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Originally Posted by Marinero
But yeah, flawless, logical (and may a little too "text book") lines. Poor Sonny, he could outplay almost everyone, but copped criticism his entire career, I mean, in some ways he was even better than Bird, but in other ways perhaps not. Is it because he was just so damn neat? Sonny STIFF ?
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09-22-2022 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by kris
Jim Hall majored in composition when he was in college studying music, for example, and the effect of that is evident in his playing. Another player with strong compositional qualities is Bill Frisell, some of whose playing I really can't tolerate and some that I really love. When I think about my favorite jazz musicians, they are typically not flashy speed demons; they are playing lyrically and melodically, expressing emotion. One exception to that would be Allan Holdsworth; he tends to play lots of very fast legato lines which I find quite emotive, but I understand that not everybody does. On the other hand, his hero John Coltrane frequently leaves me rather cold when I listen to him- yet other people hear something completely different in Coltrane and hear him as a very emotive and expressive musician but may find Holdsworth mechanical and repetitious. A week, month, year, 10 years from now I may hear both those musicians completely differently than I do now.
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Originally Posted by BMoore
You are absolutely correct. I loaded the wrong album early this morning and then copied the notes. Here's the one I wanted. Sorry and thanks for the correction!
Marinero
P.S. I guess we can add 2 more years since it was recorded: 1958 and btw: Sonny played it beautifully in the "mistake" recording. M
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
Loved Sonny however, there was another alto player: Sonny Criss who claimed for years that he played like Bird before Bird. I heard Criss live at Hungry Jack's in Chicago in an organ trio in 72-3? and he was incredible. However, Stitt and Criss were great creators.
Marinero
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Originally Posted by Cunamara
E.g. I do not really dig that A Love Supreme stuff ( yeah flame me for that, fellas) but I love the stuff he did with Mal Waldron, Tadd Dameron and Monk (I do not care some people say he was not a god bopper), the stuff with Miles and the Blue Train album, the album he did with Duke and the Ballads album with McCoy and Elvin.
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"I suppose the intent of studying that music is to develop musicality versus playing scales and "hot licks." I hear an awful lot of jazz musicians who just seem to be rehashing the major, relative minor, harmonic minor and diminished scales rather than playing an improvised new melody. It tends to sound tedious after a couple of choruses, lacks emotional resonance, and is often flashy rather than substantive." Cunamara
Hi, C,
Well said! It's the "musicality" that is the "take-away" from studying the Classical tradition. When a musician studies a Classical music score, he is working within the black dots written on the page. His job, however, is to translate those dots into music through the perambulations of his formally-educated/creative mind, hands, and "soul" and as Old Willie said " . . there's the rub." He can't hide behind ideas he's created( or copied/stolen) that HE believes are creative(improvisation). He must stick to what is written. However, for any musician that thinks that Classical Music must be played within strict parameters of tempo, articulation, and note value, will fall short of fulfilling the composer's intent for performance. So, it is up to the individual musician to bring those dots to life and breathe humanity and artistry into the music. . .very much what happens in Jazz. Rote playing of notes is not Classical Music . . . nor is it Jazz. The line between the two genres, as far as creative performance, is thinner than most think.
Marinero
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by citizenk74
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Even Beethoven got drunk sometimes... "I said the guitar was what??!! No more of that Serbian slivovitz, Hans..."
Originally Posted by citizenk74
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Originally Posted by sgcim
Of course this is ignorant, I admit. But still, havin limited lifetime, one must priorize, I did since I was kid, and I am doing my best to get know both the legacy and the contemporary of jazz, "progressive" rock, and classical music with open mind. I am not doing it as an obligation or "learning program", It is simply a curiosity. This have the benefit not ranting on any style. (well except on spotify top lists, but that is not music, so out of topic :-))
Maybe more useful select between musicians within one era, one style than select and ignore eras and styles. So a few percent of musicians inevitably will have left within one era, one style...
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On "Beethoven and the guitar topic"...
also for "easy to understand" topic...
If Beethoven would know this... Sure he would not say any kind word about guitar. This connects also to ta-ta-ta-TAAA understandings, in disco rythm.
Probably I am too sensitive or overreacting, but soulless and rape words are coming to my mind
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
Sure Sonny had a bunch of stock licks he used here and there and is never going to sound like a total original like Art Pepper, but I never felt like Sonny was formulaic.
Now I like Grant Green's feeling and soul but he might have been the king of stock licks/formulaic jazz guitar.
It might be an unpopular opinion since Green is so revered but he had 1/2 dozen stock licks that he used in most every solo and just added around them.
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Originally Posted by Gabor
The first one who brought this “neo-classical” distorted BS to excessive heights was Yngwie Malmsteen. I once saw an interview with him where he said that instead of “less is more” (as often attributed to blues guitarists) his motto was “more is more”.
Which I found was also a good description of the out of control capitalism that is ruining this planet. (Before you stone me in a knee-jerk reaction because I used the C-word and you are conditioned to be afraid of the other C-word think about this: Is it really healthy to have a financial economy that is seven times — the last number I heard a few years ago — as large as the real economy?)
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Originally Posted by wintermoon
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Composers before a guitar commission be like
‘ah, an instrument of subtle poetry and most delicate shades of colour!’
Composer during a guitar commission be like
’did I say next month? I will have to move that back, I’m afraid. Several important commissions have come up, very important works. Very important large scale works. Considerable forces, many orchestration. Who for? None of your business!’
Composer after submitting piece that mostly consists of single note lines, fourth chords and natural harmonics be like ‘Never again. Infernal device. What’s that? A harp concerto? No problem!’
Everybody gangster till Bream come knocking.
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
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I was still reflecting the other "accessible too anyone" statement. My post was a mini rant on the topic, that I see it is more like "available to everyone to use, make money, and rape" than "understandable to everyone". (and also on "Beethoven and guitar" topic.)
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
For example, phrases that embellish the first three notes of the scale
After a whole video of this stuff my brain starts dibbling out my ears and I feel an urgent need to gnaw off my own leg, a response I usually reserve for Telemann. In context, these modules and formulae are gracefully elided, combined and decorated to create the rhetoric and language of the music. Exactly like jazz, in fact.
See also ‘teh licc’
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Originally Posted by sgcim
It is confirmed that Coltrane used LSD at the end of his life(he kicked the heroin habit) in hopes of opening new pathways to his creativity. There are countless articles one could read on this subject but it also provides a contrast of how he and Miles(heroin/cocaine) approached the end of their careers/lives. I believe that Coltrane remained the true artist(although deluded) with the idea that using LSD would create a higher level of musical consciousness in his artistic journey whereas Miles sold out for money, cars, fast life, and heavy drug use resulting in the extreme garbage he played at the end of his life. In both cases, both men were at the height of their creativity when they were the young lions of Jazz before they morphed into their tragic creative ablution. So, in Chicago(60's/70's), we had two great Jazz stations(AM radio): Marty Faye in the mornings and Daddy O Daylie in the evenings. Both stations refused to play the "new" music of Miles but did, however, play some of Coltrane's later meanderings. The life of a serious artist is akin to the struggles of Sisyphus . . . but I doubt he'll be found anywhere soon traversing the foothills of 2022 Jazz.
Marinero
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
"Midnight Album" thread: Jazz Guitar Online - "The Midnight Album"
(I listen to one album each day and write about it)
Direct link to the post on Medium.
Max Smith on Medium - Haydn Symphonies 22 and 55 by Sir Neville Marriner and The Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Anyway, not this is my point in this post, instead your metaphor, about the "party". It is important to make differentiate common intelligence, emotional intelligence and musical intelligence. Haydn may have better common intelligence (for example a wise businessman), even more emotional intelligence than Mozart, you are right. However the regarding your party methaphor, usually the party "stars" are simply the most loudest ones, and generally shallow jerks, In this terms your methaphor draws the picture (or at least may imply) as Haydn vs Mozart, Haydn an intellectual wise superior, compared to a shallow brillant jerk. (I do know you did not wrote this, but this is one possible interpretation of your point)
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...which is completely misleading because none of the common intelligence, none of the emotional intelligence do not play in art. Those two play in social life, and in parties.
What I am aware is the musical intelligence, in which Mozart is superior. Not even one category with Haydn. I did not buy Haydn so called humor too, waking up sleeping adience, is more appropriate in a clown joke for kids in circus than in concert hall...
When we focus on the musical intelligence, it turns out, that compared to Mozarts genius, Haydn is an experinced but boring salesman....Of course if we are not into the art, and formulating picture based on biographies, we got the conclusion of yours, which is pretty accurate I must admit.Last edited by Gabor; 09-24-2022 at 01:10 AM.
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I took a class in college on Beethoven. Easy A. At the time I thought he was the greatest classical composer who ever lived and used to listen to his music all the time.
However, over the years I started to feel that his music is bombastic and overly dramatic. I started to feel the same about Heavy Metal which I would describe as somehow similar to Beethoven's music.
Now, I find Mozart, Bach, and a few others more to my tastes.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
As I recall he was a mentor to the young Mozart, who really looked up to him. And Haydn had nothing but praise for his younger friend Mozart—as he told Mozart’s father Leopold, “Before God and as an honest man I tell you that your son is the greatest composer known to me either in person or by name; he has taste, and, furthermore, the most profound knowledge of composition.” Mozart called Haydn Papa as long as he knew him.
Apparently they played concerts together as a quartet with other well-known players of the day, Haydn on first or second violin and Mozart on viola. What performances those must have been!
A mentor of mine, a history professor at my college, was working on a magnum opus when he passed away in his late 70’s. It was to be an encyclopedic work looking at the absolute best “classical” artists in several fields—music, painting, architecture, etc. For music his pick was Mozart. As he said, Mozart not only wrote in every type of genre of the day, but his works—symphonies, operas, quartets, piano sonatas and concertos, were among the very best of any composer. No one else can claim that.
(Though I recall that Beethoven also had a varied output, but he only composed one opera. A very good one, but not comparable to Mozart’s 22, the first of which he composed when he was 10, and at least half a dozen must be considered among the very best ever composed.)
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Originally Posted by sgcim
Julian Lage Trio - Sat 27th April - Marciac,...
Today, 03:57 PM in The Players