Re: the "el lame'o" guitarists who ain't got no soul

[Christian Miller]

Otoh If you are into the Anglo-Catholic side of things, you better have bullet proof sight reading…

Early in our relationship my wife got me on a Sunday morning gig at a high Anglican Church St Magnus - the one that used to be next to the old (medieval) London Bridge. I was expected to sight sing a Monteverdi mass one voice a part. I’d sung in plenty of chamber choirs, and I have OK sight singing chops, but I did not fare well lol.

I miss the choir singing though. Lovely to go sing a bit of Bach over a weekend… miss it. Maybe when the kids are little older.

[DawgBone]

yes I think maybe Dawg had more in mind ‘worship music’ which I gather is a thing stateside. I think it’s more of a CCM vibe, which is to say pop/rock style?

Its not Bach.

But the chance to play with a killing gospel rhythm section every Sunday… I think a lot of people would do that money and god nonwithstanding

I once told a student who was struggling with his time to ‘get religion’. I was half joking but by the next lesson he’d been playing every Sunday with a church band and his feel had noticeably improved.

Yes, protestant worship music. CCM, yuck, lol. It's definitely a thing in a lot of churches now. I don't agree with it personally but I know a few guys who are not believers that do the gigs for the paycheck. Kinda like playing country music. It isn't a lot of guy's first choice but the money is there so the players are. Top flight sound systems, full production, the best gear, knowledgeable sound people and no slogging gear around is what makes it tempting for some.

In the black church there are a lot of great musicians, some of whom refuse to play secular music and some who do. But it's a great resource of new ideas so to me it's worth listening to sometimes because it bleeds over into hip hop and RnB stuff by default. Kinda like that Kirk Franklin stuff you posted. Or the Barnes family outta the Carolinas. Or Jonathan Dubose. Erick Walls. Isaiah Sharkey. Some insane talent there. Theologically outside my realm but very much in my realm with the chords, basslines, and drum grooves. Soul.

[Christian Miller]

Re pay check work you could say the same sort of thing about theatre work… although increasingly that’s something that’s harder and harder to break into.

that first Kevin Franklin tune could have been a R&B number with a couple of small lyrical tweaks.

The black churches are a big source of musical talent here in the UK too. Lot of great players.

[sgcim]

Yes, protestant worship music. CCM, yuck, lol. It's definitely a thing in a lot of churches now. I don't agree with it personally but I know a few guys who are not believers that do the gigs for the paycheck. Kinda like playing country music. It isn't a lot of guy's first choice but the money is there so the players are. Top flight sound systems, full production, the best gear, knowledgeable sound people and no slogging gear around is what makes it tempting for some.

In the black church there are a lot of great musicians, some of whom refuse to play secular music and some who do. But it's a great resource of new ideas so to me it's worth listening to sometimes because it bleeds over into hip hop and RnB stuff by default. Kinda like that Kirk Franklin stuff you posted. Or the Barnes family outta the Carolinas. Or Jonathan Dubose. Erick Walls. Isaiah Sharkey. Some insane talent there. Theologically outside my realm but very much in my realm with the chords, basslines, and drum grooves. Soul.

My fave gospel singer, Marion Williams, refused to sing ANY secular music right to the end. She made a record with Milt Jackson and Ray Brown ,"Much in Common", but not one standard on the record. They even got the top studio guys in NY for another album she made, Keith Jarrett, Joe Zawinul , Bernard Purdie, Chuck Rainey, etc..., and she still refused to sing any secular music. They used one tune from that LP on a commercial for a non-profit group during Yankee baseball games, and that's where I first heard her. I was just a little kid, but it stayed with me for years till I found it in a used record store. Thomas Dorsey tune.

[sgcim]

must … resist…

I can’t.

I mean plainchant has been pretty essential to the development of counterpoint and harmony in western music…. Even in the Middle Ages c14 secular songs were often based on a plainchant tenor, often greatly augmented. This practice of quite literally using plainchant as an organisational structure persisted into the Renaissance and formed a basic part of C18 pedagogy. That stuff has a really long history.

The very basis of V I tonality is based on the characteristics of plain song melodic cadences (the tenor) and the other parts which harmonise with it in good counterpoint. That’s renaissance and baroque theory. Which is to say - the defining feature of Western tonality, the V I cadence (and the ii V I, jazzers) actually derives from harmonising plainchant.

There would be no Western Music in its present form for Schoenberg to be revolutionise.

Furthermore, Schoenberg’s concept of the tone row is arguably analogous to the concept of cantus firmus/tenor in trad counterpoint, which is to say - a plainchant.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it sonny Jim.

It was no coincidence that Thomas Mann used Schoenberg in "Doctor Faustus" as the model for the character of Adrian Leverkuhn, a composer who contracted syphilis so he could attain the state of madness needed to create the 12-tone row method of composition. The composer was used as a symbol of the threat of the Nazi party.
Schoenberg, a Jew, had fled Germany to emigrate to the US, and wrote a letter to Mann demanding that he include a preface statement that he had nothing to do with the Leverkuhn character, which Mann included in all further editions of his book.

Schoenberg's 12-tone row method of composition succeeded....... in emptying out concert halls all over the US, according to its leading proponent in the US, Gunther Schuller, in an essay written in the early 1960s. His character in Mann's novel had sold his soul to the devil for the 12-tone row system- no religious music for this boy...

[Christian Miller]

I have to say I tend to side with Arnie here, it seems a bit cheap to caricature someone in that way. I doubt the disclaimer had the intended effect though lol

all the cool kids like the free tonal period anyway. A girl I fancied liked it anyway… she was a composition student. So that seemed cool to me.

But I was never cool and I quite like this

i remember attending a masterclass with Pierre Boulez teaching some conducting students to conduct this piece. He came across as funny and warm.

I remember being surprised he was doing this piece - he didn’t think much of Schoenberg’s serial works, being one of them cool kids.

Given serialism’s gradual slide out of favour in the concert, I actually reckon the largest group of people who actually like and check out twelve tone music today are jazz musicians. I suppose we can sympathise with the no audience thing lol.

Adorno is spinning in his grave hahaha

[James Haze]

Some of you guys seem CONFUSED about what SOUL music is. It's not the kind of music that artists like Kirk Franklin make.

If you think back to the 1890s and early 1900s, you'll find that all African American music has similar roots in the blues, as does jazz and essentially ALL American music. Yet all of the different genres of African American music have long since branched off into their own unique genres. SOUL music is most closely related to R&B music. That is why you will see many soul artists listed as R&B/soul or R&B/neo soul. Marvin Gaye was a hugely popular soul artist, and one of his most popular hits is titled "Sexual Healing." You guessed it, the song is about having sex, and enjoying it very much. It's a song about how having sex with someone you care about can actually help to heal your soul.

If you listen to most popular soul and neo soul artists like, D'Angelo, Maxwell, Erykah Badu, Sade, and Luther Vandross you will hear some great music, and lyrics about SEX/making love, romantic relationships, brotherly love, and social issues. Those are things that everyone can relate too.

When I referred to "putting soul into your playing" I was ONLY referring to that feeling, expressiveness, and emotional energy that soul and R&B artists are famous for being able to convey in their music, nothing else.

I had been listening to some young jazz guitar players at the time I wrote my OP. They had chops for sure, but their playing was lacking something else very important, IMO.

[James Haze]

This thread started out pretty good, with interesting input form quite a few.

As an observer, it started going off the rails when soul was connected to religion and older religious music. Unfortunately, that opened the door to get way too deep into our individual religious views.

I belong to two other forums that have a solid stance against anything political and religious. There are moderators who keep an eye on things and when either of those two topics surface, they wipe out the posts. Sometimes these moderators get a little too picky but that’s better than expecting everyone to read topics they either don’t care about or they get angrily responsive over.

How about we do a better job of self policing?

FWIW

Tom

Okay, but I have seen the moderators on one of those forums allow blatant religious posts, then when someone posted something anti-religion it got deleted and that person banned. That's shady and hypocritical. Also saw that if one of their financially supporting members complained about something a non supporting member said, they always sided with the supporting member, no matter who was really in the wrong. Again, shady.

Actually a forum that won't allow people to discuss religion or politics is actually offensive, IMO. I'm a huge proponent of the Constitutional and American value of freedom of speech. Not allowing conversations about certain topics is CENSORSHIP, something I find very offensive, except for personal attacks on people, hate speech, or inciting violence; things that hurt people.

I find it quite offensive and un-American that some "big brother" unseen entity can come along and decide for people what they can and can't talk about. What is this, the old USSR, Communist China or North Korea, or is this America? As long as people keep the Convo's respectful.

I could understand them maybe saying only in this general discussion thread are non music related subjects allowed, because this is a forum for musicians about music related topics.

However, a forum that infringes upon people's right to freedom of speech is offensive, and a reason for me to NOT want to support that.

People have been discussing it here and all of the posts have been perfectly respectable, just people posting their opinions.

I am not a religious person at all, but if people want to talk about that, it's fine with me, just as long as I can freely and respectfully post my opinions from a non religious point of view.

[jameslovestal]

Okay, but I have seen the moderators on one of those forums allow blatant religious posts, then when someone posted something anti-religion it got deleted and that person banned. That's shady and hypocritical. Also saw that if one of their financially supporting members complained about something a non supporting member said, they always sided with the supporting member, no matter who was really in the wrong. Again, shady.

Actually a forum that won't allow people to discuss religion or politics is actually offensive, IMO. I'm a huge proponent of the Constitutional and American value of freedom of speech. Not allowing conversations about certain topics is CENSORSHIP, something I find very offensive, except for personal attacks on people, hate speech, or inciting violence; things that hurt people.

I find it quite offensive and un-American that some "big brother" unseen entity can come along and decide for people what they can and can't talk about. What is this, the old USSR, Communist China or North Korea, or is this America? As long as people keep the Convo's respectful.

I could understand them maybe saying only in this general discussion thread are non music related subjects allowed, because this is a forum for musicians about music related topics.

However, a forum that infringes upon people's right to freedom of speech is offensive, and a reason for me to NOT want to support that.

People have been discussing it here and all of the posts have been perfectly respectable, just people posting their opinions.

I am not a religious person at all, but if people want to talk about that, it's fine with me, just as long as I can freely and respectfully post my opinions from a non religious point of view.

It would be a lot worst if the US government had control over privately owned and operated chat rooms. That would be big brother on steroids. "they" (Chat room owners), should have the freedom to have the type of chat room they believe works best for them.

While I would like open forums, I don't find those that aren't offensive. I just don't participate in them.

[sgcim]

Some of you guys seem CONFUSED about what SOUL music is. It's not the kind of music that artists like Kirk Franklin make.

If you think back to the 1890s and early 1900s, you'll find that all African American music has similar roots in the blues, as does jazz and essentially ALL American music. Yet all of the different genres of African American music have long since branched off into their own unique genres. SOUL music is most closely related to R&B music. That is why you will see many soul artists listed as R&B/soul or R&B/neo soul. Marvin Gaye was a hugely popular soul artist, and one of his most popular hits is titled "Sexual Healing." You guessed it, the song is about having sex, and enjoying it very much. It's a song about how having sex with someone you care about can actually help to heal your soul.

If you listen to most popular soul and neo soul artists like, D'Angelo, Maxwell, Erykah Badu, Sade, and Luther Vandross you will hear some great music, and lyrics about SEX/making love, romantic relationships, brotherly love, and social issues. Those are things that everyone can relate too.

When I referred to "putting soul into your playing" I was ONLY referring to that feeling, expressiveness, and emotional energy that soul and R&B artists are famous for being able to convey in their music, nothing else.

I had been listening to some young jazz guitar players at the time I wrote my OP. They had chops for sure, but their playing was lacking something else very important, IMO.

All those artists got their soul from the church when thy were kids.When I taught music in an inner city HS, the only kids that could play got their musicality from the church. Take the church away from them, and all they got is hip-hop.
Real R&B is just secular church music.

[TAA]

#308

I agree with your commentary.

Hard to disagree. Maybe I’m to stringent on the religious of aspects of this overall subject.

But…above all else, I try to focus on the jazz guitar aspects of this.

Tom

[James Haze]

It would be a lot worst if the US government had control over privately owned and operated chat rooms. That would be big brother on steroids. "they" (Chat room owners), should have the freedom to have the type of chat room they believe works best for them.

While I would like open forums, I don't find those that aren't offensive. I just don't participate in them.

People love to use that "private entity" excuse. IMO, it's still offensive even when a private company does it, because it still goes against the American value of freedom of speech.

I'm an artist, I'm all about freedom of speech and freedom of expression.

We are not only musicians, we are, hopefully, we'll rounded individuals with lots of viewpoints and interests. IF you don't want to participate in religious discussions, then you don't have to, but that doesn't mean the people who want to talk about that stuff should be precluded from doing it.

Censoeship is censorship. You guys miss the point when you say it's okay if some small privately-owned entity does it. What then if huge Corporations started doing it too? What if Google started redacting all religious content from their platforms and servers? What if Chat Gpt and other AI models refused to discuss any religious subject matter? Then, what if all the social media platforms banned religious discussions and posts? What if search engines also started refusing to answer quarries about religion? You see? Then you're still approaching some kind of defacto ban on religion and infringement on our right to freedom of speech, even though "the government" didn't do it.

Let me also point out to you that your previous post could get you banned on the forums in question, just because you mentioned "the US Government." That would be "discussing politics" on their opinion. That's utterly ridiculous.b

[sgcim]

Some of you guys seem CONFUSED about what SOUL music is. It's not the kind of music that artists like Kirk Franklin make.

If you think back to the 1890s and early 1900s, you'll find that all African American music has similar roots in the blues, as does jazz and essentially ALL American music. Yet all of the different genres of African American music have long since branched off into their own unique genres. SOUL music is most closely related to R&B music. That is why you will see many soul artists listed as R&B/soul or R&B/neo soul. Marvin Gaye was a hugely popular soul artist, and one of his most popular hits is titled "Sexual Healing." You guessed it, the song is about having sex, and enjoying it very much. It's a song about how having sex with someone you care about can actually help to heal your soul.

If you listen to most popular soul and neo soul artists like, D'Angelo, Maxwell, Erykah Badu, Sade, and Luther Vandross you will hear some great music, and lyrics about SEX/making love, romantic relationships, brotherly love, and social issues. Those are things that everyone can relate too.

When I referred to "putting soul into your playing" I was ONLY referring to that feeling, expressiveness, and emotional energy that soul and R&B artists are famous for being able to convey in their music, nothing else.

I had been listening to some young jazz guitar players at the time I wrote my OP. They had chops for sure, but their playing was lacking something else very important, IMO.

That was the same criticism that the British jazz guitarist Terry Smith had about the younger jazz guitarists coming out of college.They got the chops, they know all the tunes and changes, but they GOT NO SOUL!

[AKA]

Jazz guitarist Ed Cherry just posted this at his FaceBook page noting that the guitarist, Faton Macula, is playing with lots of soul. Is this the type of “soul” to which you’re referring?

Some of you guys seem CONFUSED about what SOUL music is. It's not the kind of music that artists like Kirk Franklin make.

If you think back to the 1890s and early 1900s, you'll find that all African American music has similar roots in the blues, as does jazz and essentially ALL American music. Yet all of the different genres of African American music have long since branched off into their own unique genres. SOUL music is most closely related to R&B music. That is why you will see many soul artists listed as R&B/soul or R&B/neo soul. Marvin Gaye was a hugely popular soul artist, and one of his most popular hits is titled "Sexual Healing." You guessed it, the song is about having sex, and enjoying it very much. It's a song about how having sex with someone you care about can actually help to heal your soul.

If you listen to most popular soul and neo soul artists like, D'Angelo, Maxwell, Erykah Badu, Sade, and Luther Vandross you will hear some great music, and lyrics about SEX/making love, romantic relationships, brotherly love, and social issues. Those are things that everyone can relate too.

When I referred to "putting soul into your playing" I was ONLY referring to that feeling, expressiveness, and emotional energy that soul and R&B artists are famous for being able to convey in their music, nothing else.

I had been listening to some young jazz guitar players at the time I wrote my OP. They had chops for sure, but their playing was lacking something else very important, IMO.

[James Haze]

Jazz guitarist Ed Cherry just posted this at his FaceBook page noting that the guitarist, Faton Macula, is playing with lots of soul. Is this the type of “soul” to which you’re referring?

Okay, since you asked, I think he is obviously a really talented player. I would not say that he has no soul. I think he's probably a fantastic player.

Personally, since you asked, I would make a few suggestions though. I would have liked to hear a touch more ambience in his tone on a solo guitar piece like that, just to enhance his tone with a bit more of a 3D quality.

Also, a big part of having soul in one's playing is knowing when to leave space, to let the music "breath" naturally. One of my earliest guitar teachers, I took a some lessons with, who happened to be African American, used to hammer on that point when I was a beginner. That leaving space in the right spots is important. It really helps to make your playing sound and feel more organic.
He actually did good with that except for in a few spots he rushed the tempo. That ruins the soulful feeling, because rhythm and a keen sense of time are so important to convey a soulful, beautiful, natural feeling. Leave some space in the right places, and let the audience appreciate and digest what you just played before hitting them with your next blazing jazz line.

There is a reason that more than 90% of songs are in 4/4, because it's a nice even number thats easy to tap your foot to. Even though your playing solo guitar the audience should still be able to tap their foot to the tempo of what you're playing.

If you ever watched American Bandstand reruns as a kid or Soul Train , when the kids rated a record, the number one comment they would say when asked why they liked a certain record is, " I really liked the beat." So rhythm and keeping things in a tempo that makes people want to bob their heads or tap their foot to it is obviously really important in music. Don't rush it, let it breath and flow naturally, and play with a good even natural tempo.

You ever see Joe Pass playing solo guitar and tapping his foot like crazy the whole time? He's making sure he keeps everything in perfect time. That's why he was tapping his foot while playing solo guitar.

Other than that, I thought he was really good.

Did you notice he threw in a couple of George Benson'esque licks in there? Obviously GB is a one of Faton's big influences.

[lawson-stone]

Okay, but I have seen the moderators on one of those forums allow blatant religious posts, then when someone posted something anti-religion it got deleted and that person banned. That's shady and hypocritical. Also saw that if one of their financially supporting members complained about something a non supporting member said, they always sided with the supporting member, no matter who was really in the wrong. Again, shady.

Actually a forum that won't allow people to discuss religion or politics is actually offensive, IMO. I'm a huge proponent of the Constitutional and American value of freedom of speech. Not allowing conversations about certain topics is CENSORSHIP, something I find very offensive, except for personal attacks on people, hate speech, or inciting violence; things that hurt people.

I find it quite offensive and un-American that some "big brother" unseen entity can come along and decide for people what they can and can't talk about. What is this, the old USSR, Communist China or North Korea, or is this America? As long as people keep the Convo's respectful.

I could understand them maybe saying only in this general discussion thread are non music related subjects allowed, because this is a forum for musicians about music related topics.

However, a forum that infringes upon people's right to freedom of speech is offensive, and a reason for me to NOT want to support that.

People have been discussing it here and all of the posts have been perfectly respectable, just people posting their opinions.

I am not a religious person at all, but if people want to talk about that, it's fine with me, just as long as I can freely and respectfully post my opinions from a non religious point of view.

But this is not a US forum. I think the server is in Belgium and managed by European folks of several nationalities. Americans should not presume that their political values and opinions are normative for international forums like this, particularly those not operated by US based entities.

[docsteve]

Don't worry, freedom of speech is a thing in Europe, too. It hasn't quite morphed yet into a right-wing fighting term, though.

(edit: I don't want to insinuate in any way that Freedom of Speech is a right-wing oncept, or that James Haze is a right-winger.)

[GordonM]

But this is not a US forum. I think the server is in Belgium and managed by European folks of several nationalities. Americans should not presume that their political values and opinions are normative for international forums like this, particularly those not operated by US based entities.

Exactly! There is certainly a place for discussions on American values/opinions in other more general forums. For me, one of the most likeable features of this forum is that it is almost completely focussed on Jazz Guitar without an excess of waffle on unrelated topics.

[James Haze]

Exactly! There is certainly a place for discussions on American values/opinions in other more general forums. For me, one of the most likeable features of this forum is that it is almost completely focussed on Jazz Guitar without an excess of waffle on unrelated topics.

Can someone check the rule book and see if we can talk about waffles on the forum?

[AllanAllen]

I dunno, it's pretty offensive to me to see all this political B.S. on a jazz guitar forum. I'd much prefer a 20 page thread on waffles.

[James Haze]

Don't worry, freedom of speech is a thing in Europe, too. It hasn't quite morphed yet into a right-wing fighting term, though.

Glad to hear that.

(edit: I don't want to insinuate in any way that Freedom of Speech is a right-wing oncept, or that James Haze is a right-winger.)

No, not that, ever. I'm about as liberal as they come baby. I believe in freedom of choice big time, and that's why I'm so in favor of freedom of speech, even on Internet forums. Discussing issues out in the open is what brings enlightenment, and can bring understanding and bridge gaps between peoples.

[jameslovestal]

People love to use that "private entity" excuse. IMO, it's still offensive even when a private company does it, because it still goes against the American value of freedom of speech.

I'm an artist, I'm all about freedom of speech and freedom of expression.

We are not only musicians, we are, hopefully, we'll rounded individuals with lots of viewpoints and interests. IF you don't want to participate in religious discussions, then you don't have to, but that doesn't mean the people who want to talk about that stuff should be precluded from doing it.

Censoeship is censorship. You guys miss the point when you say it's okay if some small privately-owned entity does it. What then if huge Corporations started doing it too? What if Google started redacting all religious content from their platforms and servers? What if Chat Gpt and other AI models refused to discuss any religious subject matter? Then, what if all the social media platforms banned religious discussions and posts? What if search engines also started refusing to answer quarries about religion? You see? Then you're still approaching some kind of defacto ban on religion and infringement on our right to freedom of speech, even though "the government" didn't do it.

Let me also point out to you that your previous post could get you banned on the forums in question, just because you mentioned "the US Government." That would be "discussing politics" on their opinion. That's utterly ridiculous.b

There is a major difference between private entity 'censorship' and government-imposed censorship. One being the one I noted: one can go to a different private entity. One can NOT go to a different government! A point you continue to miss, and counters all your examples of poor behavior by a social media private entity: ALL these private entities would have to follow the same model and that is highly unlikely in a free marketplace with little government oversight.

Again, I agree with you with regards to what would be ridiculous or lame behavior by a private entity (such as getting banned for discussing religion or politics). The only difference in our POV is that it appears you do wish for a government imposed social-media policing of private entities, and I believe such a solution would restrict yet more freedoms.

I also don't find what these private entity social media platforms do, offensive. Guess I'm just built differently that way.

As for this site: I believe the mod (Dirk?), does a great job using a light touch.

[TAA]

One of my hobbies is competitive firearm shooting. We have an interesting saying….There are no losers. You are either a winner or a learner”. I’m usually a learner.

Over on two other forums I referred to COVID as The China Gift and I was chastised for it. I was accused of being too “political” and I shouldn’t go there. I learned…and no longer visit those forums very much anymore.

And on this forum I often see the sell price of items for sale in European monetary units. And just recently in this thread, I learned that this forum originates in Belgium. There must be a lot more interest in jazz guitar in Europe, than I was aware of. Quite interesting!

Tom

[Litterick]

Can someone check the rule book and see if we can talk about waffles on the forum?

Of course: waffles are Belgian.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Of course: waffles are Belgian.

I wonder how they feel about "chicken and waffles"