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I have two kind of contradictory thoughts about this. On the one hand, yes, of course he was a bebop musician. He was part of the scene, close with several of the key bop figures (especially Bud Powell), same age as Dizzy. His right hand was full of bebop syncopation, asymmetric cross-the-barline phrases, and altered tones and upper partials, and his tunes were a key part of the bop repertoire.
On the other hand he was highly idiosyncratic musically, his left hand was stride, and he didn't engage in the kind of uptempo technical pyrotechnics stereotypical of bop. You can hear the commonalities between him and Bud Powell, but the differences are starker.
I think the real answer to this is that genres don't have sharp boundaries,
their defining features are mostly identified retrospectively and selectively, and the genres within genres are glossed over. In 1949, bebop was 20 or so guys in Harlem and on 52nd St. consciously trying not to sound like the big bands they apprenticed in, in somewhat different ways (e.g., Bird and Dizzy sound quite different). In 1989, it was army of Bird and Bud Powell clones.
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10-21-2021 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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'Crazy' is a casual everyday term, not a clinical one. He was bipolar and almost certainly medically wrongly treated. He didn't play bebop, that's the point of the thread, but because of the disconnect in his personality he tended to play disconnected music which was called bebop.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Absolutely, that's a good interview.
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Originally Posted by Litterick
Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Originally Posted by kris
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Treatment of mental illness has ALWAYS sucked, and even today (though much better) it still sucks for too many people.
(Indigenous cultures perhaps being somewhat excepted, having read recently a fair amount about native American "medicine men" and shamans.)
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I think his drug use had a lot to do with precipitating his mental illness.
Monk isn't the definition of bebop lol. If we agree on the definition of bebop as the rhythmic 8th note single note line approach. If you want to try to revise bebop as something else then fine. Monk participated in the community during bebop and contributed to the music, but he wasn't bebop.
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Originally Posted by Clint 55
I think that definition of bebop is overly simplified. In any event, it's not a set of time signatures, it's an attitude.
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
I don't subscribe to the idea that any genre is an attitude. Parker/Powell lines and that language is the definition of bebop. Other ways of playing were involved in bebop, but I think that's the main characterization. For example, I really like the sensitivity in the bebop players' slower playing such as Tadd Dameron's If you could see me now. However, that isn't the definition of bebop.
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Monk was quoted as having the strategy that you had to do something different to stand out as a jazz musician.
Yet he never played 'free' jazz, no matter how dissonant his playing got. He was always aware of the form, time, and harmonic structure of the tune he was playing. In fact he was completely repulsed when he heard Ornette Coleman's playing.
He always swung when he played. He had a great sense of contrast when he used a great 8th note-type player like Charlie Rouse, so he could propel the music with his wildly syncopated and dissonant comping, while Rouse swung in his own way.
On a less pronounced level, Eddie Costa would do the same thing with Tal Farlow's playing.
The press was responsible for giving him the nickname of "The High Priest of Bebop".
Jimmy Raney didn't consider Monk a bebop player.
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Originally Posted by sgcim
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The mindset of Thelonious Monk seems elusive, but I've always really enjoyed this recording of Monk practicing a number.
You get to hear him try out ideas and work on getting the timing/accents just right for the effects he is going for. It's rare to hear the masters working on their craft; we usually only get to know them through their professionally released recordings and stage performances.
I hope someone out there hasn't heard this yet and gets some of the same enjoyment out of it:
Last edited by Endaro; 10-25-2021 at 04:20 PM.
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Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
We, more than most, should be well informed and well intentioned regarding emotional and other manifestations of mental illness. The data clearly show that mental illness is a common problem among musicians. From a 2018 study out of Princeton comes the very upsetting information that
“……about 73 percent of musicians report symptoms of mental illness. And among those with mental illness, 50 percent will battle addiction over the course of their lives.”
The data show that about 10% of Americans with suspected or diagnosed mental illness receive any evaluation and treatment for it in the US. Most (along with most of the people with whom they interact) deny, ignore, and/or otherwise pretend there’s no problem. Many seek relief in drugs of some kind, and alcohol is by far the most abused. But if you look at the data, alcohol abuse is just as prevalent among those of us deemed normal. Based purely on data, we may be people in glass houses throwing stones.
If there are data showing that “most mentally ill people use drugs”, please provide them. Hopefully, they will be stratified into therapeutic and non-medical cohorts since the use of prescribed therapeutics is laudable. FWIW, I have no connection with any person or part of the mental health community. But like the rest of you, I’ve known and performed with some seriously ill players - and they deserve help, not generalizations.
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Originally Posted by Endaro
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Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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Let's not forget when it was and how long ago.
All jazz musicians have played or will play his compositions.
Perhaps in these compositions there are be-bop phrases hidden.
This is the genius of an artist.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
I have well over 1000 CDs.
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Originally Posted by Clint 55
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Does it matter if he was playing be-bop or not?
After all, he played with musicians who played be-bop.
did he play there because there were no pianists?
I do not think so.
He was just different.
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Part 1: The Connection Between Substance Use Disorders and Mental Illness | National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA)
What I said was a bit nonspecific though. I certainly didn’t mean it as pejorative. It is my observation as a medical provider that persons with poorly controlled mental health disorders have a very high rate of concurrent substance abuse. That’s not to say that so many of the people around us who live with mental health disorders and have successful lives use drugs regularly.
I have a lot of personal experience with MHD. My son has a form of bipolar disorder. My ex-wife was treated for depression. Several of my children have been on medications for depression/anxiety. A close friend of mine in college had a psychotic break leading to a diagnosis of schizophrenia, leading him to drop out of school.
I did a lot of research into the link between substance abuse and MHD when my son was first diagnosed with BPD. He was a frequent marijuana user and was taking prescribed medication for ADHD. It still remains inconclusive in the medical literature whether marijuana and Ritalin (taken at medicinal doses) can trigger psychosis. It is still unclear if other substances can lead to a chronic MHD in persons who were not otherwise predisposed to such.
(Yes we all know of people who “took too much acid” or speed or cocaine and went “crazy”, e.g., Peter Green and Syd Barrett.) That doesn’t prove to a scientific degree of certainty that they are the sole CAUSE of chronic psychosis or serious MHD.)
Certain recreational drugs may actually ameliorate symptoms of mental health disorders. There are a lot of people with undiagnosed or untreated MHDs who use marijuana regularly for instance and are able to function quite well.
Anyway, a long-winded answer, but yes our views on mental health and treatment of the mentally ill leave a lot to be desired. Something similar could be said about substance use. Other cultures, particularly indigenous cultures and some ancient cultures, do a much better job of allowing persons with different ways of perceiving the world to navigate in society, and they often have a very permissive view of medicinal or ritual use of mind-altering substances. That would not be true of mainstream 20th Century America for sure.
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If You asked Monk himself, he would answer that he INVENTED the bebop! He showed Bud Powell all the secrets.
He saw bebop as a new way of handling the melody and harmony, not playing 8th notes or using drugs.
He always insisted that the solos must raise from the melody of the song, not from scales or something like that. I remember that he even shouted some new sax player during the gig that "play the melody!" (I might not remember this correctly, but the idea is that).
The Robin Kelley bookThelonious Monk: The Life and Times of an American Original is excellent work about Monk's persona, music, and thinking. It is also a good guide in what happened in jazz in 30s–80s.
Adam Neely has made an interesting dive in the Monk's famous advice:
1979 L5 CES - Sweden ~$7k
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