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Listening to Jim Hall's "Inspiration and Dedication" record, I thaught about all those critics who say "he lacks speed, BUT makes up for it in...." as if the fact that his preoccupation with texture, dynamics, intelligent phrasing and motives that literally tell us a story and take us somewhere is good, but according to critics, "still lacks speed." So much precidence has been put on these technical wizards who, as we were talking before, play a lot of notes, but with no feeling. st or technical. most
Kenny Burrell is the exact same sit. He plays beautifully, with great, melodic ideas that take us places. Grant Green could take us places far beyond imagination by conforming one motif, and he wasn't the faste
Is it just me, or are you too bothered that these players ostercized for lack of speed?
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04-13-2010 12:14 AM
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not that i doubt you but i havent heard that. i have heard that some find him to be too mellow and introspective for their tastes.
in his day (1970s) Hall was fast enough when he used hammer ons and pulls offs.
more recently Hall admitted with self deprecating humor that he and his pals would try to copy Johnny Smith's long ascending lines, yet couldn't do it. he also said that he would love to have all these great chops that the young hot shots have, but then not use them.
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I've got 15 Jim Hall albums from 1956 to 2003 and I've never noticed anything missing. Hall is a team player, not a rock star. He plays what is best for the piece, not just to get some tail after the show.
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I'm not bothered. Bill Frisell is another guy who is not a super fast player, and yet his art is magnificent, imho.
I wonder if such people also think the guy who talks the fastest is the one who has the most interesting or beautiful things to say?
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Much as I love Jim Hall I can understand why non-jazz fans might not get him. He's not "entry-level" jazz, like a Lee Ritenour.
One of his strengths is the teams he works with, like Ron Carter, Tommy Flanagan, Paul Desmond, Bill Evans, Art Farmer. You don't have to be a guitarist to listen to Jim Hall albums.
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My personal measure of enough speed is can you play Charlie Parker heads at 200bpm. I like Be-Bop and think it should be part of a jazz guitarists repetoire.
Jim Hall can play fast enough.
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Originally Posted by Flat
It's funny, because I've often related speaking with big, fancy words to musical phrasing. I think when politicians use fancy, catch-wrods that the common man wants to hear, they jump on the boat and then want to vote for that politician.
If you learn fancy words but can't get you message across, then what's the point of speaking? Like the comedian Dennis Miller, he uses "big words" just to sound intelligent, but doesn't use them in a context that people can understand.
I remember Bill Evans saying that when improvising, the idea was to try and not play all the superfluous, unnessicary fancy stuff, unless it got your point across
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I think one of the worst things in all music, and particularly in guitar, is the worship of speed. Speed is a tool to change dynamics. It is very hard to be musical and fast at the same time imo. I can think of Paco, Al, and John playing on Friday Night In San Francisco as an example of the highest level of chops, but not their best work. It is entertaining to me because those guys are the best in the world, and the interaction between them is very engaging. Same could be said with Joe and Nils on Chops.
I know this will sound like an old man telling the kids to get the hell off my lawn, but to me, your opinion of speed says a bunch about your maturity as a player/listener. I like fast guys just fine, but playing fast for the sake of playing fast, or doing it all the time lacks character to me. I am well aware many (most?) disagree with this stance.
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I COMPLETELY AGREE. I think the general public who doesn't really focus on the communication and musical aspect of players, are just wowed by pyrotechnics and fast chops. They autimatically assume the player is a genious and talented JUST because he can burn. This is why alot of the younger players, which some call "jazz shredders" can only sell DVD's but not be taken as serious artists with musical sense. It's kind of like hearing a politician or salesman try to wow me with hot words. It will work on the ignorant, but not on people with sense.
I remember reading about Thelonious and Bud Powell being compared when they first came out. The tow were gods amongst men, and were two TOTALLY different players. The public was wowed with Bud's lengthy, bop-driven lines, but didn't understand the "odd" note and rhythm selection and musicality of Thelonious. In the end they were both credited as geniouses, and it's often said Thelonious was more sophisticated to play with than Bud
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Pocket and groove are more important than speed.
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It is hard to find a player who can play up tempo and keep you wanting to keep listening for more. As mentioned above John, Paco, & Al, while great players I admit, do nothing for me. Joe and Niels together, while they are some of my favorite players, do get tiring to listen to pretty quick sometimes on up tempos with scales flying with reckless disregard at points.
Most players that play super fast tempos usually do not sound very musical or original, as noted. But their is one player to me that can do this. Jim Hall has said that this man not only had a profound influence on him musically but personally as well. He is Tal Farlow. No matter what tempo I cannot stop going back for more and listening in awe at his technique, ideas, and musicality.
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I don't see anything wrong with praising someone's strengths and pointing out their weaknesses, in fact I can think of no better approach for a critic to take. You and I enjoy Jim Hall's playing, but it certainly isn't everyone's cup of tea - even I find it overly laid back quite often, and occasionally bordering on soporific. If a reader were looking for something else, such a critic would be doing him a favour, and it isn't as though there were anything untrue being said. Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65
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Originally Posted by fep
This is exactly the piece the comes to mind when people talk about Jim Hall as not being able to play fast. This and "Waltz New" from his Artist House CD with Red Mitchell.
I read somewhere that Jim himself is the first person to say he doesn't play fast.
The thing with Jim Hall , for me IMHO, is that some of his stuff is just so freakin' good (like the Live album) and others are kind of so-so.
It might be sacrelidge to say it but I'm not that thrilled with his duo album with Pat M. To me it never 'heats up'
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If true (I have no reason to doubt you), then congratulations! Listening to Jim as a sleep aid is a heck of a lot cheaper than something like Ambient, and no nasty side effects! Originally Posted by JohnRoss
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Do any of you guys know who Gary Larson, whom the tune "whistle stop" Jim composed is about? If it's about the Gary Larson from the Farside comic strip, it seems to fit, because it's a whimsical tune
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Yeah, same Gary. He plays jazz guitar too. I think he's friends with Bill Frisell as well.
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Jim is the best period (iMHO)
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Gary did the cover to Jim's book "Exploring Jazz Guitar". Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65
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Originally Posted by Bill C
okay, now it makes sense. Some of the other tributes to painters, I am really not familiar with Matisse's work or Miro's work, so I can't understand fully the shapes of the tunes
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And "something special" cover? Originally Posted by Bill C
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transcribing a little jim hall is usually enough to silence any detractors!
truth is, jim's not a fast player by the standards of some, but i've never heard him in an environment where he wasn't fast enough to hang. That's as fast as you need to be.
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That's it, I'm going to say it here, I'm going to criticize Jim Hall: his playing is just too tasty!
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i have that album. and i remember that tune scrapple from the apple. he quoted part of parker's solo in it if i remember correctly. haven't heard it in a while. honestly? not my favorite Hall performance. gotta say it. sounds a little sloppy in parts.
he plays with taste, not virtuosity. that has been his calling card since the '50s.
i think his playing on Concierto is brilliant.
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Now I want to get his album where he play "Ruby, My Dear," a favorite tune of mine
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I read somewhere that Jim himself is the first person to say he doesn't play fast.
Or loud. JH is a pretty quiet player but manages to have fantastic dynamics. Hmm...
=-) PJ
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