Re: the "el lame'o" guitarists who ain't got no soul

[MrTriangle]

According to George Clinton , " What is soul ? .....soul is a ham hock in your cornflakes "

op. cit.

TBH I think all the soul went out of music around the time of Dufay and Ockeghem but I realise this is a minority opinion .

[James Haze]

Random enthusiasm

[A. Kingstone]

I never heard Barry Harris mention the words 'soul and jazz' in the same sentence positively.

That said I can be a very ham handed player.

[James Haze]

I've noticed quite a few people using the word "feeling" as a synonym for having soul in music. I would say they definitely are strongly related. I also think that how to put feeling into your playing, or discerning how other really good players are accomplishing that, is probably something one should consider. That stuff is some good mojo to have in your playing, Right?

[Bobby Timmons]

BH had a lot of feeling in his playing, but not much 'soul.' Soul and feeling are not synonyms. I stand by my definitions of soul from my original post I made on it. I think it's accurate.

The definition of soul: we all instinctively know what it means. I think there are 2 basic definitions. The main definition is black gritty emotion applied to black types of music.

I think white musicians can pull off the main definition.

Then I think there's a broader definition that's an offshute meaning deep emotion in the music similar to the black definition but not required to be black or black music.

For example, I think Cobain was pretty soulful.

[Litterick]

But that would imply the feeling HAS to come from the musician, if it's going to "pass into you"... because it's got to come from somewhere?

It comes from the audience as much as the from the artist. The audience comprises individuals who have come together to enjoy a collective experience (much like a church congregation). They are expecting to be moved, individually and collectively. The aesthetic experience happens between the creator and the recipient.

[Bop Head]

By random I just came across this:

From "How To Perform Autophysiopsychic Music" by Yusef Lateef (2. ed. 1995, in which he BTW acknowledges "the technical assistance of Barry Harris")

THE SOUL

Many questions have been asked concerning the soul. What is it? Where does it come from? How is it developed? Why is it important? What significance is it?

The soul is the genesis to human life. It is born with the individual and is the gyrating force which determines the thought processes of good and evil. It does not descend from the heavens or from any outside place. When a person is born he/she has all the properties that makes an individual whole, including the soul. As with puberty, when a certain age is reached, human being become cognizant of their sexual powers. At certain stages of development the musician becomes cognizant of their soul, or that there exists within the self: a soul. It is at first hidden and imperceptive, though its essence is contained in the body as a seed within a shell, and as the body is gradually developed, the soul grows along with it and becomes manifest. It is a bright essence. It is latent in the seed as fire is latent in the flint. When this inner light is flashed before the individual he/she becomes consciously aware that within is a force to explore-then the individual sets out to know more about it.

The soul is an entity with extreme importance. If great emphasis is placed on physical and intellectual development and none given to the soul, there is an imbalance in the nature of the human being. All things in life are governed by the law of nature. There are as well laws governing the soul. It stands to reason that soul-development plays an intense role in the social habits of man, particularly noticeable among the artists. He/she must strive to gain the highest level of consciousness and awareness by developing the mind, body and soul on an even balance. What follows is pure, individual, creative expression.

All things and beings in the universe are connected with each other, visibly or invisibly and through vibrations of the soul are the most powerful and for reaching. Soul-vibrations communicate like an electric current from soul to soul, they work through the chord of sympathy existing between man and his/her surroundings and reveal past, present and sometirnes future conditions. When a person speaks, thinks, or feels either harshly or kindly of another, it reaches the spirit of that one either consciously or unconsciously by the power of vibrations, If we happen to be offended with someone and do not show it in speech or action, yet it still cannot be hidden, for the vibrations of our feelings will reach directly to the person in question and he/she will begin to feel our displeasure, however far away he/she may be. The same is the case with our love and pleasure however we may try to conceal it in speech or action it cannot be hidden. In the activity of all things the pitch is recognized by the seer, as a musician knows the key in which any particular music is written. Man's atmosphere tells the grade of the activity or his/her vibrations and these are felt through the soul.

Autophysiopsychic music allows the performer to deliver his/her message or say what he/she has to say musically. With his/her soul attuned to other souls he/she is capable of giving deep and far reaching experiences. If the musician is in harmony with the self and humanity, great spiritual heights maybe obtained. Their expressions will be a continuous cycle of the pouring forth of heart and soul.

[ragman1]

I've noticed quite a few people using the word "feeling" as a synonym for having soul in music. I would say they definitely are strongly related. I also think that how to put feeling into your playing, or discerning how other really good players are accomplishing that, is probably something one should consider. That stuff is some good mojo to have in your playing, Right?

I used the word feeling as a more accessible term for soul rather than getting caught up in metaphysical stuff that doesn't really convey anything. But it's not just any feeling. I mean, you could play with anger or because you're miserable today, or some other passing sentiment. Nor is it getting carried away with gushing emotionalism.

It just means that the music has depth, a sense of it being real, genuine, not imitative or just for show. Again, these are just words but the words aren't the thing itself.

I'm actually amazed we're having to discuss it so much. To quote Louis Armstrong, 'if you have to ask what jazz is you'll never know'. Same thing with soul. You know it when you hear it. Or maybe you don't, of course!

[Bop Head]

BH had a lot of feeling in his playing, but not much 'soul.' Soul and feeling are not synonyms. I stand by my definitions of soul from my original post I made on it. I think it's accurate.

Are you aware that Barry Harris' mother was a church pianist, that Barry and Berry Gordy (later Motown Records boss) were in friendly competition about who was the best boogie-woogie pianist in school and that Cannonball Adderley wanted to have Barry in his band (but Barry quit after one tour and half an album called "Them Dirty Blues")?

[Bobby Timmons]

I didn't know that. He's still not much of a 'soulful' player even if he plays jazz blues.

[ragman1]

The thread title doesn't actually specify which kind of guitarist is so soulless. We've centred on blues, naturally, but I don't think the jazz guitar is really given to 'soul' as such.

I don't think I can put my finger on any particular player whose jazz playing is full of 'soul'. Wes, maybe. Maybe I'm missing something. The sax, sounding like the human voice, can convey emotion fairly deeply but perhaps the guitar is a bit thin for that unless it's playing something a bit more visceral.

[thelostboss]

The feeling and degree of experienced "soul" can also depend on the degree of of intoxication of the listener, be it spiritual, physical or chemical.

While it may be obvious that many performers put 'soul" into their performances, the perception of "soul" also depends on the listener.

From my own experience as a listener I can say that this is highly variable. One day I may listen to a particular performance that moves me to an incredible extent, another day it might be something that I " just listen to".

YMMV

Cheers

TLB

[ragman1]

Exactly.

[dot75]

You don’t have to feel it - they should feel it.

Anyway this always makes me think of acting. Stanislavsky Vs the English Technical school

I haven't worked this out yet myself - reminds me of a Laurence Olivier story.

He was doing his thing in (I think) Shakespeare & let out a blood curdling scream as he left the stage,

as he passed the Method actor (can't remember who) waiting to go on he winked, grinned & whispered 'got 'em!'

Method actor was most upset & told Olivier he was 'cheating' - Olivier said he'd read that wild mink were captured by

putting salt on the ice of frozen rivers, the mink would lick it & their tongues would freeze them to the ground, hunter gets

the Mink without any damage to the fur.

'I just think about that dear boy, much easier'

[James Haze]

According to George Clinton , " What is soul ? .....soul is a ham hock in your cornflakes "

op. cit.

.

George Clinton is someone who knows what soul is in music. Parliament Funkadelic is full of soul and funky. He also has a fun sense of humor, which he quite often put into his lyrics.

[ruger9]

Dunno, that’s above my pay grade. Theists are going tie it in to their beliefs, new age types something else, atheists will have another explanation and so on. It doesn’t change anything.

But... atheists don't believe in "soul"

[James Haze]

Who is that

I'm a bit surprised you're on the jazz guitar forum. And you don't immediately know who "the giant" Joe is. It's Mr. Passalacgua.

[ruger9]

I'm a bit surprised you're on the jazz guitar forum. And you don't immediately know who "the giant" Joe is. It's Mr. Passalacgua.

Oh come on... I'm sure he knows who JOE PASS is, he just didn't know who "the giant Joe" was.

[dconeill]

"El Lame-o"? Seriously?

[Bop Head]

Oh come on... I'm sure he knows who JOE PASS is, he just didn't know who "the giant Joe" was.

Of course I know who Joe Pass was, I just did not know that nickname.

[DawgBone]

"El Lame-o"? Seriously?

It bothers you deep down in your soul.

[lawson-stone]

Y

So I can like an artists' music without it being in the soulful music category, BUT their music still has to be slammin' and on point, not aimless fast noodling all the time that doesn't seem to convey emotions or have a point to it. Great jazz guitar improv, or any style for that matter, tells a story, a narrative, with great phrasing, great sense of direction, a style that builds to a climax, or several climaxes , then comes to a beautiful resolution, like a good story; and it really connects with the rhythm that's going on behind it, for example.

So no, I don't just say music has soul if I like it, and say it doesn't if I don't like it. That is really over simplistic thinking, IMO.

Now I'm confused. You set up this thread as a contrast between "el lame'o" as lacking soul, in contrast with those that do. So if the opposite of having soul is "el lame'o" maybe you need to clarify why the music that you say you like but still isn't soulful is not "el lame'o" music.

[lawson-stone]

You'll have to excuse them, the 60 year old retired hobbyists who mostly comprise this forum's userbase can't help but embarrass themselves at every opportunity.

And who buy most the albums, buy most of the guitars, buy the books, and keep the jazz enterprise afloat.

Really, this is just a cheap shot. You told us more about yourself here than you did about the "60 year old retired hobbyists" who just play the music because they love it with a passion a drone like you could not possibly comprehend.

[lawson-stone]

Any true Scotsman has soul. If you don't have soul, you're not a true Scotsman.

I saw what you did there! Excellent.

[ragman1]

Of course I know who Joe Pass was, I just did not know that nickname.

Passalacqua is not his nickname, it's his real name.

Joe Pass (born Joseph Anthony Jacobi Passalacqua)

Joe Pass - Wikipedia

But, for what it's worth, I didn't know he was called 'Giant Joe' either. I've never heard it.