How Long Do You Expect Me To Take This??????

[princeplanet]

... We, as musicians, must truly understand that when we play, we must speak with our own voice otherwise we will be lost in doggerel, mimicry, and formulaic improvisations ....

I don't wanna be a smart ass, but Sonny Stitt was often accused of mimicry, and of formulaic improvisations....

But yeah, flawless, logical (and may a little too "text book") lines. Poor Sonny, he could outplay almost everyone, but copped criticism his entire career, I mean, in some ways he was even better than Bird, but in other ways perhaps not. Is it because he was just so damn neat? Sonny STIFF ?

[Cunamara]

I've always been intrigued by this: How does listening to classical music help a jazz musician?
Ludwig van Beethoven - in the music school I even had an exam in all the symphonies written by him.
I listened to his music for hours and in the evening I played "blues" in a jazz clubs, that was in the 70's.

I suppose the intent of studying that music is to develop musicality versus playing scales and "hot licks." I hear an awful lot of jazz musicians who just seem to be rehashing the major, relative minor, harmonic minor and diminished scales rather than playing an improvised new melody. It tends to sound tedious after a couple of choruses, lacks emotional resonance, and is often flashy rather than substantive.

Jim Hall majored in composition when he was in college studying music, for example, and the effect of that is evident in his playing. Another player with strong compositional qualities is Bill Frisell, some of whose playing I really can't tolerate and some that I really love. When I think about my favorite jazz musicians, they are typically not flashy speed demons; they are playing lyrically and melodically, expressing emotion. One exception to that would be Allan Holdsworth; he tends to play lots of very fast legato lines which I find quite emotive, but I understand that not everybody does. On the other hand, his hero John Coltrane frequently leaves me rather cold when I listen to him- yet other people hear something completely different in Coltrane and hear him as a very emotive and expressive musician but may find Holdsworth mechanical and repetitious. A week, month, year, 10 years from now I may hear both those musicians completely differently than I do now.

[Marinero]

62 years later and we're mistaking Sonny Stitt (on alto, btw) for Coltrane.

Yes, B,
You are absolutely correct. I loaded the wrong album early this morning and then copied the notes. Here's the one I wanted. Sorry and thanks for the correction!
Marinero

P.S. I guess we can add 2 more years since it was recorded: 1958 and btw: Sonny played it beautifully in the "mistake" recording. M

[Marinero]

I don't wanna be a smart ass, but Sonny Stitt was often accused of mimicry, and of formulaic improvisations....

But yeah, flawless, logical (and may a little too "text book") lines. Poor Sonny, he could outplay almost everyone, but copped criticism his entire career, I mean, in some ways he was even better than Bird, but in other ways perhaps not. Is it because he was just so damn neat? Sonny STIFF ?

Hi, P,
Loved Sonny however, there was another alto player: Sonny Criss who claimed for years that he played like Bird before Bird. I heard Criss live at Hungry Jack's in Chicago in an organ trio in 72-3? and he was incredible. However, Stitt and Criss were great creators.
Marinero

[Bop Head]

[…] On the other hand, his hero John Coltrane frequently leaves me rather cold when I listen to him- yet other people hear something completely different in Coltrane and hear him as a very emotive and expressive musician but may find Holdsworth mechanical and repetitious. A week, month, year, 10 years from now I may hear both those musicians completely differently than I do now.

Coltrane went through many phases — which one are you refering to?

E.g. I do not really dig that A Love Supreme stuff ( yeah flame me for that, fellas) but I love the stuff he did with Mal Waldron, Tadd Dameron and Monk (I do not care some people say he was not a god bopper), the stuff with Miles and the Blue Train album, the album he did with Duke and the Ballads album with McCoy and Elvin.

[Marinero]

"I suppose the intent of studying that music is to develop musicality versus playing scales and "hot licks." I hear an awful lot of jazz musicians who just seem to be rehashing the major, relative minor, harmonic minor and diminished scales rather than playing an improvised new melody. It tends to sound tedious after a couple of choruses, lacks emotional resonance, and is often flashy rather than substantive." Cunamara

Hi, C,
Well said! It's the "musicality" that is the "take-away" from studying the Classical tradition. When a musician studies a Classical music score, he is working within the black dots written on the page. His job, however, is to translate those dots into music through the perambulations of his formally-educated/creative mind, hands, and "soul" and as Old Willie said " . . there's the rub." He can't hide behind ideas he's created( or copied/stolen) that HE believes are creative(improvisation). He must stick to what is written. However, for any musician that thinks that Classical Music must be played within strict parameters of tempo, articulation, and note value, will fall short of fulfilling the composer's intent for performance. So, it is up to the individual musician to bring those dots to life and breathe humanity and artistry into the music. . .very much what happens in Jazz. Rote playing of notes is not Classical Music . . . nor is it Jazz. The line between the two genres, as far as creative performance, is thinner than most think.
Marinero

[sgcim]

Coltrane went through many phases — which one are you refering to?

E.g. I do not really dig that A Love Supreme stuff ( yeah flame me for that, fellas) but I love the stuff he did with Mal Waldron, Tadd Dameron and Monk (I do not care some people say he was not a god bopper), the stuff with Miles and the Blue Train album, the album he did with Duke and the Ballads album with McCoy and Elvin.

One sax player I played with claimed Trane was tripping on acid every day towards the end. Maybe that's why the hippies liked that stuff so much.

[sgcim]

Oo which ones that?

I wish I could remember. It was eons ago when I was an undergrad taking a "Chamber Music of the Classical Period" course. Maybe your wife would know. Just play her Purple Haze and maybe she'll remember which one it was.

[Christian Miller]

Beethoven also called the guitar the"Perfect musical instrument."

no doubt because he never tried writing for it

[maxsmith]

Even Beethoven got drunk sometimes... "I said the guitar was what??!! No more of that Serbian slivovitz, Hans..."

Beethoven also called the guitar the"Perfect musical instrument." Before the birth of the L-5! A visionary, for sure!

[Gabor]

There's a HUGE difference betwixt Schonberg and Hindemith. Listen to the first movement of Symphony Mathis der Maler by Hindemith. posted by Bop Head. I think it's one of the greatest works in the history of music, period. Depriving yourself of that would be like depriving yourself of the entire works of Jim Hall, Jimmy Raney, Tal Farlow etc...
Schonberg couldn't have written music like that if his life had depended on it.

(emphasis by me) ...exactly this is what I am doing... (not Jim Hall)

Of course this is ignorant, I admit. But still, havin limited lifetime, one must priorize, I did since I was kid, and I am doing my best to get know both the legacy and the contemporary of jazz, "progressive" rock, and classical music with open mind. I am not doing it as an obligation or "learning program", It is simply a curiosity. This have the benefit not ranting on any style. (well except on spotify top lists, but that is not music, so out of topic :-))

Maybe more useful select between musicians within one era, one style than select and ignore eras and styles. So a few percent of musicians inevitably will have left within one era, one style...

[Gabor]

On "Beethoven and the guitar topic"...
also for "easy to understand" topic...

If Beethoven would know this... Sure he would not say any kind word about guitar. This connects also to ta-ta-ta-TAAA understandings, in disco rythm.

Probably I am too sensitive or overreacting, but soulless and rape words are coming to my mind

[wintermoon]

I don't wanna be a smart ass, but Sonny Stitt was often accused of mimicry, and of formulaic improvisations....

But yeah, flawless, logical (and may a little too "text book") lines. Poor Sonny, he could outplay almost everyone, but copped criticism his entire career, I mean, in some ways he was even better than Bird, but in other ways perhaps not. Is it because he was just so damn neat? Sonny STIFF ?

On a long drive home tonight I was listening to Sonny w his rhythm section of Grant Green, guitar, and his regular bandmates Don Patterson, organ and Billy James drums.
Sure Sonny had a bunch of stock licks he used here and there and is never going to sound like a total original like Art Pepper, but I never felt like Sonny was formulaic.
Now I like Grant Green's feeling and soul but he might have been the king of stock licks/formulaic jazz guitar.
It might be an unpopular opinion since Green is so revered but he had 1/2 dozen stock licks that he used in most every solo and just added around them.

[Bop Head]

On "Beethoven and the guitar topic"...
also for "easy to understand" topic...

If Beethoven would know this... Sure he would not say any kind word about guitar. This connects also to ta-ta-ta-TAAA understandings, in disco rythm.

Probably I am too sensitive or overreacting, but soulless and rape words are coming to my mind

I hope it was clear that the live video by German hard & heavy band Accept (with the “Für Elise” solo) I posted above was meant ironic. I would have loved this one at 16 as well but in three months I am 50 (though I still could describe why i liked hard rock and heavy metal).

The first one who brought this “neo-classical” distorted BS to excessive heights was Yngwie Malmsteen. I once saw an interview with him where he said that instead of “less is more” (as often attributed to blues guitarists) his motto was “more is more”.

Which I found was also a good description of the out of control capitalism that is ruining this planet. (Before you stone me in a knee-jerk reaction because I used the C-word and you are conditioned to be afraid of the other C-word think about this: Is it really healthy to have a financial economy that is seven times — the last number I heard a few years ago — as large as the real economy?)

[Bop Head]

On a long drive home tonight I was listening to Sonny w his rhythm section of Grant Green, guitar, and his regular bandmates Don Patterson, organ and Billy James drums.
Sure Sonny had a bunch of stock licks he used here and there and is never going to sound like a total original like Art Pepper, but I never felt like Sonny was formulaic.
Now I like Grant Green's feeling and soul but he might have been the king of stock licks/formulaic jazz guitar.
It might be an unpopular opinion since Green is so revered but he had 1/2 dozen stock licks that he used in most every solo and just added around them.

Charlie Parker was formulaic as well. Thomas Owens analyzed it in his close to 900 pages dissertation in 1974. And Sonny (like almost everyone except for Lee Konitz who made the conscious decision not to do it) copied Bird.

[Christian Miller]

Composers before a guitar commission be like
‘ah, an instrument of subtle poetry and most delicate shades of colour!’

Composer during a guitar commission be like
’did I say next month? I will have to move that back, I’m afraid. Several important commissions have come up, very important works. Very important large scale works. Considerable forces, many orchestration. Who for? None of your business!’

Composer after submitting piece that mostly consists of single note lines, fourth chords and natural harmonics be like ‘Never again. Infernal device. What’s that? A harp concerto? No problem!’

Everybody gangster till Bream come knocking.

[djg]

Charlie Parker was formulaic as well. Thomas Owens analyzed it in his close to 900 pages dissertation in 1974. And Sonny (like almost everyone except for Lee Konitz who made the conscious decision not to do it) copied Bird.

the jazz of charlie parker and grant green is folk music. formulaic is a good thing there, since it taps into something bigger that the individual musician. i compare licks to clan tags.

[Gabor]

I hope it was clear that the live video by German hard & heavy band Accept (with the “Für Elise” solo) I posted above was meant ironic. I would have loved this one at 16 as well but in three months I am 50 (though I still could describe why i liked hard rock and heavy metal).

The first one who brought this “neo-classical” distorted BS to excessive heights was Yngwie Malmsteen. I once saw an interview with him where he said that instead of “less is more” (as often attributed to blues guitarists) his motto was “more is more”.

Which I found was also a good description of the out of control capitalism that is ruining this planet. (Before you stone me in a knee-jerk reaction because I used the C-word and you are conditioned to be afraid of the other C-word think about this: Is it really healthy to have a financial economy that is seven times — the last number I heard a few years ago — as large as the real economy?)

yes it was clear. well said otherwise, just as this post above.

***

I was still reflecting the other "accessible too anyone" statement. My post was a mini rant on the topic, that I see it is more like "available to everyone to use, make money, and rape" than "understandable to everyone". (and also on "Beethoven and guitar" topic.)

[Christian Miller]

Charlie Parker was formulaic as well. Thomas Owens analyzed it in his close to 900 pages dissertation in 1974. And Sonny (like almost everyone except for Lee Konitz who made the conscious decision not to do it) copied Bird.

You will not find more formulaic music than 18th century classical music. There’s a whole area of study devoted to it called Schemata theory.

For example, phrases that embellish the first three notes of the scale

After a whole video of this stuff my brain starts dibbling out my ears and I feel an urgent need to gnaw off my own leg, a response I usually reserve for Telemann. In context, these modules and formulae are gracefully elided, combined and decorated to create the rhetoric and language of the music. Exactly like jazz, in fact.

See also ‘teh licc’

[Marinero]

One sax player I played with claimed Trane was tripping on acid every day towards the end. Maybe that's why the hippies liked that stuff so much.

Hi, S,
It is confirmed that Coltrane used LSD at the end of his life(he kicked the heroin habit) in hopes of opening new pathways to his creativity. There are countless articles one could read on this subject but it also provides a contrast of how he and Miles(heroin/cocaine) approached the end of their careers/lives. I believe that Coltrane remained the true artist(although deluded) with the idea that using LSD would create a higher level of musical consciousness in his artistic journey whereas Miles sold out for money, cars, fast life, and heavy drug use resulting in the extreme garbage he played at the end of his life. In both cases, both men were at the height of their creativity when they were the young lions of Jazz before they morphed into their tragic creative ablution. So, in Chicago(60's/70's), we had two great Jazz stations(AM radio): Marty Faye in the mornings and Daddy O Daylie in the evenings. Both stations refused to play the "new" music of Miles but did, however, play some of Coltrane's later meanderings. The life of a serious artist is akin to the struggles of Sisyphus . . . but I doubt he'll be found anywhere soon traversing the foothills of 2022 Jazz.
Marinero

[maxsmith]

i listened to the 22nd symphony on the way to a recording session. The one with the horn. It’s very good.

Thanks for pointing me at this one, Christian - it is very good, and inspired my "Midnight Album" post on Medium today.

"Midnight Album" thread: Jazz Guitar Online - "The Midnight Album"
(I listen to one album each day and write about it)

Direct link to the post on Medium.
Max Smith on Medium - Haydn Symphonies 22 and 55 by Sir Neville Marriner and The Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields

[Gabor]

interesting metaphor haha

because Haydn is not really like Mozart. Their music does different things. It’s actually a bit like comparing apples to oranges. It’s hard to put in to words but it’s like they use similar language to tell different stories. Haydn is like some super knowledgable and witty friend who doesn’t have to hog the limelight but is always brilliant when he does, while Mozart is the life and soul of the party but can get a bit much sometimes.

One thing I find interesting about Haydn is he had such a long career, he actually bridges the classical era. His early works are almost late baroque and his late works are early romantic.

(I think my methaphor has some base, as the style, language and partly the era is the same, I was comparing say a pink lady to gala)

Anyway, not this is my point in this post, instead your metaphor, about the "party". It is important to make differentiate common intelligence, emotional intelligence and musical intelligence. Haydn may have better common intelligence (for example a wise businessman), even more emotional intelligence than Mozart, you are right. However the regarding your party methaphor, usually the party "stars" are simply the most loudest ones, and generally shallow jerks, In this terms your methaphor draws the picture (or at least may imply) as Haydn vs Mozart, Haydn an intellectual wise superior, compared to a shallow brillant jerk. (I do know you did not wrote this, but this is one possible interpretation of your point)

***

...which is completely misleading because none of the common intelligence, none of the emotional intelligence do not play in art. Those two play in social life, and in parties.

What I am aware is the musical intelligence, in which Mozart is superior. Not even one category with Haydn. I did not buy Haydn so called humor too, waking up sleeping adience, is more appropriate in a clown joke for kids in circus than in concert hall...

When we focus on the musical intelligence, it turns out, that compared to Mozarts genius, Haydn is an experinced but boring salesman....Of course if we are not into the art, and formulating picture based on biographies, we got the conclusion of yours, which is pretty accurate I must admit.

[charlieparker]

I took a class in college on Beethoven. Easy A. At the time I thought he was the greatest classical composer who ever lived and used to listen to his music all the time.

However, over the years I started to feel that his music is bombastic and overly dramatic. I started to feel the same about Heavy Metal which I would describe as somehow similar to Beethoven's music.

Now, I find Mozart, Bach, and a few others more to my tastes.

[Doctor Jeff]

interesting metaphor haha

because Haydn is not really like Mozart. Their music does different things. It’s actually a bit like comparing apples to oranges. It’s hard to put in to words but it’s like they use similar language to tell different stories. Haydn is like some super knowledgable and witty friend who doesn’t have to hog the limelight but is always brilliant when he does, while Mozart is the life and soul of the party but can get a bit much sometimes.

One thing I find interesting about Haydn is he had such a long career, he actually bridges the classical era. His early works are almost late baroque and his late works are early romantic.

You know that’s not a bad characterization. Haydn often gets downplayed as archaic and a bit of a dull penny compared to Mozart and the Romantic composers, but he was incredibly talented and accomplished. Every piece of Haydn I have listened to is exquisite. Does he have the panache of Mozart or Beethoven? Not to my ears, but maybe there’s something I haven’t heard? Workmanlike is how I would describe his voluminous repertoire.

As I recall he was a mentor to the young Mozart, who really looked up to him. And Haydn had nothing but praise for his younger friend Mozart—as he told Mozart’s father Leopold, “Before God and as an honest man I tell you that your son is the greatest composer known to me either in person or by name; he has taste, and, furthermore, the most profound knowledge of composition.” Mozart called Haydn Papa as long as he knew him.

Apparently they played concerts together as a quartet with other well-known players of the day, Haydn on first or second violin and Mozart on viola. What performances those must have been!

A mentor of mine, a history professor at my college, was working on a magnum opus when he passed away in his late 70’s. It was to be an encyclopedic work looking at the absolute best “classical” artists in several fields—music, painting, architecture, etc. For music his pick was Mozart. As he said, Mozart not only wrote in every type of genre of the day, but his works—symphonies, operas, quartets, piano sonatas and concertos, were among the very best of any composer. No one else can claim that.

(Though I recall that Beethoven also had a varied output, but he only composed one opera. A very good one, but not comparable to Mozart’s 22, the first of which he composed when he was 10, and at least half a dozen must be considered among the very best ever composed.)

[DonEsteban]

Yes, but he used parallel fifths on one passage. My theory teacher said he was a bad man. A very, very bad man...

I very, very rarely really LOL reading this forum, but here I did... kudos!