-
Thanks ccroft. By the way, I practised exactly the same ascending/descending approach when learning the five positions.
I also decided to flip things around and practice all keys in one area of the neck. It occurred to me that this was best achieved by moving through a cycle of 4ths as this is the most common movement in functional Western harmony (ii-V-Is are the most obvious expression of the cycle).
The first step was to rearrange the CAGED forms to fit the cycle so that CAGED became EADGC. I then mapped these rearranged forms to the five most common keys in jazz: G-C-F-Bb-Eb. Before I knew it, I'd written an as yet unpublished book, appropriately titled Five by Five: A Progressive Approach to Jazz Guitar Soloing that builds upon these basic forms in a chronological/stylistic fashion.
Here's a sample containing the first of five chapters (naturally) covering major, dominant and minor lines followed by both major and minor ii-V-Is. Any feedback is welcome!
-
01-04-2023 11:28 PM
-
Originally Posted by KingKong
-
Originally Posted by PMB
But c'mon man, these are dated 2005! What's taking you so long!!
-
... as for the CAGED discussion, I'm surprised it's even being discussed. It's such a simple thing to memorise, and simple to use in any key. They contain all your chord shapes and arps and provide you with a map for whatever you're doing. I would have thought everyone on this forum would have had this down years ago. Expanding CAGED to 7 or even 12 positions is fine, but probably not necessary. Having a more horizontal approach, if one wishes, can grow out of just linking the CAGED positions.
It's the map you need, and it's surely the simplest. How the heck can you go anywhere in Jazz guitar without a map?
-
One of the very first books that I bought when I started to teach myself to play the guitar was Leigh Powers, The Scale Book. That must have been around 1984. I practiced it a lot until I didn't need it anymore. Great book. No idea whether it's still in print.
This is a passage from it that I quote in full (despite the excessive typing) because I think it's important and it's always stuck in my mind:
How to Practice Scales
1. Have a positive attitude.
2. Get plenty of rest and eat a hearty breakfast.
3. Work out with weights and run two miles daily.
4. Agree with everyone you meet that the only way to learn scales is to practice fingerings eleven hours a day for 2.716 years --- all the while frowning, complaining, and looking for a short cut by which you can master the study during a television commercial.
5. Ignore the preceding steps because they are not your cup of cocoa and because you prefer an intellectual approach. Study the guitar for years with every local guru-guitarist you can find. Learn everybody's tricks and then go get a master's degree in harmony at music school. Become an authoritative speaker, perhaps a charming and witty after-dinner guest speaker at the homes of local friends of musicians. Finally, sit down and learn your scales. Should this intellectual approach become too dry and mechanical for you, use magic.
6. Look at your hands. Discover that you have five fingers, the guitar has six strings and there are seven notes in the major scale. Draw a picture of your guitar and paint different frets and strings different colors. Paint a number on each finger, and using your subjective concept of pretty hand shapes, develop and practice interesting visual patterns. Be careful not to listen while you play, but devise a cute name for your system (like The Artful Scales, Shlonic Scales, or Triadic Equivalents) and go into business for yourself. Then sit down and play your scales.
QUESTION: Why did we write the preceding paragraphs?
ANSWER: To alert you to the damaging mental attitudes you could adopt concerning scale study. To learn scales is not hard, it isn't boring, it isn't a major part of your life. Don't make it these things! Don't be impatient, don't assume that you won't appreciate it or that you won't understand it because it's new. Don't rush, and don't overdo scale study --- but do give it a fair, honest effort.
-
Originally Posted by princeplanet
-
Originally Posted by Big Mac
-
Originally Posted by AllanAllen
-
Originally Posted by Litterick
-
Originally Posted by ccroft
Then I tried to lean jazz and got nowhere really until it clicked that the same positional approach would work!
Thing is that mastering it in Jazz, well there is a lot more to lean than for blues...
- all the scale variations
- all the arpegios for each degree in each position
- all the scale tone chords for each position
so I'm not gonna claim to have completely mastered this approach for Jazz, I need to sit down and actually do some practice!
-
Originally Posted by JWMandy
Last edited by AllanAllen; 01-06-2023 at 12:41 PM.
-
Alfred pub: Basix Scales and Modes" by Steve Hall?
-
Yeah, that's the one. It's nothing special, you can find all the stuff free online. I just happened to have a picture of those relevant pages.
-
Originally Posted by PMB
I think you would agree that although one may well investigate alternative fingerings, one needs to start somewhere and it's probably best to learn one approach before investigating others.
-
Originally Posted by princeplanet
-
Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
-
My guess is that Ron plays the keys from C as a hang over from piano-based pedagogy. In my mind, the guitar is in G. The open strings make up a G major pentatonic and G major and minor scales are the lowest that can be played with stretch fingerings on the guitar without involving open strings (unless of course, your guitar has an extra low B!).
-
Originally Posted by Litterick
Herb Ellis played out of chord shapes. He taught a "shape system." His major chord shapes were triads, so it was fewer shapes, but he had a couple shapes for minor and for dominants, so it's more shapes in total. But it's fairly easy.
Charlie Christian played out of shapes.
So did Barney Kessel.
That's not ALL they did but they all DID do that, and a lot of the time.
-
Originally Posted by princeplanet
I still think it's a worthwhile text but I see that Ron Eschete notes in the video Mark posted that he's extended his thinking to include 3NPS etc and refers to his own book as if it's a remote, ancient artefact.
By the way, I always enjoy your own posts. I know you're in Oz but do you live in Sydney? It'd be nice to meet up some time for a hang. I'm playing tonight if that works for you:
Log into Facebook | Facebook
-
Originally Posted by PMB
-
Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
-
At this point, I feel it's worth making the distinction between CAGED as a visual representation and as a fingering system.
It's interesting to note that guitarists who adopt the fingerings as their default - Pat Martino, Joe Pass (particularly in his 1962-1970 single line soloing recordings), Jimmy Bruno, Barry Greene - tend to pick most of their notes whereas players who favour stretch fingerings (Leavitt, 3NPS etc.) on the whole incorporate more hammers & pull offs. The latter camp would include bop pioneers such as Chuck Wayne, Tal Farlow and Jimmy Raney and the majority of players currently out there from Metheny, Scofield and Rosenwinkel up to neo-boppers such as Pasquale Grasso.
-
Originally Posted by PMB
Me is detecting some jazz snobbery here.
'this so called CAGED system that is sold to intermediate rock guitarists all over you tube, pah! That's not good enough for jazz, I need to make it more complicated and pretentious.'
-
Originally Posted by KingKong
-
I don't know what CAGED is but I know there are more notes worth including along with the pentatonic scale than just the ones he has added. Or at least ones I utilize pretty regularly. In the main "A" pentatonic starting from the root on the 6th string...
I like an Eb as a passing tone on the 5th string as well as a G# passing tone on the 4th string, and a C# on the 3rd string which works as a passing tone or a chord tone on the I.
I will sometimes use all the notes in between the 5th and 7th frets in 5th fret root scale pattern to create a smooth run all the way from D on the 5th string to B and C on the first, depending on what's happening. Gives it a smooth, flowing sound that work great hammered, pulled off, legato, etc. Adjust accordingly if you are working in strictly minor pentatonic stuff. Sometimes I feel like I'm just working towards an end point which will be drawing everything from a chromatic scale, I'm just not there yet mentally or musically. It just seems like even in a straight blues setting there are a lot of extra notes that are worthwhile if only as passing tones to smooth up some phrasing and allow for some additional speed.
Sorry if my post seems elementary. It is elementary as I am not very good with theory, but I have spent an inordinate amount of time with pentatonics/blues scales/major and minor both and those are some discoveries that have benefited my blues playing. It has helped with making more fluid pentatonic type runs especially. Hope that is useful to someone.
Julian Lage Trio - Sat 27th April - Marciac,...
Today, 03:57 PM in The Players