"Everything Is Hard On Guitar"--Matteo Mancuso

[James W]

At the end of the day, Allan was not a virtuoso
while Matteo and Guthrie. Might seem an odd thing to say, but Allan could only do Allan, his voice. He wasn’t about to bust out some chicken picking or George Benson smooth jazz chops on a dime like Guthrie could. It wasn’t a matter of choice for him. It’s a different thing.

Yes, it strikes me as a very odd thing to say. You seem to think virtuosity = ability to pastiche at a high level, which I disagree with. And you don't think it was a conscious choice on Allan's behalf to pursue the kind of technique and phrasing that he did? Why?

Not that I think Guthrie is like Allan. (I won't wax lyrical by comparing them). But I definitely think Allan was a virtuoso and awesome all-round improviser, composer and artist.

[Christian Miller]

Yes, it strikes me as a very odd thing to say. You seem to think virtuosity = ability to pastiche at a high level, which I disagree with. And you don't think it was a conscious choice on Allan's behalf to pursue the kind of technique and phrasing that he did? Why?

Not that I think Guthrie is like Allan. (I won't wax lyrical by comparing them). But I definitely think Allan was a virtuoso and awesome all-round improviser, composer and artist.

Well the definition of virtuosity depends on who you ask, but the virtuoso to me evokes someone who is an executant in the classical sense - can play Lizst, Beethoven, Chopin on piano for example. To me Matteo is this on electric guitar, the jazz guitar canon is very much under his fingers, if you like. Django, Pat, Allan, Wes, you name it.

However the kind of instrumental skill someone like Allan exhibits in the jazz world doesn’t really have an equivalent in the modern classical world. Improvisation and technique are closely intertwined. Look closely into Allan and you see things that clearly emerge from the physical way he played guitar which was extremely idiosyncratic - even compared to those inspired by him, like all modern legato shred players. I do think Allan found a way of playing guitar that would get him the feeling he wanted (Trane, sheets of sound) but a lot of the patterns he plays are what worked for his technique.

The other thing is that had he been a better picker like Tal Farlow or someone he might never have ended up going his way. It may be that he wasn’t that motivated to get his picking together because he preferred a hornlike sound (he like Jimmy Raney for instance) so it’s a bit chicken and egg. But the upshot is he chose not to that and instead invented a new approach that was pretty much unique at the time.

Now we have guitarists who can do ‘everything’ but a unique voice is as much a product of limitation as capability. Obviously most don’t think of Allan in that light because - we all wish we could play that fluently - but look
a bit closer and I think you can see his approach fits into this category.

[GuyBoden]

Obviously most don’t think of Allan in that light because - we all wish we could play that fluently - but look
a bit closer and I think you can see his approach fits into this category.

I've heard Tom Quayle admit that he uses legato because he can't pick very well. I can't remember Allan Holdsworth admitting to the same.

To me, Allan Holdsworth was all about his music, the incredible guitar technique came with trying to create his music.

If you watch his early 1970's Soft Machine prog rock videos, you see him picking a lot more than his later playing style, but Yes, still lots of legato.

[James W]

Well the definition of virtuosity depends on who you ask, but the virtuoso to me evokes someone who is an executant in the classical sense - can play Lizst, Beethoven, Chopin on piano for example. To me Matteo is this on electric guitar, the jazz guitar canon is very much under his fingers, if you like. Django, Pat, Allan, Wes, you name it.

However the kind of instrumental skill someone like Allan exhibits in the jazz world doesn’t really have an equivalent in the modern classical world. Improvisation and technique are closely intertwined. Look closely into Allan and you see things that clearly emerge from the physical way he played guitar which was extremely idiosyncratic - even compared to those inspired by him, like all modern legato shred players. I do think Allan found a way of playing guitar that would get him the feeling he wanted (Trane, sheets of sound) but a lot of the patterns he plays are what worked for his technique.

The other thing is that had he been a better picker like Tal Farlow or someone he might never have ended up going his way. It may be that he wasn’t that motivated to get his picking together because he preferred a hornlike sound (he like Jimmy Raney for instance) so it’s a bit chicken and egg. But the upshot is he chose not to that and instead invented a new approach that was pretty much unique at the time.

Now we have guitarists who can do ‘everything’ but a unique voice is as much a product of limitation as capability. Obviously most don’t think of Allan in that light because - we all wish we could play that fluently - but look
a bit closer and I think you can see his approach fits into this category.

Well, not much to disagree with here. Idiosyncrasy is often a feature of jazz greats, especially with an instrument like the electric guitar which doesn't have like a classical repertoire as a means of acquiring technique. And Allan was definitely one the most idiosyncratic players to pick up the instrument (one aspect of which, eschewing pull-offs, still blows my mind). However, I think the criteria for virtuosity for jazz is different to that for classical music, namely that it's obviously an improvisational art form rather than one where performers are expected to have a note-for-note canon under their fingers which people will pay to hear. I recall reading that Allan did learn a Charlie Christian solo, though. Much of what you say about Allan applies to someone like John McLaughlin whose picking technique would appear to be quite restrictive, but you would never guess that from listening. It's about playing to your strengths isn't it? The idea of having (or placing) restrictions as part of a creative act seems to crop up a lot in music, and not just music.

[GuyBoden]

Well, not much to disagree with here. Idiosyncrasy is often a feature of jazz greats, especially with an instrument like the electric guitar which doesn't have like a classical repertoire as a means of acquiring technique. And Allan was definitely one the most idiosyncratic players to pick up the instrument (one aspect of which, eschewing pull-offs, still blows my mind). However, I think the criteria for virtuosity for jazz is different to that for classical music, namely that it's obviously an improvisational art form rather than one where performers are expected to have a note-for-note canon under their fingers which people will pay to hear. I recall reading that Allan did learn a Charlie Christian solo, though. Much of what you say about Allan applies to someone like John McLaughlin whose picking technique would appear to be quite restrictive, but you would never guess that from listening. It's about playing to your strengths isn't it? The idea of having (or placing) restrictions as part of a creative act seems to crop up a lot in music, and not just music.

I think that Christian was inferring that Allan Holdsworth's incredible legato technique was "a product of limitation", like Tom Quayle has admitted many times about his own legato technique. But, I disagree and think that Allan Holdsworth's legato technique was a product of the music he was trying to create.

[Christian Miller]

I've heard Tom Quayle admit that he uses legato because he can't pick very well. I can't remember Allan Holdsworth admitting to the same.

To me, Allan Holdsworth was all about his music, the incredible guitar technique came with trying to create his music.

If you watch his early 1970's Soft Machine prog rock videos, you see him picking a lot more than his later playing style, but Yes, still lots of legato.

Mind you, Tom demonstrated how ‘bad’ his picking is in an interview and I have to say I would like to be able to pick that badly

[Christian Miller]

I think that Christian was inferring that Allan Holdsworth's incredible legato technique was "a product of limitation", like Tom Quayle has admitted many times about own legato technique. But, I disagree and think that Allan Holdsworth's legato technique was a product of the music he was trying to create.

im not sure the two things are in opposition. you know you can sit down with Allan’s stuff and say ‘this comes from the guitar.’

I’ll give a specific example, his idiosyncratic way of fingering scales, where you have the unison between the G and B strings which just comes out of the quirks of standard tuning.

A lot of alllan’s lines use this while a lot of modern players would tune to P4s, or adjust their fingering to conventional 3nps fingerings and to facilitate more obvious textbook scales and arpeggios.

I think Allan definitely say it as feature, not a bug, which suggests a higher level of creativity to me actually. a good and simple example is that unision pentatonic line from Fred which relies on that ‘false fingering’ overlap. So Allan heard that when playing that pattern and probably thought as a musician and not just a technician ‘oh that sounds interesting’ and then used it.

This device it’s such a feature of his lines. You can hear it on city nights, the still of the night, so many classic solos. Very idiosyncratic - how many of his imitators have used this like him?

You take what others reject and make it part of your art. That takes real creativity in my book.

Another example is this hip outside line he plays on ‘16 men of tain’ (swings like the clappers) where he plays a sort of legato cell on one string, transposes up one fret and a string each time and repeats. He just keeps going, so it starts off being a tritone thing but then when he hits the B string he just does the same fingering pattern so you get a fourth. Again a lot of people would reject that as ‘theoretically wrong’ but of course it sounds great. I tend to do that - Try and make it for in with some symmetrical scale something, tidy it up.

Compared to todays fusion players, It’s more the sort of thing I would imagine EVH or someone doing actually, it comes from the layout of the guitar and an experimental, open spirit.

There’s a real lesson there.

which also suggests to me that Allan wasn’t quite the cerebral mega brain he can be portrayed as and while that side was fully in place, his music making was often highly intuitive, happy to embrace chaos as well as order. He clearly felt his music strongly (I find it odd when people say he was a mere technician, I think that says more about their hang ups honestly) And things like this make him sound so distinctive when compared to so many legato shredders who fly up and down their textbook patterns.

[GuyBoden]

Allan Holdsworth quote:

"I guess consciously since I’ve started on the instrument I’ve been trying to get the guitar to sound more like I was blowing it than plucking it"


Allan Holdsworth's New Horizons
Downbeat, November 1985
Bill Millkowski
Untitled Document

[GuyBoden]

Back to Matteo Mancuso, he seems to be using a Picado picking technique a lot. Maybe, this has been mentioned before, but it's new to me.

Picado picking is this.

[CliffR]

Another example is this hip outside line he plays on ‘16 men of tain’ (swings like the clappers) where he plays a sort of legato cell on one string, transposes up one fret and a string each time and repeats. He just keeps going, so it starts off being a tritone thing but then when he hits the B string he just does the same fingering pattern so you get a fourth. Again a lot of people would reject that as ‘theoretically wrong’ but of course it sounds great. I tend to do that - Try and make it for in with some symmetrical scale something, tidy it up.

Compared to todays fusion players, It’s more the sort of thing I would imagine EVH or someone doing actually, it comes from the layout of the guitar and an experimental, open spirit.

I read the first paragraph and was immediately reminded of EVH, so it's nice to see you made the connection too. Many years ago I read an interview with Eddie where he said Allan was his hero.

[GuyBoden]

I read the first paragraph and was immediately reminded of EVH, so it's nice to see you made the connection too. Many years ago I read an interview with Eddie where he said Allan was his hero.

But, EVH did get Holdsworth a record deal.

[CliffR]

Did he? I didn't know that.

[James W]

I think that Christian was inferring that Allan Holdsworth's incredible legato technique was "a product of limitation", like Tom Quayle has admitted many times about his own legato technique. But, I disagree and think that Allan Holdsworth's legato technique was a product of the music he was trying to create.

Yes, sorry, Christian said originally that it wasn't a choice for Allan to play the way he did but then went on to say 'But the upshot is he chose not' (I added the bold font) which I took to mean he ceded the point.
Yes, I think it definitely was a choice on Allan's behalf to play the way he did; with this mind I'm not sure why I started going on about playing to your strengths, or about restrictions - perhaps because I was trying to distinguish why people like Holdsworth or McLaughlin were jazz virtuosi even though they are or were not like Guthrie or Matteo.

[AllanAllen]

The first 30 seconds of OP video sounded like a modern country anthem intro so I turned it off. This is still a jazz forum right? Isn't Matteo one of the "sped up instagram" players?

[GuyBoden]

The first 30 seconds of OP video sounded like a modern country anthem intro so I turned it off. This is still a jazz forum right? Isn't Matteo one of the "sped up instagram" players?

He's doing his own thing. One of the most refreshing young players around

[frabarmus]

Now we have guitarists who can do ‘everything’ but a unique voice is as much a product of limitation as capability.

I agree. I also remember John Scofield admitting that his picking technique is bad and, yet, he's one of the most interesting improvisers in Jazz, I think, and although I admire the precise, fast picking technique of John McLaughlin and Al Di Meola, I prefer the less percussive, more horn-like fluidity of hammer on's and pull off's.

Still, I've always had a tendency to consider Allan (technically) a virtuoso as he could also play lightning-fast improvised lines for as long as he wished to, but, for me, that's not the point as he could do it without ever being boring, repetitive or banal... he had like a continuous stream of deep,meaningful, inspired musical discourse that gave (me, at least) sustained bliss (whether he played fast or slow, and play slow he also did, he was one of the most soulful players I've ever heard), and that's what I look for in music...

[Christian Miller]

Yes, sorry, Christian said originally that it wasn't a choice for Allan to play the way he did but then went on to say 'But the upshot is he chose not' (I added the bold font) which I took to mean he ceded the point.
Yes, I think it definitely was a choice on Allan's behalf to play the way he did; with this mind I'm not sure why I started going on about playing to your strengths, or about restrictions - perhaps because I was trying to distinguish why people like Holdsworth or McLaughlin were jazz virtuosi even though they are or were not like Guthrie or Matteo.

Well the thing about jazz is that your voice and identity is kind of the most important thing. The elders tell you off if you sound too much like other players, often players they had direct contact with before they were added to the Terribly Important Jazz Canon. You do often have to play complicated music but the main object is to find your own sound. I’m not sure this is something you can do without being in the real world playing community.

I don’t mean to be dismissive of Guthrie - I think he does have a clear musical identity, but rather like Seinfeld he’s been imitated a lot. It is interesting that some players are more imitated than others, but that’s another thread.

Choice is a funny thing, perhaps ultimately I don’t believe in free will that much. I think conscious choices are what you consider when you have too much time on your hands. Theres a lot to be said for your chops evolving on the gig.

You can’t pick as well as the other guy in town, so you find another way to do it etc. you have to play Donna Lee with a horn player, you find a way to do it. Frank Zappa wants you to play these ridiculous charts etc.

freedom of choice can lead to option paralysis - my number one problem when I’m not doing enough gigs. I think it’s overrated. I quite like rabbit holes though, but I think that’s to do with deeper forces, the conscious mind doesn’t have much to do with it.

I think vai had an interesting clinic about ‘playing to your strengths’ - he knows what he is. No one would hire him to do what Lukather or Larry does. But he can play very difficult music and finds it interesting to do so and he is an utterly distinctive player.

EDIT: I like what Julian Lage said in his interview with Beato. There’s an inevitability about finding your voices and improvisation. You may not even like what comes out of the process, that’s the kicker. Allan was rather negative about his playing.

[Christian Miller]

I agree. I also remember John Scofield admitting that his picking technique is bad and, yet, he's one of the most interesting improvisers in Jazz, I think, and although I admire the precise, fast picking technique of John McLaughlin and Al Di Meola, I prefer the less percussive, more horn-like fluidity of hammer on's and pull off's.

Still, I've always had a tendency to consider Allan (technically) a virtuoso as he could also play lightning-fast improvised lines for as long as he wished to, but, for me, that's not the point as he could do it without ever being boring, repetitive or banal... he had like a continuous stream of deep,meaningful, inspired musical discourse that gave (me, at least) sustained bliss (whether he played fast or slow, and play slow he also did, he was one of the most soulful players I've ever heard), and that's what I look for in music...

Yes - Soul.

I think guitarists don’t have a relationship with a written canon in the same way as pianists, for example, do*, so things often become a debate about how fast people play which seems anti-musical to me.

Among the technically minded shred community it can become like top trumps - players are evaluated against a tick list, and dismissed for what they can’t do rather than what they can do. I regret to say I used to say stupid stuff like that…. I had friends who would say things like ‘oh player x could play everythig player y plays’

Can you imagine Cellists going on like that? Say what you like about the Western Canon and the inability to improvise but at least it keeps people focussed on the music. Technique is a means to giving effortless voice to music as a starting point. When you improvise this is much harder to anchor - which is why writing is so important imo. And the greats of the classical tradition do find a way to speak with their own voice through the repertoire, that’s the fascinating thing.

Players are great musicians or they are not, that is all, I guess.

Anyway as Keith Tippett used to say ‘careful young jazzers, jazz is becoming a repertoire music.’ It’s inevitable and it’s no one’s fault.

*this may no longer be true in the electric guitar community.

[DawgBone]

The first 30 seconds of OP video sounded like a modern country anthem intro so I turned it off. This is still a jazz forum right? Isn't Matteo one of the "sped up instagram" players?

Well, it's supposed to be jazz "fusion".

It comes across like a 90's era MTV hard rock video. Dude just needed his top hat, leather pants, and a les paul to flesh out the video. Drummer needs some cymbals set way up in the air....

His playing in the vid is heavily pentatonic driven. I don't see what's remarkable about it besides him being a guitar technician. It reminds me a lot of Scott Henderson except Scott has a tone a little less driven and more SRV like. I find both of them similarly boring TBH. Just give me Eric Gales or SRV.

I also don't get how Holdsworth is somehow not a virtuoso but somehow this guy is? That's bullshit.

[James W]

Well the thing about jazz is that your voice and identity is kind of the most important thing. The elders tell you off if you sound too much like other players, often players they had direct contact with before they were added to the Terribly Important Jazz Canon. You do often have to play complicated music but the main object is to find your own sound. I’m not sure this is something you can do without being in the real world playing community.

Yes, ok. Indeed, I agree.

Choice is a funny thing, perhaps ultimately I don’t believe in free will that much. I think conscious choices are what you consider when you have too much time on your hands. Theres a lot to be said for your chops evolving on the gig.

Really? I find these a peculiar few sentences. Holdsworth chose to play the way he did evidently because he had a conception of how he wanted his playing to sound. And he pursued it. I for one do not believe in having too much time on one's hand. Every great player has spent time in the woodshed and has probably gone through stages where their playing isn't all that pretty, and thus probably wouldn't want to expose that to the wider community. I wouldn't want to wash my dirty linen in public (this expression being used, I recall, by Liszt when he had a piano student come to him without a fully formed technique - Liszt at that point preferred to focus on interpretation)... But if that's your experience, I'm not one to impugn it.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

In the weeds and playing small ball, guys.

Firstly:
1. Virtuosity is different in the classical world than it is in jazz. Most jazzers - on any instrument - can't play like the classical virtuosos. (and vice versa)
2. "The guitar" is a classical guitar. Every other type needs an acronym/classifier.
3. Electric guitar is different from acoustic guitars.

Now that we have that out of the way:
1. Holdsworth is on record saying that he wanted to play the instrument in a way that sounded like a sax. He wasn't trying to sound like Eddie Lang, Charlie Christian, Django, Tal Farlow, or Joe Pass.
2. He played what he wanted (like most non-classical musical artists)
3. He could solo masterfully fast while using mind-blowing phraseology that no one could touch (review samples above) - or at least without tapping, and nobody did that anyway although Van Halen claimed Holdsworth as his inspiration for his simpler lines delivered via tapping.

In the end, one can either play the music that Holdsworth played on the guitar or they can't. Virtuosity is about playing at the highest level of human capability on one's instrument, and Allan did just that - in his unique way. And unique is acceptable in non-classical music.

[Christian Miller]

Yes, ok. Indeed, I agree.





Really? I find these a peculiar few sentences. Holdsworth chose to play the way he did evidently because he had a conception of how he wanted his playing to sound. And he pursued it.

Of course; but it’s not like he withdrew into splendid isolation until he developed his technique. You can hear him develop on record from the earliest days. These guys were always playing gigs.

I for one do not believe in having too much time on one's hand. Every great player has spent time in the woodshed and has probably gone through stages where their playing isn't all that pretty, and thus probably wouldn't want to expose that to the wider community. I wouldn't want to wash my dirty linen in public (this expression being used, I recall, by Liszt when he had a piano student come to him without a fully formed technique - Liszt at that point preferred to focus on interpretation)... But if that's your experience, I'm not one to impugn it.

I don’t see how that contradicts what I’ve said at all. In fact I said something very similar above. But neither would I expect a classical piano student to start day one with, well, lizst … and only perform when that was mastered. You play things that are within your ability.

You need the chops to play the gig. But it actually really helps to have a gig to develop those chops. The date drives a lot of positive things. It helps if the music is just slightly harder than the comfort zone, but not so hard that it’s beyond you - that’s when the good work happens. Finding that zone of proximal development is one of the most important things for a learner. Teachers and mentors can help.

You know you can follow Allan’s development from the very early days on recordings.

And every so often you will get something that is utterly beyond you. And you will fail sometimes because of it. Happened to me, and I expect to happen in the future. I don’t always have perfect information to make the right decisions.

you know there are live recordings of Allan playing badly too… he was a human being. You can’t avoid vulnerability…. And YouTube puts out everything for everyone to see, every bad night. But even in the pre internet days there were things like Birds recording of lover man.

Especially for improvisation as well! Rollins was notorious for having good and bad nights and that was the price he was willing to pay.

failure is the greatest teacher. Neither is it always one’s own fault. You can’t control everything and that’s an important lesson too. Maybe Liszt could haha. Music involves risk, like all good things in life. (Technique helps.) this is why many have a certain amount of disdain for Instagram players. Mancuso can cut it live though.

[AllanAllen]

He's doing his own thing. One of the most refreshing young players around

What’s refreshing here? The clip sounds like hold music, or the jazz that used to play on The Weather Channel.

I don’t get it, while I’m at it… I don’t get Julian Lange, or Allan Holdsworth either.

[pamosmusic]

you know there are live recordings of Allan playing badly too… he was a human being. You can’t avoid vulnerability…. And YouTube puts out everything for everyone to see, every bad night. But even in the pre internet days there were things like Birds recording of lover man.

This is interesting. Not sure I agree. YouTube (Instagram, TikTok, video etc)kind of gives everyone unlimited takes. So it’s hard to know how polished something is.

[Christian Miller]

This is interesting. Not sure I agree. YouTube (Instagram, TikTok, video etc)kind of gives everyone unlimited takes. So it’s hard to know how polished something is.

Re Instagram etc it’s both healthy and reasonable to assume everything is polished and precomposed unless you have clinching proof otherwise, like it’s a live gig recorded on a phone or something.

It actually takes less time (fewer takes) to film the video and record the audio separately. As soon as you do the latter you can drop in any number of edits and no one will be any the wiser - you won’t notice.*

how do I know this? I’ve done it myself

obviously this does not work for improv.

*well you can sometimes, but not unless it’s really quite egregious