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Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
Monk had a few brushes with the law over drugs, and he was almost certainly pathologically bipolar at the very least. I’d love to know how treatment and sobriety would have affected creativity like his. Many musicians and other artists over the years have claimed that they couldn’t have been as creative without substance abuse. But critical assessment of their work often suggests otherwise.
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10-23-2021 08:35 AM
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10-23-2021, 08:41 AM #52Dutchbopper GuestOriginally Posted by kris
DB
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I don’t think Monk is like other bop players at all. There are things in common. Both he and Bud played the whole tone scale a lot for instance, but he really was his own thing.
most players of pretty much any instrument in the 1950s sounded broadly akin because they were all influenced by Bird.
This is something Cootie Williams commented on (although I think it’s unfair to say they sounded ‘the same.’) Everyone adopted the bop way of building lines, and older traditions like improvising on the melody, playing around with tone colour (like Cootie) went out of fashion by and large.
And then there was Monk doing his own thing.
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I don’t think Monk is like other bop players at all. There are things in common. Both he and Bud played the whole tone scale a lot for instance, but he really was his own thing. Monk is his own strand of progressive jazz growing out of the swing era music at right angles to Bird. Sometimes I feel he has more in common with James P Johnson, his teacher. All those sixths and tenths…. But his unique timing… no one plays like that…
most players of pretty much any instrument in the 1950s sounded broadly akin because they were all influenced by Bird.
This is something Cootie Williams commented on (although I think it’s unfair to say they sounded ‘the same.’) Everyone adopted the bop way of building lines, and older traditions like improvising on the melody, playing around with tone colour (like Cootie) went out of fashion by and large.
And then there was Monk doing his own thing.
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Monk just sat up there, staring at them for a few minutes, then slammed the piano closed and yelled at them, "My dick is bigger than yours!"
That was the end of the concert.
I never found that in any of the books written about him. Probably circulated among musicians, like Bill Crow's stories.
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Barry Harris once told a story of when he was living with Monk in Pannonica De Koenigswarter's house in Weehawken. Barry came out of his room and heard some burning 8th note lines on "Indiana" (in the bebop style) coming from Monk's room. He thought "this couldn't be Monk"- both because 1. It didn't sound like his style
2. he hadn't heard Monk practice much since he had been living with him.
He opens the door to Monk's room and was surprised to see it was him playing all along! Monk stopped playing, turned around, and said "shhh... don't tell anybody."
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What!
See I know he had the skill. There's just no recording of it lol.
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Originally Posted by 2fivefun
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Originally Posted by 2fivefun
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10-25-2021, 07:33 PM #60joelf GuestOriginally Posted by mr. beaumont
But musically they were different animals completely, so I wouldn't agree that he was 20 years ahead. I think he seemed to look both forward and back. I hear a LOT of the stride-era 'ivory ticklers' in Monk---especially solo. And in groups I've heard him play a stride left hand on a ballad. Never heard Bud do that.
I think what he did for bebop (other than being a major composer) was be an early architect, in harmony (like with the 'minor 6th with the 6th in the bass---later called Min 7 b 5 or half-diminished---for one thing) and in rhythm. He was there at the beginning, pace-setting.
And FWIW, whatever his personal beefs about not being acknowledged or hired, those guys---Gillespie; Parker, et. al---all had deep respect for him...Last edited by joelf; 10-26-2021 at 06:06 AM.
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10-25-2021, 08:03 PM #61joelf GuestOriginally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
The elders I hung out with in the '80s---who taught me much about the music and the life---many were using and boozing. For one thing they were black, and had to live with pressures and hatreds I'll never know. To be a black jazz musician, even as late as in the '80s, was to be a double outcast. Add to that the level of creativity they were at---heads always going---you can understand that a buffer was sought.
I never considered any of these guys mentally ill---not that I'm a qualified psychiatrist to make those calls. What I did see was people with the purest hearts I've ever known, people who lived for the art and the heart. They WERE intense, and with intense people sparks do fly. I witnessed a few ugly scenes---and apologies all around afterwards. It's the sensitivity that comes with the territory. It's hard to handle sometimes, and combined with poverty and rejection by society at large, escapes are sought. True, music itself is very therapeutic, but some very intense people feel they need more. You can't play 24 hours a day, and for many gigs were hard to come by.
I mean, yeah, there were a few wackos, but on balance not THAT many more than what I've observed in society generally. I remember a great friend of mine back then, Clarence 'C'. Sharpe's answer when I asked about the 'legendary Hassan'. I'd heard he was crazy, and knew he knew him, them both being from Philly. C. thought a minute and said 'Well, he was a bit eccentric'.
That's as good an insight as I've heard---and I say 'So what?' We need a little eccentricity, as long as it's not harming anyone...Last edited by joelf; 10-25-2021 at 09:34 PM.
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10-25-2021, 10:30 PM #62joelf Guest
All Ellington (1st half), solo in '69. Caravan is a standout.
That inimitable stride left hand!:
Last edited by joelf; 10-25-2021 at 10:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by joelf
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10-26-2021, 05:55 AM #64joelf GuestOriginally Posted by Christian Miller
I'm going to have to review early chapters of Kelley's book. I seem to remember that Monk went to some rent parties where he played and some older stride masters heard and encouraged him. I wouldn't be surprised...
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Originally Posted by joelf
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Mary Lou Williams was his mentor and teacher.
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According to Kelley’s book, the biggest early influence on Monk was a piano teacher he had called Alberta Simmons, who taught him stride piano in the style of Eubie Blake, James P. Johnson and Fats Waller.
Prior to that he had piano lessons with a classical teacher and apparently became quite adept at playing Chopin, Rachmaninov, etc.
Later he joined a touring church show as their pianist, and was influenced by black gospel music.
When he returned to New York after the gospel tour, he began to frequent informal jam sessions at local houses at which pianists like Willie the Lion Smith, James P. Johnson and Art Tatum were present, and he would often play for them.
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10-26-2021, 07:47 AM #68joelf GuestOriginally Posted by Christian Miller
Turned out that one of the guys was Monk. It was the first time I'd ever heard him. But get this!...The other guys were Willie 'The Lion' Smith, a guy named Gippy, and James P. Johnson! Willie...called Monk over to the piano bench....was kind of on his case. He said "Play your thing, man." And (Monk) sat down and played a standard....could have been Tea For Two. He was playing more like Art Tatum then. I think he responded to the older musicians who told him to do his own thing.
Monk told Billy Taylor 'that Willie "The Lion" and those guys that had shown him respect had...empowered him...to do his own thing. That he could do it and that his own thing was worth doing. It doesn't sound like Tatum. It doesn't sound like "The Lion". It doesn't sound like anyone but Monk and this is what he wanted to do. He had the confidence. The way he does things is the way HE wanted to do them'...
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An unpopular opinion, but after listening to the entire Monk catalog for years, I still enjoy his solo recordings on the Black Lion label released as the London Collection very, very much. They were his last sessions, and there are moments where he has to pause to remember things, but it is here and in his trio recordings that I think he is at his most real. That said, I love everything he ever did, especially things like his comping on tunes like Rhythm-a-Ning (there is one live version in particular that is spectacular). But listening to him bang out Trinkle Tinkle solo is such a joyful listening experience, and the same for his versions of standards like Nice Work If You Can Get It. He was a visionary, but also an old soul.
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