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Mary Osborne doesn't get enough credit. She wasn't just a Charlie Christian clone but a great, swinging creative jazz guitarist at a time when women had a big uphill climb for acceptance.
Photos removed for copyright: search NYPL digital collections to see 'em.
Last edited by AndyV; 06-25-2021 at 02:46 PM.
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05-31-2021 01:18 PM
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Check out the "Cats Versus Chicks" album and listen to her hanging with Tal Farlow. IMHO she conceded nothing there. A guitarist with great swing and chops.
As for a "time when women had a big uphill climb for acceptance," is that time past yet? There are some women in jazz who are very talented but few of them- other than vocalists- seem to be accepted as top-drawer musicians and instead seem to still be seen as novelties. Maybe I am being more pessimistic than is warranted.
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Originally Posted by Cunamara
cool pics, I wonder if that's a special order blonde ES-150 or she had it refinished to blonde.
I've had this record for a very long time......I'll follow you Farlow
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Great record! And she could sing!
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from the cats vs chicks session...
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I recently read that she was close friends with Billie Holiday, and Lady day helped her out quite a bit.
I didn't know that she released so many albums. There are at least four on you tube.
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She played a Barker guitar too.
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She was the “house” guitar at CBS in NY when Johnny Smith was at ABC and Bucky Pizzarelli was at NBC. The staff band played a morning show over the 10 years in which I went from kindergarten to high school. I read about her in Downbeat when I was about 12 and that show was going strong. My family had a serious Stromberg Carlson “hifi” with a great radio, and my father had a 75’ antenna tower built at the corner of our property so we could get radio and TV from Philly & NY. I was able to get decent enough reception on WCBS to hear the Jack Sterling Show whenever I was home on a weekday morning. I used to sit there practicing while hoping I’d get to hear her and the band (the show was of absolutely no interest to a 13 year old). And I did get to hear her more than a few times.
As a kid, I never understood why she endorsed Gretsch and played a White Falcon after so many great guitars. But she could hold her own with any band on any music and played on many recordings for some legendary leaders. Fortunately, they didn’t break the mold. We have many excellent female players to enjoy today, e.g. Mimi Fox (one of my favorite players - and she’d be so in a body of any gender, shape, and condition!). But Mary Osborne was an early guitar hero of mine.
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More info:
Mary Osborne | Vintage Guitar(R) magazine
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Originally Posted by Cunamara
They’d started with contact pickups and amplifiers (sold together) and rapidly moved to purpose built electrics with a 6 string lap steel and the ES-150. They sold a lot of house branded guitars through Montgomery Ward and Spiegel, and began supplying ES150s with pressed (rather than carved) solid tops when demand rose. I don’t know if they shifted all production of ES-150s from carved to pressed tops, but both could still be called “solid spruce tops” - what differed was the way they were shaped. I have no idea if they used graduated dies to effect any gradation of thickness in the pressed tops, but I’d bet they did not. If that’s correct, the carved tops must have sounded much better acoustically.
Read that GP article with a grain of salt. But from what I remember of all the reading and research on guitars and players that I did as a kid, it’s generally correct. I even spent a day at the Gretsch headquarters in Chicago in ‘62 or ‘63 when my parents took me to Chicago so my father could attend a convention. They let me play every model they had plus some prototypes, historical pieces etc. And I came home with enough books, pamphlets, catalogs etc to fill the back seat of our car with barely enough room for me. I probably knew every Gibson, Gretsch, Guild and Fender catalog by heart!
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Speaking of not entirely accurate, the Gibson L-5 was introduced in 1922, Super 400 in '34 and prewar ES-150s had carved tops.
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Originally Posted by wintermoon
As for when the 400 actually entered the market, there were no documented Super 400s made in 1934. Per Van Hoose’s research (see page 169 of his book, “The Gibson Super 400”), the first documented production of a first generation 400 was in 1935 - they made 63 that year and 29 in 1936. Gibson kept pretty good records, so as far as I’m concerned, the numbers say there were no 1934 Super 400s. Again, I could be wrong - we’re not competing in the College Bowl here. And if there’s documentation beyond what Van Hoose found, I’d love to know about it.
I can’t find the articles I stored away years ago about Gibsons made for contract customers, of whom Montgomery Ward and Spiegel were two of their largest. But I’m as certain as I can reasonably be that I’ve read in more than one reputable source that the tops on the contract unlabeled ES-150s that they supplied for private branding had pressed solid spruce tops. Gibson was on the verge of bankruptcy in 1934, and it was the contract business that saved them. I did find one article by George Gruhn about this - here’s a pertinent quote:
“Gibson scholar Andre Duchossoir has pointed out that the interest of companies like Montgomery Ward and Spiegel in selling electric Spanish guitars probably pushed Gibson into production of the electric Spanish guitar. Gibson had been in serious development of an electric guitar pickup for lap steels since 1935, but then after creating their first bar magnet style pickup failed to follow through with a production Spanish neck model in which the pickup was standard equipment. Pressure from Montgomery Ward and Spiegel evidently changed their minds and the first production batch of electric Spanish guitars for Montgomery Ward (model #1270) was followed quickly by the first production batch of Gibson ES-150’s.”
The 1270 was a rebranded ES-150, and unless I’m suffering from early dementia, I recall reading that because Gibson had laid off so many workers and they needed the contract business to survive, they started stamping tops for the 1270. I neither know nor said I know that they used them on any Gibson-branded ES-150s. But given Gibson’s historic willingness to make unannounced (and often undisclosed) changes in mid-production, I’d be a bit surprised if they didn’t use less costly and less labor intensive pressed tops when strained financially, at least until they recovered enough of a resource base to resume paying craftspeople to carve again. In 1934/35, Gibson was on the verge of disappearing. I have little doubt that they took whatever shortcuts they could to survive (and still would).
I apologize again for causing any distress. I’m always happy to learn more, and I try to base my opinions and conclusions on facts and data. Next time, I’ll have 2 espressos before jumping in. Best regards to all -
David
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No big deal, just having fun.
btw 1st Super was shipped in Sept '35 iirc and I believe the 1st L-5 in '23
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Originally Posted by wintermoon
Fast forward a few months. The estimate from Gibson through Wurlitzer Music in Boston was more than the resale value of my 175DN, and I was still using my roommate’s turntable. After adding the cost of a pickup and realizing that the L5 wouldn’t be very useful for the weddings etc I was playing to pay for school and living, I reluctantly gave up that dream and sold it for enough to buy a new turntable and take my girlfriend out for a few nice dinners.
The next L5 I bought was new in 1969. I owned it for 5 days - it was a tribute to how far down the rabbit hole Gibson would go for money in times of stress (spelled Norlin, this time). There was a visible splice in the binding. The finish was applied with an insecticide sprayer, and the artist who finished it must have trained at a discount auto body shop. The wood under the fingerboard extension was bare. Etc etc etc. The dealer took it back without complaint.
Maybe Mary Osborne didn’t just sell her soul and that White Falcon wasn’t so bad after all.
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A few other decent guitarists have used Gretch guitars. Van Eps and Atkins come to mind...
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Originally Posted by sgosnell
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What other instrument were you thinking of? Van Eps played that Gretsch seven string until he died (it was the prototype, however, rather than a production instrument I believe). He really only had two primary instruments throughout his performing career after 1934: an Epiphone Deluxe which was initially a six string and then converted to seven string, which he used until the Gretsch was available. He referred to the Epi as the best instrument he ever played. He was very involved with and supportive of that company until Epi Strathpoulos died.
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Originally Posted by Cunamara
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George machined his own bridge tops from brass among other things. And built a working scale model steam locomotive (because he heard someone say it couldn't be done). Not to mention being a virtuoso banjoist and then guitarist, inventing the 7 string guitar, writing the Harmonic Mechanism books, helping design and build classified military tech during WWII, designing and building an ultraprecise phonograph tonearm with near-perfect cartridge alignment across the LP, etc. He was close to being a polymath.
Yikes, massive thread drift! I am sorry for that, this had nothing to do with Mary Osborne who had her own skillset with guitar design, etc., later in life in addition to her musical career.
Got off on a tangent via Gretsch. I have never played one, as far as I can remember. They seem to be regarded as a third tier guitar in the jazz community. Never having examined one, I'm not entirely sure why. They were certainly widely used and by players of some repute.
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Mary Osborne is one my favorites. I particularly love this version of "Rose Room" to hear her play at two different tempos. And that tone is so fat.
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It would appear that Mary is using a Gibson ES 150, in the early photos.
The Gibson ES 150N does not exist in natural color.
But there are knobs from the Gibson ES 150.
The tailpiece and pickguard are those of a Gibson ES 150.
The handle with the dot inserts is from Gibson ES 150.
Did Gibson build an Es 150 Color Natural?Mystery.
I ask the Gibson experts.
Thank you in advance.
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Gibson built a custom ES250 in natural for Charlie Christian. Perhaps they built a custom ES150 for Mary. There were, and are, lots of custom guitars from Gibson that never made it into any catalogs.
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Originally Posted by sgosnell
The Gibson Es 150 Natural is very beautiful.
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I know that pic of Osborne and her prewar 150 and wondered if it was refinished to blonde.
The only "custom" ES-250 I'm aware of was Alvin's Reys guitar that was modified to 2 CC pickups.
Charlie's 250 was a standard blonde model not custom made.
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All I know is what I read on the interwebz.
Ed Cherry at Small Last Night (6/3/24)
Today, 09:07 PM in The Players