Gambale

[kris]

what level is this on guitar hero?

This is very helpful on every level.
You can slow down a bit and slowly make progress.

[supersoul]

This Frank Gambale sweep picking thread made me think about how I have a hard time playing Freedom Jazz Dance. The melody is based on fourths and I've always played it with a sweep, never constantly well. I've tried all sorts of different fingerings, etc. but it always sounds sloppy.

So I've decided to learn it with strict up/down picking, and after a couple days it seems to work better. The sound is stronger, the rhythm is tighter and I can place accents better.

[BreckerFan]

Thats a good point and why I referred to economy picking as I see that as an umbrella for a number of approaches that include Frank’s sweep picking. Tbh I don’t know enough about the Chuck Wayne school to comment. I’m sure others here could chip in. He did have a specific system of left hand fingering.

Most players use slurs to deal with economy direction changes. I think iirc Gambale doesn’t use them favouring specific fingerings with even numbers of notes for direction changes right? Although I believe they are some violations of his own rule (there usually are, music is more messy.)

Yeah when Gambale is locked in and playing fast everything is picked, and direction changes are handled (usually) by playing an even number of notes on a string. Although, there are plenty of examples of him alternate picking, like in the Troy Grady interview. As I'm sure you know, the systems aren't mutually exclusive; where specific conditions are met, sweeping is used, but otherwise alternate picking governs.

I think non-economy moments are bound to happen in jazz. I feel like for improvised music, and especially harmonically challenging music, and really especially the more traditional straight ahead practices regarding rhythmic placement of chord and passing tones, it becomes less feasible to strictly economy pick and eliminate all alternate picking.

[princeplanet]

That's the whole problem with "picking systems" - you tend to play what the system allows you to play. Advanced level Jazz guitar improv (single line) is all about bridging the gap between what you "hear" and what you play. Now if you have spent years perfecting a picking system where you avoid "awkward" string changes by favouring things like even notes per string or employing mini sweeps in either direction, you don't "play what you hear", unless you only hear what you know you can play, under your system....

But this is very different when compared to how most other instruments play what they hear, the mechanics to most other instruments are less of an impediment, hence they are more free to play whatever they hear. Alternate picking mitigates this problem to a point, but at the expense of some expression lost that slurs, slides and sweeps can provide.
Having control of the pick when alt picking everything is difficult as we all know, but it can be done as masters like Pat Martino have shown. You will sound like a piano or vibes player where there is a percussive attack to every note, but hey, how many incredibly expressive piano and vibes players have we heard?

So yeah, the guitar pick is a bitch. No wonder the most expressive jazz guitarist of all time never used one...

[BreckerFan]

That's the whole problem with "picking systems" - you tend to play what the system allows you to play. Advanced level Jazz guitar improv (single line) is all about bridging the gap between what you "hear" and what you play. Now if you have spent years perfecting a picking system where you avoid "awkward" string changes by favouring things like even notes per string or employing mini sweeps in either direction, you don't "play what you hear", unless you only hear what you know you can play, under your system....

But this is very different when compared to how most other instruments play what they hear, the mechanics to most other instruments are less of an impediment, hence they are more free to play whatever they hear. Alternate picking mitigates this problem to a point, but at the expense of some expression lost that slurs, slides and sweeps can provide.
Having control of the pick when alt picking everything is difficult as we all know, but it can be done as masters like Pat Martino have shown. You will sound like a piano or vibes player where there is a percussive attack to every note, but hey, how many incredibly expressive piano and vibes players have we heard?

So yeah, the guitar pick is a bitch. No wonder the most expressive jazz guitarist of all time never used one...

All instruments have mechanical limitations that make playing certain things harder or easier. I think what makes guitar unique is that there are multiple ways to try and solve the mechanical problem, in a way that isn't true for a saxophone for example.

I don't think there's a particular picking method that solves it better or worse. Troy Grady has done a lot over the past several years to show that pretty much every picking method follows a set of rules, including even the most fluent alternate pickers. You'll rarely hear pure alternate picking used to play one note per string arpeggios, and even those who can probably can't do it as fast as those who use sweep picking. And all these solutions have different sounds. Sweeping a big multi string arpeggios has a particular sound you can't get with alternate picking, no matter how much technical ability you have.

I agree that the key is to try follow your ear as much as possible, but you still have to have some mechanical system to execute ideas. The solution I think is to hear the idea first, and then work on finding a way to play it with your preferred mechanical system. One thing that's helped me do this is transcribing non-guitarists. I was recently working on Trane's Oleo solo from Relaxin and trying to find fingerings that maximize the use of economy picking. Not everything can be made to fit the economy rules, but I don't think the point of the rules is to force everything to fit, it's to make things easier where possible. Another way I've found to work on it is to write etudes over tunes, same process.

Tying it all back to Gambale, I think one of the reasons I don't like his straight ahead playing as much is because it can sound like he's sweeping over a jazz tune, rather than playing a jazz tune using sweeping. Technique driven rather than ear driven. But then again that's true of every musician to a degree, there is no instrument that allows absolute expression unfiltered through technique.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah when Gambale is locked in and playing fast everything is picked, and direction changes are handled (usually) by playing an even number of notes on a string. Although, there are plenty of examples of him alternate picking, like in the Troy Grady interview. As I'm sure you know, the systems aren't mutually exclusive; where specific conditions are met, sweeping is used, but otherwise alternate picking governs.

I think non-economy moments are bound to happen in jazz. I feel like for improvised music, and especially harmonically challenging music, and really especially the more traditional straight ahead practices regarding rhythmic placement of chord and passing tones, it becomes less feasible to strictly economy pick and eliminate all alternate picking.

tbh the main purpose of a technique like sweep picking is to play fast, and these figures will be locked down in advance anyway.

This is as true for a straightahead jazz player as it is for a fusion guy. Where it gets a bit cleverer is where you can combine modules, but the basic idea is still the same.

Alternate picking is a good model if you want to play 8th notes at moderate tempo. It falls over when you want to phrase more diversely, such as incorporating triplets and so on, as well as on uptempo tunes for a lot of players (including many pros who change their approach as the tempo gets hot.) Most good bop players who phrase in a hornlike way and are not economy pickers use a mixed model with elements of economy and alternate (as well as left hand slurs). Some players like Mike stern and Pat Martino accept being locked into 8th notes.

Both approaches can work, but you do need to be very good at alt picking to use it as your only approach. Otoh - timing. Pick yer goblet of poison.

[pamosmusic]

All instruments have mechanical limitations that make playing certain things harder or easier. I think what makes guitar unique is that there are multiple ways to try and solve the mechanical problem, in a way that isn't true for a saxophone for example.

This is such an important point. We tend to think this is obvious when we’re talking about different instruments—i.e. obviously a saxophone conceives of different ideas than a singer or a guitarist. But we don’t really think it’s valid when we’re talking about two players with the same instrument. I certainly hear things that I can’t play, but I also train my ear by thinking of new stuff and playing it. So my ear is trained by what I’m able to play, as much as what I play is determined by what I hear.

I tend to be pretty skeptical of technical systems too, but not for that reason. More for the reason you talk about in the rest of the post—that guitar has so many ways to square the circle. I’d rather try to figure out the best way to reach any particular musical result than try to adhere to a picking system. Then again, I’m not very good at any picking systems, so if I really worked at one, I’d probably feel differently.

[Christian Miller]

That's the whole problem with "picking systems" - you tend to play what the system allows you to play. Advanced level Jazz guitar improv (single line) is all about bridging the gap between what you "hear" and what you play. Now if you have spent years perfecting a picking system where you avoid "awkward" string changes by favouring things like even notes per string or employing mini sweeps in either direction, you don't "play what you hear", unless you only hear what you know you can play, under your system....

But this is very different when compared to how most other instruments play what they hear, the mechanics to most other instruments are less of an impediment, hence they are more free to play whatever they hear. Alternate picking mitigates this problem to a point, but at the expense of some expression lost that slurs, slides and sweeps can provide.
Having control of the pick when alt picking everything is difficult as we all know, but it can be done as masters like Pat Martino have shown. You will sound like a piano or vibes player where there is a percussive attack to every note, but hey, how many incredibly expressive piano and vibes players have we heard?

So yeah, the guitar pick is a bitch. No wonder the most expressive jazz guitarist of all time never used one...

- it’s easy to look at other instruments with rose tinted spectacles
- playing other people’s music (composed or improvised) imo teaches you the most about technique
- i often think people on forums like this often have a more purist view of things like improv than pros

[pamosmusic]

- i often think people on forums like this often have a more purist view of things like improv than pros

Yeah that’s also interesting. Improvising is a continuum for sure. The ear hears something, the hands try to play it. The brain thinks of something, the hands try to play it. The hands play something rote, and the head tries to categorize it or the the ear tries to make it musical.

In an ideal world it would be all ear all the time, but you can’t hear something you haven’t prepared yourself to hear. (And before anyone piles on, note that I’m not saying you have to have practiced a thing before your ear can play it; you just have to have broadly introduced your ear to the sound and your hands to the technique.) And can’t play something you haven’t prepared yourself to play. So even an ideal world is dependent on the way you play and how you’ve practiced. And the world is far from ideal, so most days my brain and my hands are carrying it and the ear kind of passes judgment or something.

Every now and then, though, the ear really kind of gets in there.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah that’s also interesting. Improvising is a continuum for sure. The ear hears something, the hands try to play it. The brain thinks of something, the hands try to play it. The hands play something rote, and the head tries to categorize it or the the ear tries to make it musical.

In an ideal world it would be all ear all the time, but you can’t hear something you haven’t prepared yourself to hear. (And before anyone piles on, note that I’m not saying you have to have practiced a thing before your ear can play it; you just have to have broadly introduced your ear to the sound and your hands to the technique.) And can’t play something you haven’t prepared yourself to play. So even an ideal world is dependent on the way you play and how you’ve practiced. And the world is far from ideal, so most days my brain and my hands are carrying it and the ear kind of passes judgment or something.

Every now and then, though, the ear really kind of gets in there.

Peter Bernstein - ‘let me play it first, then hear it’

No honestly I think it’s central to practice the ear/instrument link.

Actually I think that’s less of a big deal than hearing stuff to begin with. That’s actually what ‘transcription’ is really all about IMO. Putting on the instrument is quite a concrete skill to practice once you have a clear aural fix on what you want to play.

but I think what people sometimes seem to think is that this is done in a note by note way. It’s not - it’s done in the equivalent of words and sentences - not letters. This can be linked to technique too of course.

So I don’t actually see it as a dichotomy. Barry Harris taught in modules and chunks, at tempo. At the sentence level if you like. You hear everything, but you hear phrases and phrase-lets not single notes.

There are tbf more purist note-by-note improv schools. Tristano school advocated slow single time improv (60-80bpm), informed by singing solos and so on. This school heavily emphasises pure improv. I haven’t worked on that stuff for a while. Slow improv is a really good exercise.

Otoh Ethan Iverson, a little playfully, recently suggested improv was in tension with groove and that the latter was more central to the core jazz tradition (he seems to have little time for the Tristano school tbh)

[DawgBone]

Strangely enough it's Gambale's 'smooth fusion' stuff I'm not so keen on - on the basis of his Stella, I prefer his straight-ahead playing.

I have to agree. He is really smooth with his left hand and clean with his right as a player and I think it lends itself to a good sound in the context of the video I shared. Something is lost for me when he adds gain. Maybe that more raw feeling. The fusion level gain reminds me of a bored rock guitarist except it's usually bordering shred metal tone. I also thought he sounded so great on that big Trini Lopez jazzbox vs an Ibanez with tons of gain. That is a great tone, even compared to the other vid where he is rocking a GB model.

I been watching a bunch of his videos since. He states he started out playing blues and demonstrates some "blues" playing. Yuck, sorry Frank. It is not surprising he moved on to other things judging by what I heard. I think he got bored, like a lot of guys do. Perhaps his ear and abilities are too advanced to tackle a more simplistic music endlessly.

Blues isn't thinking man's music. You gotta slow that blood flow to your brain down. Tighten your bandana. There is no "system" for blues beyond cliche beginner stuff nor is it really part of modern music education beyond basic minor pentatonics IME. It's glossed over because we gotta hit modes next. Then whole tone and diminshed stuff. That can be exciting as a player but you sound out of place in a blues setting. There are fewer chord changes to entertain you ear and to play off of. You have to do more with much less. Modern guitar education seems to focus on making well rounded players rather than distinctive ones. Too many spices you are supposed to be making a tasty soup with. Like a lot of modern guys, he adds clever outside stuff to his blues playing to keep it interesting for himself, but probably not those who pay a cover to watch a blues band. While technically and theoretically correct, it sounds out of place. Like a guy wearing a tuxedo to a job cleaning bathrooms and mopping floors. Unnecessarily dressed up.

I like blues playing like Chris Cain where the tone and feeling is there. I like his unique interpretations to standard blues playing without violating the norms by trying to get too clever. Nowadays there are guys making blues guitar videos who aren't even blues guitarists. Session guys. For money, no doubt. Don't get me wrong, there are great players among them they mostly just make shitty blues instructors. Besides, it's not really a music that is taught as much as it is a music that is learned. Anyhow, just a few thoughts worth what you paid for them.

[BreckerFan]

This is the kind of stuff I love Gambale for. A nice angular fusion tune and blistering lines. Unapologetically FG. The other guys are ripping too.

[starjasmine]

I like blues playing like Chris Cain where the tone and feeling is there.

Interestingly, Chris can play straight-ahead jazz with the best of them.

Your point about too many flavors is spot on. Chris has all those spices in his cabinet, but he knows which ones to use, and when. I don't think I've ever heard him do anything "jazzy" when playing blues, but he never ceases to amaze and delight. He definitely has a unique blues voice that is powerful and engaging, without resorting to artifice. I don't want to go all fanboy here, but you can tell that he feels what he plays, and the audience can't help but feel it, too.

[DawgBone]

Interestingly, Chris can play straight-ahead jazz with the best of them.

Your point about too many flavors is spot on. Chris has all those spices in his cabinet, but he knows which ones to use, and when. I don't think I've ever heard him do anything "jazzy" when playing blues, but he never ceases to amaze and delight. He definitely has a unique blues voice that is powerful and engaging, without resorting to artifice. I don't want to go all fanboy here, but you can tell that he feels what he plays, and the audience can't help but feel it, too.

All good. I am a big fan of Chris, I just wish he would hit Texas on his tours once in a while. I was aware Chris was adept at jazz, I just am not sure to what degree. I know he knows his way around a keyboard as well. Just a talented guy with a great feel for what he does.

I value Chris a lot because he does blues like I heard growing up, and that has become kind of rare TBH. Driving band. Singing lead guitar. Solid vocals. Most blues, asides a few living masters, is either blues-rock, embarrasing cartoon level cliches, or T-Bone emulators doing west coast swing. As you said, Chris never resorts to artifice. He uses the right mixture for the music. I think that is why I dug the Gambale video I posted so much. His smooth, flowing style fits right in there because it's relaxed and seems effortless. I don't have big tastes for smooth jazz, but Frank is so comfortable and in his element there that it feels "real". He ain't going through the motions as though he plays smooth jazz on tuesdays, rock on wednesdays, and country on the weekends. He isn't coming off as a guy trying to shoehorn his playing into a genre. He sounds like he IS the genre. Same with Chris. Like George Benson. All the right elements applied so tastefully. I guess that's why it captured my attention so much.

[Irishmuso]

This Frank Gambale sweep picking thread made me think about how I have a hard time playing Freedom Jazz Dance. The melody is based on fourths and I've always played it with a sweep, never constantly well. I've tried all sorts of different fingerings, etc. but it always sounds sloppy.

So I've decided to learn it with strict up/down picking, and after a couple days it seems to work better. The sound is stronger, the rhythm is tighter and I can place accents better.

I found the same thing. Those fourths were surprisingly awkward - worth presevering though.

[Reg]

Do any of you... actually play and enjoy it. I understand the entertain aspect... but it can also be FUN.

Sweeps are just part of technique, they're great way for framing, spelling or playing changes. Kind of like being able to play embellishments but with more fun. Yea... alternating picking is required for most of us mortal players.

I've always had good things to say about Gambale... still do.

[Christian Miller]

I can assure you I never have any fun of any kind

[ccroft]

I found the same thing. Those fourths were surprisingly awkward - worth presevering though.

Just a thought on FJDance: I found that some of the passages are a lot easier for me to play cleanly (and faster) if I play some of the 4ths on the same string, with a stretch. Like the first 4 notes for EG. I can skip a string better than i can arpeggiate over 4 strings, depending on tempo. It's not much of a stretch for me in the middle of the fretboard. I do play 24 3/4 scale tho.

It only took several decades for me to try it. I noticed Sylvain Luc doing it in a video. It's hard work to give up something you've figured out for yourself and know inside and out for a very different way, but for me it worked out well.

Speaking of sweeping, don't forget Joe Diorio. Frank's got nothing on him in this department, and being some 20+ yrs older I wouldn't be surprised if he was doing it when Frank was still in diapers. Joe has an arpeggio lesson on youtube somewhere that's quite impressive. I think he'd sweep those 4ths with no trouble whatsoever, and at any tempo a horn player cared to count off.

[jameslovestal]

Just a thought on FJDance: I found that some of the passages are a lot easier for me to play cleanly (and faster) if I play some of the 4ths on the same string, with a stretch. Like the first 4 notes for EG. I can skip a string better than i can arpeggiate over 4 strings, depending on tempo. It's not much of a stretch for me in the middle of the fretboard. I do play 24 3/4 scale tho.

It only took several decades for me to try it. I noticed Sylvain Luc doing it in a video. It's hard work to give up something you've figured out for yourself and know inside and out for a very different way, but for me it worked out well.

Speaking of sweeping, don't forget Joe Diorio. Frank's got nothing on him in this department, and being some 20+ yrs older I wouldn't be surprised if he was doing it when Frank was still in diapers. Joe has an arpeggio lesson on youtube somewhere that's quite impressive. I think he'd sweep those 4ths with no trouble whatsoever, and at any tempo a horn player cared to count off.

Joe Diorio lived very close to me, in San Clemente CA, and I saw him at a Marriott hotel bar a few times where he would just drop in to play with Larry Koonse's trio (they both taught at USC). This was around 2001 or so. Diorio's technique was fantastic, and I would marvel at his sweep picking. Of course, he was very soulful and musical. Koonse is a chord monster, and I found their different approach to playing ended up making magical music.

The only sad thing was that there were only around 15 people there and most were just staying at the hotel and didn't appear to be jazz fans. There was no cover and from my POV this was the best thing going on in all of So Cal at the time!

[princeplanet]

- ....
- i often think people on forums like this often have a more purist view of things like improv than pros

Ouch, there's that ice-pick of truth again! Reminds me of the time I approached a piano player after a gig where he was Boppin' his ass off, killer lines all night.
I said something like "Hey, sounds like you've put a lot of work into perfecting every single possible way to play enclosures".

He said "What's an enclosure?" ...

[Flat]

I'm not sure if this is the video that ccroft was referring to, but if you wanna hear Joe Diorio doing some slick string sweeps, check out the first few minutes of this video.