How Long Do You Expect Me To Take This??????

[Lionelsax]

Well, since I got your attention . . . I, really, mean it since the disparity between New Gen players and Old Gen sadly continues to grow. It doesn't require a rant when you have the pudding . . . here's Jimmy Smith, Kenny Burrell, Herman Riley(tenor), and Grady Tate performing "Organ Grinder's Swing" from the excellent album "Live in Vienne, France 1993. Really guys, with rare exception, where has this music gone? Enjoy!

P.S. Herman Riley, a great and unknown tenor player to many, just tears it up!
M

Jazz6 !

[Gabor]

...regarding (Beethoven) "accessable to anyone, especially if you compare it to e.g. Stravinsky, Schönberg, Bartok, Hindemith"

my experience is the opposite. I listened Bartók when I was 20, and accepted Beethoven only 20 years later when I was 40. When I was 20 I found Beethoven "boring" which is obviously nonsense.

To be fair, Keith Emerson helped me a lot, the very first title in the very first ELP album is Allegro Barbaro, so literally speaking I listened and admired, and partly understood Bartók when I was 14 :-). Same goes to Pictures of an Exhibbiton, and Nutcracker.

Unfortunatelly Keith Emerson has avoided Beethoven from afar and left me on my own in that respect. Hard work, repeated attempts and the string quartets finally did the job :-)

(I do not think I will ever listen Schönberg or Hindemith)

[Bop Head]

[…] (I do not think I will ever listen Schönberg or Hindemith)

Andrew Hill studied with Hindemith.

[Christian Miller]

Are you sure? The world-embracing power of his music (accessible too anyone)* is the reason why his music is very often played at official events e.g. of the United Nations or the European Union.** (Was Beethoven the reason for the Brexit LOL?)

* especially if you compare it to e.g. Stravinsky, Schönberg, Bartok, Hindemith

** Beethoven wanted to take the 4th movement of his 9th (“Ode to Joy”) — that later became the anthem of the EU — out of print because he did not like it, he found it rhythmically to primitive, but it was to late.

Symphony no9 is a fantastically peculiar piece of music if you really listen to it. I can really understand why people thought he was mad, and also why so many found it inspiring.

I mean beyond the big tune, all that strange connecting tissue, sudden violence, juxtapositions. He opens the last movement with an unclassifiable seven note dissonance that must have been completely shocking to those raised on Haydn, and it still sounds pretty powerful today. Having the cellos and basses play vocal recitative. He's tearing up every rule he can think of. There's something a little terrifying about the finale too, a little too much. We are well and truly through the looking glass with this one. Beethoven isn't cosy - he's a violent revolutionary.

And yes, he does address the common person.

Perfect music for our times.

(Perhaps I've just listened to a lot of humdrum 18th/early 19th century music so I know how that music is meant to behave haha)

Beethoven was busy inventing 20th century music in the early 19th, especially when you get to the late quartets.

[citizenk74]

Symphony no9 is a fantastically peculiar piece of music if you really listen to it. I can really understand why people thought he was mad, and also why so many found it inspiring.

I mean beyond the big tune, all that strange connecting tissue, sudden violence, juxtapositions. He opens the last movement with an unclassifiable seven note dissonance that must have been completely shocking to those raised on Haydn, and it still sounds pretty powerful today. Having the cellos and basses play vocal recitative. He's tearing up every rule he can think of. There's something a little terrifying about the finale too, a little too much. We are well and truly through the looking glass with this one. Beethoven isn't cosy - he's a violent revolutionary.

And yes, he does address the common person.

Perfect music for our times.

(Perhaps I've just listened to a lot of humdrum 18th/early 19th century music so I know how that music is meant to behave haha)

Beethoven was busy inventing 20th century music in the early 19th, especially when you get to the late quartets.

Yes! Yes! A thousand times, Yes! Van B da Man!

[citizenk74]

Bruckner … no one mentioned Bruckner …

Or Buxethude, for that matter.

The organist for our church when I was young was very well versed, and played the pipe organ for all it was worth.

[citizenk74]

interesting metaphor haha

because Haydn is not really like Mozart. Their music does different things. It’s actually a bit like comparing apples to oranges. It’s hard to put in to words but it’s like they use similar language to tell different stories. Haydn is like some super knowledgable and witty friend who doesn’t have to hog the limelight but is always brilliant when he does, while Mozart is the life and soul of the party but can get a bit much sometimes.

One thing I find interesting about Haydn is he had such a long career, he actually bridges the classical era. His early works are almost late baroque and his late works are early romantic.

Haydn and Hendrix lived at the same London address.

Not simultaneously.

[Bop Head]

Haydn and Hendrix lived at the same London address.

Not simultaneously.

It was Händel and Hendrix

[sgcim]

Symphony no9 is a fantastically peculiar piece of music if you really listen to it. I can really understand why people thought he was mad, and also why so many found it inspiring.

I mean beyond the big tune, all that strange connecting tissue, sudden violence, juxtapositions. He opens the last movement with an unclassifiable seven note dissonance that must have been completely shocking to those raised on Haydn, and it still sounds pretty powerful today. Having the cellos and basses play vocal recitative. He's tearing up every rule he can think of. There's something a little terrifying about the finale too, a little too much. We are well and truly through the looking glass with this one. Beethoven isn't cosy - he's a violent revolutionary.

And yes, he does address the common person.

Perfect music for our times.

(Perhaps I've just listened to a lot of humdrum 18th/early 19th century music so I know how that music is meant to behave haha)

Beethoven was busy inventing 20th century music in the early 19th, especially when you get to the late quartets.

Yes, but he used parallel fifths on one passage. My theory teacher said he was a bad man. A very, very bad man...

[sgcim]

Andrew Hill studied with Hindemith.

Dat's some first movement! I wanna write a piece just so I can steal that incredible climax.
John Cacavas (a film composer) studied with Hindemith. He asked him why his books contained nothing that sounded like Mathis.
Hindemith said, "What, do you think I'm crazy? You think I'm going to give away my greatest secrets for a book that costs three or four dollars?!"

[maxsmith]

Now my music listening time is also limited, so why would I listen Haydn, when I can listen Mozart?

Why not just listen to what you like? You don't anyone's approval or wine metaphors.

If you like Mozart, fine.

I you like Gucci Mane, fine (just keep your windows rolled up).

[sgcim]

The missus says those that prefer Haydn ‘lack virtue.’

She might be referring to that Haydn Quartet that blares out a 7th #9 chord that comes out of nowhere.Only people who lack any kind of virtue whatsoever would like a composer like that!
I asked my teacher why the heck he did that, and she said he liked to play musical jokes on people, or wanted to upset the royalty.
That's why I always insist people refer to him as 'Papa' Hendrix.
.

[sgcim]

...regarding (Beethoven) "accessable to anyone, especially if you compare it to e.g. Stravinsky, Schönberg, Bartok, Hindemith"

my experience is the opposite. I listened Bartók when I was 20, and accepted Beethoven only 20 years later when I was 40. When I was 20 I found Beethoven "boring" which is obviously nonsense.

To be fair, Keith Emerson helped me a lot, the very first title in the very first ELP album is Allegro Barbaro, so literally speaking I listened and admired, and partly understood Bartók when I was 14 :-). Same goes to Pictures of an Exhibbiton, and Nutcracker.

Unfortunatelly Keith Emerson has avoided Beethoven from afar and left me on my own in that respect. Hard work, repeated attempts and the string quartets finally did the job :-)
There's a HUGE difference betwixt Schonberg and Hindemith. Listen to the first movement of Symphony Mathis der Maler by Hindemith. posted by Bop Head. I think it's one of the greatest works in the history of music, period.
Schonberg couldn't write music like that if his life had depended on it.
(I do not think I will ever listen Schönberg or Hindemith)

There's a HUGE difference betwixt Schonberg and Hindemith. Listen to the first movement of Symphony Mathis der Maler by Hindemith. posted by Bop Head. I think it's one of the greatest works in the history of music, period. Depriving yourself of that would be like depriving yourself of the entire works of Jim Hall, Jimmy Raney, Tal Farlow etc...
Schonberg couldn't have written music like that if his life had depended on it.

[Bop Head]

There's a HUGE difference betwixt Schonberg and Hindemith. Listen to the first movement of Symphony Mathis der Maler by Hindemith. posted by Bop Head. I think it's one of the greatest works in the history of music, period. Depriving yourself of that would be like depriving yourself of the entire works of Jim Hall, Jimmy Raney, Tal Farlow etc...
Schonberg couldn't have written music like that if his life had depended on it.

Let’s not forget Schönberg had to leave Germany because his life depended on it. And he wrote an important theoretical work.

[citizenk74]

It was Händel and Hendrix

[QUOTE][/QUOTE

My bad memory. Thanks for the correction!

[Cunamara]

Well, since I got your attention . . . I, really, mean it since the disparity between New Gen players and Old Gen sadly continues to grow. It doesn't require a rant when you have the pudding . . . here's Jimmy Smith, Kenny Burrell, Herman Riley(tenor), and Grady Tate performing "Organ Grinder's Swing" from the excellent album "Live in Vienne, France 1993. Really guys, with rare exception, where has this music gone?

Would you really want people still rehashing this ground 30 years later? Isn't the music supposed to grow and develop? I do miss the swing groove which a lot of newer jazz players seem to have largely abandoned, but they've got other things going on.

The "new gen" players (however you are defining that- where's the boundary? Pat Metheny, maybe, being the inflection point?) have a wide range of diversity:

This stuff is great!

[kris]

I've always been intrigued by this: How does listening to classical music help a jazz musician?
Ludwig van Beethoven - in the music school I even had an exam in all the symphonies written by him.
I listened to his music for hours and in the evening I played "blues" in a jazz clubs, that was in the 70's.

[Christian Miller]

Yes, but he used parallel fifths on one passage. My theory teacher said he was a bad man. A very, very bad man...

look at that, he invented metal as well

[Bop Head]

look at that, he invented metal as well

German steel LOL (better skip to 2:50 LOL)

[Christian Miller]

She might be referring to that Haydn Quartet that blares out a 7th #9 chord that comes out of nowhere.Only people who lack any kind of virtue whatsoever would like a composer like that!
I asked my teacher why the heck he did that, and she said he liked to play musical jokes on people, or wanted to upset the royalty.
That's why I always insist people refer to him as 'Papa' Hendrix.
.

Oo which ones that?

[Christian Miller]

I have a soft spot for this one

I tried to see it live but didn’t pre order tickets and it was sold out lol

out of schoenbergs books I got the most out of fundamentals of musical composition. That’s said there’s probably loads of Harmonielehre stuff that I use without thinking.

it’s amazing how many concepts Schoenberg developed that are now taught as standard

german music theory though, boo

[Marinero]

Very interesting responses and tastes. Someone mentioned "Ode To Joy" by Beethoven which I absolutely detest and do not feel it represents the best of his music. Part of the problem is that I play it, in transcription, in my "Commoners' Gigs" and they all love it . . . and it's my opinion is that they love it because they recognize it from being played ad nauseum on TV and Radio. Makes sense, right? However, Beethoven was a brooder and his best music reflects his deep, profound understanding of the world. My favorite piece(which is available in CG transcription) is his Adagio Movement from his Symphony Pathetique. This is the mastery of LVB in writing about the human experience. Here's Matthew McCallister and Wilhelm Kempff. Enjoy
Marinero

[Marinero]

So, yesterday, I uncovered this gem From Miles and Coltrane in Stockholm in 1960. Stardust, is probably one of the most played songs in popular music history, and for good reason . . . a beautiful melody complimented by very sentimental lyrics that leave few listeners untouched. And, again, the needle keeps skipping on the record and I ask: why is no one playing with this ability today? Coltrane was a master of pacing, nuance, connectivity of phrases, and an inventive harmonic/melodic sense. If you follow the music, the magic unfolds note by note, phrase by phrase, and leaves the listener with a special moment in time. We, as musicians, must truly understand that when we play, we must speak with our own voice otherwise we will be lost in doggerel, mimicry, and formulaic improvisations played by everyone else as in the unrelenting Youtube tutorials that are creating musical automatons. Listen to Coltrane's take on this song and think to yourself: 62 years ago and where are we today? Enjoy.
Marinero

[BMoore]

62 years later and we're mistaking Sonny Stitt (on alto, btw) for Coltrane.

[citizenk74]

Beethoven also called the guitar the"Perfect musical instrument." Before the birth of the L-5! A visionary, for sure!