
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Good question. I guess regarding jazz, it reached one kind of avant-garde really quite quickly in free jazz - though I think there were people who claimed at the time that Charlie Parker & bebop were avant-garde or at least modernist. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
So I don't know - if you copy a more recent musician like Wynton does that make you more avant-garde than if you take as your point of departure late Trane?
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Good question, probably what I would have asked! Originally Posted by frabarmus
Of course there are things I like more than others, that's natural.
No, I don't like everything the same, etc. But that wasn't the point here. The point was that Lage was being actively criticised (at least, apparently so, forgive me if I'm mistaken) for not being 'jazz' when he should have been.Or do you love everything you hear just the same, because otherwise you would be a "snob" and you'd be "pouring scorn"... ?
It's the 'should have been' I was objecting to. He can play what he likes.
I quite like this, by the way :-)
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If you're just copying someone else I doubt if it's meaningful at all. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Shichyesss!!! That's my neighbourhood, and I've been living here a long long time. I call it music. Originally Posted by ragman1
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People still holding memories of The Great Folk Scare?
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I did say, 'I think Metheny and Lage are sincere artists.' But Blue Note would be happy to see Lage reaching new audiences, because the old audience is not growing. Lage has potential for crossover into the AOR market — he is the only contemporary jazz guitarist often discussed on The Gear Page. In any case, here is his account of the song's origins: Originally Posted by ragman1
I wrote “Omission” earlier this year as a kind of miniature, short theme with a bridge and had assumed it needed a lot more sections before bringing it to the band. I loved the theme and couldn’t find a way to add more material without losing the central theme, so I walked away from it for a little while. Then I shared it with my dear friend Joe Henry and we tried a version with a larger ensemble, with acoustic guitar leading the charge and it felt like it had found its home. I am so happy. This recording features my dream band: Jorge Roeder, Dave King and Patrick Warren, produced by Joe Henry.
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I have to admit I loved the Folk Scare, I cut my teeth on the Folk Scare. So it goes a lot deeper than just holding memories, it was an integral part of my youth, so it's not just about remembering old tunes, it's in the blood! Originally Posted by pauln
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I saw that before somewhere, not on Facebook. Originally Posted by Litterick
I've honestly no idea about his audiences or what Blue Note think. But I doubt if Julian would hang around anyone trying to push him in a direction he didn't want to go for very long...
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Seeing him in concert was nothing short of fantastic and opposed to other "jazz concerts" I've been to this year not only old white-haired males in the audience. Julian is hope... ;-)
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Like Julian, Pat Metheny is a restless spirit who does what he wants to do at that moment in time. Take it or leave it. Most seem to take it, and gladly.Since 2020, Pat has released:
- From This Place - a very cinematic album, not your everyday jazz stuff
- Road To The Sun - classical guitar music composed by Pat, released under his name, but played by top classical players.
- Side-eye NYC - a fairly standard Metheny-esque live album
- Dream Box - a sparse, dreamy, mostly flat-top acoustic album
More power to Julian for following his muse. If I don’t like something he does, well… tough.
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