Re: the "el lame'o" guitarists who ain't got no soul

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Lighten up, Francis. “Soul” was a style of African American music, not a religious reference. Ever hear of a “soul singer”? Did you think that was a church choir singer?

[DawgBone]

The views of the forum can be summed up as:

blues=my favorite guitarists who include some pentatonic licks in their playing

soul=my favorite guitarists making music I think has feeling

This also means Mannheim Steamroller is classical next to bach and mozart, the Grateful Dead are a country band like Hank Sr and Haggard, and yanni is right up there with Wes and Coltrane in the jazz world. A riding lawnmower is a car because "it has wheels bro", my cabin is a skyscraper because it has windows, and my brother is my sister because he feels like a girl today. It's like the twilight zone. Or the gear page.....

[Cunamara]

When someone has soul...
it is described in various ways

the truth
testifying
giving witness
laying it down
preaching
speaking to you

You can recall others. The main idea is that they are described as having something to say, and they are communicating it, it's message is definitely getting out.

Sure. But what speaks to me may not speak to you. What sounds like the truth to you may sound like BS to me. So who's right? That's the problem here- "soul" is not some objective metric.

[StringNavigator]

The point is, I think, is that you don't have to to define it - just express it... If you need a definition (and I hope you don't and are just trolling), then maybe you'll never get it... ?

A romantic gesture to be sure, but...

English is a language consisting of a vocabulary with multiple meanings. Just as we don't know anything about something until we measure it, discussions get mighty confused when everyone has a differing concept for the same word. And why run away from defining "soul"? What's to be gained by that?

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• 1.
  the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.
  "they believe death is just one step in a soul's journey through the universe"
• 2.
  emotional or intellectual energy or intensity, especially as revealed in a work of art or an artistic performance.
  "their interpretation lacked soul"

The quality of a person or work of art that shows or produces deep good feelings:

If you can't enjoy this music you've got no soul.
For me her paintings somehow lack soul.
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So, emotional energy/intensity as revealed in a performance?
It must touch you on an emotional level?
Communicate a feeling? Like Celine Dion?
Make you cry? Edith Piaf comes to mind... Intensely emotional performing and music.

Talking to the bus driver? Nope.
Talking to your wife? Always.

Were Gordon Lightfoot's songs emotional. Often... Like the Edmund Fitzgerald. Black Day in July...

Was Winchester Cathedral, Kaiser Bill's Batman, Mellow Yellow or Last Train to Clarksville soulful?
How about D.W.Washburn?

I think that Satisfaction and Last Time were soulful. But that's me.

Is Big band Swing emotional...? I don't know. It's happy and it swings. Most big bands did put their emotional energy into what they were playing. Some were rather light on that.

Elevator music is not very emotional. But it's meant to be light and superficial.

Some here could say that a performance is soulful, while others would disagree. It's almost always relative, but often there is unanimous agreement.

Watching Wes Montgomery or Jimmy Smith play may not impart feelings that would be considered soulful, as they appear quite serene, but you could tell that they poured their life into what they played. Did it pull up emotions within you? Maybe. But most might find it sounding interesting or displaying prowess on an instrument.

The onus is on the teller to explain exactly what they are trying to communicate. Just what does he or she mean?

Telling an artist that his or her work has no soul is highly insulting. It certainly conveys emotion, but I wouldn't consider it to be soulful.

::

[StringNavigator]

People have abandoned faith in christ, and the church, which was the great progenitor of "soul". Most of that type of music you are talking about, and the feeling it gives, is borrowed from the church/gospel realm. It's not sensible to expect people who deny man has a soul, or spirit, to produce soul infused music. There are atheist bluegrass artists cutting gospel songs for an audience they don't actually share any values with. That's bullshit music even if it has great guitar picking. There is no point if the meaning is lost to the performer.

Heck most top 40 music now is actively filled with satanic, witchcraft, and dark occult themes you would've previously only found in black metal music. You have some of the biggest name artists along with their record companies actively promoting that kind of symbolism and imagery to the youth as cool and trendy. What they share in common with the bluegrass artist is they are all doing it for the money. You cannot serve God and money both....

So well said. It is those with Faith in the Lord that created the civilisation that we all now enjoy. When that disappears, there is no standard and everything disintegrates. Even for the atheist. All our laws and civilised customs and behaviours stem from belief in God. Strong in my Faith, and disturbed by politics in America and Canada, I'm beginning to turn from the godless West and look at India, Russia and the Muslim world as the last of God's people. I'm shocked at the changes being made here. Let's hope the disease of hopelessness abates and the lost turn away from their path to destruction, because we will all be dragged down. I'm glad to be 70 in 2023 and making my exit soon rather than turning 70 in 2033 and having to face what most people here will have to endure.

::

[ragman1]

It is those with Faith in the Lord that created the civilisation that we all now enjoy.

Oh, did they! You mean this crime-riddled, insane, chaotic mess we call society? God help us, is what I say!

[Christian Miller]

Religion and music have always been closely intertwined - but the relationship is complex and sometimes antagonistic.

Religion can't get over the sneaking suspicion that music is a form of idolatry, a view which I think is pretty justified tbh haha.

[djg]

I'm beginning to turn from the godless West and look at India, Russia and the Muslim world as the last of God's people. :

so you can window shop for gods these days?

[Jimmy Smith]

[Jimmy Smith]

In defense of the op, there probably is less aggregate soul this century compared to last. But there's still good, valid, and soulful music today.

In defense of the definition of soul: we all know what it means. I think there are 2 basic definitions. The main definition is black gritty emotion applied to black types of music.

I think white musicians can pull off the main definition.

Then I think there's a broader definition that's an offshute meaning deep feeling in the music similar to the black definition but not required to be black or black music.

For example, I think Cobain was pretty soulful.

[ruger9]

So well said. It is those with Faith in the Lord that created the civilisation that we all now enjoy. When that disappears, there is no standard and everything disintegrates. Even for the atheist. All our laws and civilised customs and behaviours stem from belief in God. Strong in my Faith, and disturbed by politics in America and Canada, I'm beginning to turn from the godless West and look at India, Russia and the Muslim world as the last of God's people. I'm shocked at the changes being made here. Let's hope the disease of hopelessness abates and the lost turn away from their path to destruction, because we will all be dragged down. I'm glad to be 70 in 2023 and making my exit soon rather than turning 70 in 2033 and having to face what most people here will have to endure.

::

I agree with you, altho I'm not sure the Muslim "ideal" of religion and govt being the same thing is such a great idea.... if today's muslim world is any indication.

The end is coming... sooner rather than later? Maybe, if our upside-down inside-out culture is any indication. But there's no point in worrying about it. It's coming whether we want it to for not, as you know. So no point in dreading it, best to just be prepared for it (spiritually).

[lawson-stone]

I can't really say a player does or doesn't have soul. I can say how I feel about that player's music, but if I don't think that player has soul, maybe it means I need to broaden my vision of music. I remember listening to Pat Metheny and just wanting to run from the room screaming. I hated it. Too techno, to effects laden, to complicated. Then one day I was driving (all my musical epiphanies happen in the car for some reason) and a track came on that just gutted me, I was breathless.. and it was Pat Metheny. Not playing anything different, but somehow over time, I had grown and expanded my receptivity and awareness of music, and suddenly Metheny spoke to me. I became a fan, and to me Pat's playing not only drips with soul, it carries stacks of other messages and meanings. My first "knocked me to the floor" experience was Joe Pass playing "Stomping at the Savoy" on one of his solo albums. It just killed me, not the technique or virtuosity (that was there, of course) but I just heard this one guy and a guitar putting it out there, making me want to believe. Then I hear others say they think Joe Pass "phones it in" or something. Well, those people might need to expand their horizons, or they might have grown past enjoying Joe Pass, or they might just have a different vision of what they search for in music.

Anyway, I think accusations of musicians being soul-less are more statements about the speaker than about the musician.

[Jimmy Smith]

So well said. It is those with Faith in the Lord that created the civilisation that we all now enjoy. When that disappears, there is no standard and everything disintegrates. Even for the atheist. All our laws and civilised customs and behaviours stem from belief in God. Strong in my Faith, and disturbed by politics in America and Canada, I'm beginning to turn from the godless West and look at India, Russia and the Muslim world as the last of God's people. I'm shocked at the changes being made here. Let's hope the disease of hopelessness abates and the lost turn away from their path to destruction, because we will all be dragged down. I'm glad to be 70 in 2023 and making my exit soon rather than turning 70 in 2033 and having to face what most people here will have to endure.

::

I agree with you, altho I'm not sure the Muslim "ideal" of religion and govt being the same thing is such a great idea.... if today's muslim world is any indication.

The end is coming... sooner rather than later? Maybe, if our upside-down inside-out culture is any indication. But there's no point in worrying about it. It's coming whether we want it to for not, as you know. So no point in dreading it, best to just be prepared for it (spiritually).

1 John 5:19 We know that we are children of God and that the whole of the world is under control of the evil one.

In other words, that's how it is. Bless

[DawgBone]

So well said. It is those with Faith in the Lord that created the civilisation that we all now enjoy. When that disappears, there is no standard and everything disintegrates. Even for the atheist. All our laws and civilised customs and behaviours stem from belief in God. Strong in my Faith, and disturbed by politics in America and Canada, I'm beginning to turn from the godless West and look at India, Russia and the Muslim world as the last of God's people. I'm shocked at the changes being made here. Let's hope the disease of hopelessness abates and the lost turn away from their path to destruction, because we will all be dragged down. I'm glad to be 70 in 2023 and making my exit soon rather than turning 70 in 2033 and having to face what most people here will have to endure.

::

The answer is found in holy orthodoxy. No ecumenism. No innovation. No modernization. No compromises. No courtrooms, only a hospital. As Saint Andrew, the first called of Christ says, "Come and see".

I found the gateway to heaven in an alleyway in a small hick town in Texas right off the square.

[dot75]

S I'm beginning to turn from the godless West and look at India, Russia and the Muslim world as the last of God's people.

I have my own concerns about the direction we're heading, more for my kids than for me, but as someone who lived & ran a business in a muslim country for 10+ years & visted most of the rest (except Indonesia, admittedly the most populous), and has lived and worked in India you may want to do some research before looking that way - you know many of those countries still have slave markets right ? treatment of women ?

Sources- been to a physical one (Mauritania - although officially illegal since 1980 something).

wife's cousin passed through a couple on the way to Europe from Senegal, (He's in Italy now & doing great, driving a delivery truck, going to school, building a house back home).

This was 2021-2022

One of the people on a trip to Mecca a friends' father was on went off piste, (they get escorted everywhere & he took a wrong turn ) He only realised what it was when the police interviewed him at length to make sure he understood it wasn't a slave market (they were not selling indian & filipino workers).

This was three days ago.

Agents promising 'domestic work' in Muslim (Arab mainly) countries are in most of the (20 odd) black African countries I've spent time in.

The majority (of the slave markets) are now online - source Facebook etc, although BBC & (I think) CNN have both aired documentaries recently.

They're easy to find if you speak Arabic, I dont but know people who do, & several people my wife grew up with have changed their minds about applying for such work after being sent the links.

As for India I spent less than 12 months there but the fact that 25-35% of the people are 'scheduled caste', the tens of millions of 'missing' women & girls, might give me pause for thought. Gotta say I enjoyed the temples dedicated to various animal gods, Karni Mata, where rats are worshipped freaked my then girlfriend out & my ex-fisherman's mindset probably didn't help in the temple where fish were the deity being worshipped - not sure what they were but they looked like Mullet, (Mullet are tasty).

That said I'd argue that it's a better attitude to animals than that in the rest of the world.

Conversations with Indian friends, mainly former colleagues (all male obviously) confirm the treatment of women I saw in India.

As to 'Soul', it was the music that took me to Senegal to live after 15 years of (on and off) wandering around Africa.

I had no idea what was being sung about but I was certain it was true & it really moved me, luckily for me when I ldid learn the language it got even better.

Russia ?

[DawgBone]

Russia ?

Maybe one of the only things Putin has done right is to pour the money and resources into the restoration of Russian orthodox churches and monasteries that were foolishly destroyed, torn down, and neglected by the bolsheviks and it's priests imprisoned, exiled, or murdered. It was the greatest disgrace. There is a great documentary on Valaam, known as the Mt. Athos of the north.

[northernbreed]

People have abandoned faith in christ, and the church, which was the great progenitor of "soul". Most of that type of music you are talking about, and the feeling it gives, is borrowed from the church/gospel realm. It's not sensible to expect people who deny man has a soul, or spirit, to produce soul infused music. There are atheist bluegrass artists cutting gospel songs for an audience they don't actually share any values with. That's bullshit music even if it has great guitar picking. There is no point if the meaning is lost to the performer.

Heck most top 40 music now is actively filled with satanic, witchcraft, and dark occult themes you would've previously only found in black metal music. You have some of the biggest name artists along with their record companies actively promoting that kind of symbolism and imagery to the youth as cool and trendy. What they share in common with the bluegrass artist is they are all doing it for the money. You cannot serve God and money both....

Thanks for this completely ridiculous nonsense. Blessings.

[Jonah]

One can teach to be meaningful (of a student some basic ear and natural ability of course).
and tbh I would rather do it with classical music (if a student is interested in it of course) because it shows much more clearly all the possibilities of various language tools and idioms and how the composers create very complex meanings in artistic form.
In great music the meaning is transcendental, it penetrates the languge. The language doe not express it, the language creates it.

From my experience if someone hears that it in classical musc is no problem with other musical languages like modal harmony or whatever else.
Because then the creation (not even expression but creation) of meaning becomes a main goal.

You can call it soulfulness too - at least for me the soul is the integrity of the personal individual spirit which renders the meaning to everything this person touches.

People often associate 'soul' with sentimentality or pure emotions. It is not necessarily so for me.
Ideas, feelings - everything works together - soul is personal integrity.

Mostly when someone says - 'it is music from the head' - I understand it rather as the structural elements are used without actual contents (not quite that it is the music of ideas agains music of emotions - it is very superficial and blatant dichotomy in my opinion).

If I can teach a person to hear all the interconnections of meanings in Mozart's symphony if I feel that he is not just about composition technique but he transcends it and connects directly with the meaning - I have no doubt he/she will be able to bring into his jazz performance.

[DawgBone]

Thanks for this completely ridiculous nonsense. Blessings.

[ruger9]

Maybe one of the only things Putin has done right is to pour the money and resources into the restoration of Russian orthodox churches and monasteries that were foolishly destroyed, torn down, and neglected by the bolsheviks and it's priests imprisoned, exiled, or murdered. It was the greatest disgrace. There is a great documentary on Valaam, known as the Mt. Athos of the north.

If you think Putin or the Russian establishment in general is "pro" religion, you really haven't been paying attention. As glad as I am to see historic churches restored, Russia is no friend to religion. "Under Mussolini, at least the trains ran on time."

[DawgBone]

I bet if we were talking about soul in terms of food instead of music a bunch of forum members would claim spaghetti and haggis counted.

My favorite meal=soul food cause it's my favorite food.

[DawgBone]

If you think Putin or the Russian establishment in general is "pro" religion, you really haven't been paying attention. As glad as I am to see historic churches restored, Russia is no friend to religion. "Under Mussolini, at least the trains ran on time."

You didn't watch the documentary. If pouring tens of millions in state funds back into the restoration of orthodox churches and monasteries isn't being pro religion I would have to ask you what makes a state pro religious then?

[djg]

I would have to ask you what makes a state pro religious then?

stoning would come to mind. or maybe witch burning?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

People have abandoned faith in christ, and the church, which was the great progenitor of "soul". Most of that type of music you are talking about, and the feeling it gives, is borrowed from the church/gospel realm. It's not sensible to expect people who deny man has a soul, or spirit, to produce soul infused music. There are atheist bluegrass artists cutting gospel songs for an audience they don't actually share any values with. That's bullshit music even if it has great guitar picking. There is no point if the meaning is lost to the performer.

Heck most top 40 music now is actively filled with satanic, witchcraft, and dark occult themes you would've previously only found in black metal music. You have some of the biggest name artists along with their record companies actively promoting that kind of symbolism and imagery to the youth as cool and trendy. What they share in common with the bluegrass artist is they are all doing it for the money. You cannot serve God and money both....

Y'all said the magic word!

[DawgBone]

Y'all said the magic word!

Ha, nice. My fave current modern bluegrass is the Kody Norris show. One of a few new bg artists that still has that old time high lonesome sound....