elonora strino

[sgcim]

Hi, SG,
I'll try to be brief.
Paragraph 1: No Classical musician of any talent plays any piece "as written." The notes are merely a framework/pathway for the Artist's vision where dynamics, rubato, accent, nuance, and personality stamp the music. And, no one performs a piece of music exactly the same each time it is played. This is why, for example, Kempff and Rubenstein perform Beethoven in clearly different ways. This "stamp" of ownership is similar but not exactly the same as spontaneous improvisation.
Paragraph 2: Don't believe for a moment that when a Jazzer plays a set piece that he/she does not rely on his/her own musical cliches and plays everything as if it were fresh the first time. This is how we distinguish many players from the crowd and they ALL have them. Creating music spontaneously is the exception not the norm for most Jazzers. But, when it does happen, it is something special.
Paragraph 3: The Kessel/Williams statement does not hold water. Williams does not exactly play a performance piece the same each time and Kessel certainly does rely on his bag of cliches and perhaps, on occasion, throws in a new twist. No one is 100% mechanical; no one is 100% spontaneous. It defies human nature and how the mind works.
Finally, this whole concept of "total spontaneity" with Jazzers is overblown and, with reservation, largely mythological. A better way to visualize what we do on a professional level is that when we approach a piece of music we want to put OUR name on it. Period. And, contrary to Jazz mysticism, it relies heavily on cliches and ideas we've worked out in advance with hopefully a few lines thrown in from the gods.

Play live . . . Marinero

This is ridiculous. Everyone knows classical musicians interpret nuances- like dynamics, articulations, etc..., but they play the same freaking notes that the composer writes every time they play a piece. Try to get them to play jazz without any composed music.
And everyone knows jazz musicians have a vocabulary that they repeat on improvisations. I'm not talking about 'jazz mysticism' here.
Try to get a classical musician to improvise a jazz solo. Ithzak Perlman tried. It was laughable, as are your comments.Leonard Bernstein used to get lost on a BLUES!!!. Since you're such an expert on classical music and jazz, why don't you post yourself improvising several jazz choruses, and then playing Walton's Bagatelles mister expert. You said you haven't played professionally in almost 50 years, and you come on like you're some type of an expert on jazz. In graduate school, I never met one classical musician who could play a jazz chorus convincingly, who hadn't spent several years playing jazz. Their attempts were laughable, as is your ridiculous nonsense about "TOTAL SPONTANEITY." Total spontaneity is a fetish of various avant garde players.
Using Barney Kessel as an example of a jazz musician who doesn't improvise, and just plays the same cliched solos is as far as what BK did as possible. Did you ever transcribe a BK solo, and play it?
I'm talking about PROCESS. The process of playing jazz is something completely different than the PROCESS of playing a piece that has been written for them by a composer. Virgil Thompson called classical musicians as EXECUTANTS. They execute what the composer writes for them to play.Without a sheet of notes in a specific order, they're lost. Jazz musicians create an order of notes, regardless of whether it includes notes from their vocabulary.
Since you're interested in only playing solo guitar,and not jazz improvisation, you might be more at home posting on rec.classicalguitarpayers.com, and stop writing the nonsense you've posted here. Or go back to your business career; you've apparently got too much time on your hands.
Play live- when was the last time you did it before the pandemic, 1973?

[wintermoon]

^^^
That's about it. He didn't like to record jazz. He was a club musician.
You're not really famous until your music in is the Fallout series;

Of course Fallout: New Vegas was the best.

Ever think you're just stuck in a video game in another dimension somewhere..

Stevebol, not to get too sidetracked but w/all due respect, if you're gonna post a Jive Bombers tune, it's gotta be this one...

[Litterick]

That time William Walton came into the bar, looking for a fight...

[docsteve]

This is ridiculous.
....Since you're such an expert on classical music and jazz, why don't you post yourself improvising several jazz choruses, and then playing Walton's Bagatelles mister expert. You said you haven't played professionally in almost 50 years, and you come on like you're some type of an expert on jazz.
Play live- when was the last time you did it before the pandemic, 1973?

Oh come on, y‘all. A good listener is entitled to their opinion even if they haven‘t played a single note in their lives. It is called criticism. Where are Leonard Feather‘s hit records? Ira Gitler‘s? John Peel‘s? Stanley Crouch‘s?

We have a saying that you don’t need to be a pig to talk about pork chops...


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[Lobomov]

...

[Hep To The Jive]

We have a saying that you don’t need to be a pig to talk about pork chops...


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Yea, but the pigs are usually the harshest critics.

[djg]

We have a saying that you don’t need to be a pig to talk about pork chops...

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but at least you shouldn't be a vegan

[Marinero]

"You said you haven't played professionally in almost 50 years," sgcim


Hi, S,
You obviously read what you wanted into my words despite what I have clearly written previously. What I have said consistently in my posts is that I left playing in ensembles full-time(R@B/Jazz-Rock/Funk) in the late 70's(sax/flute/guitar) but have continued to play professionally part-time as a solo(Classical/Jazz on Classical guitar) until Covid--do the math. I was not willing to starve being paid garage band wages for a performance and not working for weeks at a time when I had other talents that allowed me to live a good life. I did, however, awaken my Gibson ES125TC from a 40 plus year sleep well over a year ago and have worked it into my daily playing with much pleasure.That's what I've consistently said. Period. I would, however, agree with your observation that most Classical musicians cannot play Jazz convincingly. However, creativity in the Classical idiom is not the same as Jazz but is ,nonetheless, a special gift. To diminish the talents of Segovia, Rubenstein, Kempff, Heifitz, Pablo Casals, Brendel, etc. is patently ignorant and no comparison you've created in your limited perspective to Jazz/Classical Music holds water. Sadly, your words are tainted by your personal animus for me and pathetically mimic the tired, old phrases I've heard for years from delusional crusaders and purveyors of THE TRUTH like yourself concerning music: arrogant, indignant, cliche-ridden, and patently foolish. You own it.

Play live . . . Marinero

P.S. Here's a philosophical question for a self-described academic like yourself: Does Mount Kilimanjaro really exist if you haven't seen it in person? M

[sgcim]

Oh come on, y‘all. A good listener is entitled to their opinion even if they haven‘t played a single note in their lives. It is called criticism. Where are Leonard Feather‘s hit records? Ira Gitler‘s? John Peel‘s? Stanley Crouch‘s?

We have a saying that you don’t need to be a pig to talk about pork chops...


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Leonard Feather was a pianist and a songwriter (He wrote "I Remember Bird") Stanley Crouch was a jazz drummer. Ira Gitler was a talented lyricist ( His best-known contribution in that vein would be the lyrics to a Horace Silver tune, “Filthy McNasty,” recorded by Eddie Jefferson in 1968), and John Peel didn't even feature Nick Drake( AFAIK) .

[sgcim]

[QUOTE=Marinero;1085685]"You said you haven't played professionally in almost 50 years," sgcim


Hi, S,
You obviously read what you wanted into my words despite what I have clearly written previously. What I have said consistently in my posts is that I left playing in ensembles full-time(R@B/Jazz-Rock/Funk) in the late 70's(sax/flute/guitar) but have continued to play professionally part-time as a solo(Classical/Jazz on Classical guitar) until Covid--do the math. I was not willing to starve being paid garage band wages for a performance and not working for weeks at a time when I had other talents that allowed me to live a good life. I did, however, awaken my Gibson ES125TC from a 40 plus year sleep well over a year ago and have worked it into my daily playing with much pleasure.That's what I've consistently said. Period. I would, however, agree with your observation that most Classical musicians cannot play Jazz convincingly. However, creativity in the Classical idiom is not the same as Jazz but is ,nonetheless, a special gift. To diminish the talents of Segovia, Rubenstein, Kempff, Heifitz, Pablo Casals, Brendel, etc. is patently ignorant and no comparison you've created in your limited perspective to Jazz/Classical Music holds water. Sadly, your words are tainted by your personal animus for me and pathetically mimic the tired, old phrases I've heard for years from delusional crusaders and purveyors of THE TRUTH like yourself concerning music: arrogant, indignant, cliche-ridden, and patently foolish. You own it.

Play live . . . Marinero

P.S. Here's a philosophical question for a self-described academic like yourself: Does Mount Kilimanjaro really exist if you haven't seen it in person?
Where did I diminish the talents of Segovia, Rubenstein, Kempff, Heifitz, Pablo Casals and Brendel? They are some of music's greatest artists, IMHO.
I was just saying that IMPROVISING jazz, and performing classical music are two different things.
You're the one who was diminishing the talent of Barney Kessel.
It's a shame you had to resort to personal attacks, but it seems you have a chip on your shoulder about something or other. I can't have a mature discussion when things go down to that level. I suggest we put each other on ignore.

[Lobomov]

You're the one who was diminishing the talent of Barney Kessel.

Here is how I've found piece with this forum during this Christmas

Music is a question of taste .. Personal subjective taste .. If someone doesn't like what everybody else likes then that is their right. Off course it would be cool to have discussions about why someone prefers this to that .. but that is not always possible.

[wolflen]

Stevebol, not to get too sidetracked but w/all due respect, if you're gonna post a Jive Bombers tune, it's gotta be this one...

ahhh yes...life is just a bowl of cherrys

[Stevebol]

These days I dress like a hobo because my clothes don't fit anymore. I started walking so as not to get too sedentary.
At least in my experience, girls do like the bad boys not guys dressed like hobos.

[Marinero]

"You're the one who was diminishing the talent of Barney Kessel." sgcim

Hi, S,
I have never criticized BK. I think he was a fine player. However, I have no personal animus against you or anyone else. I do, however, believe that contrary opinions are the strength of any Forum. Perhaps, when we believe strongly about something we can be easily tempted to attack the perpetrator. If I have, in your opinion, been unfair in my remarks I sincerely apologize. After all, there are not many of us left who carry the flickering torch of quality music performance.
Happy Holidays and Play live . . . Marinero

[aquin43]

Lovely.

Great, but it looks as if the video was put together from at least two performances - vide the red thing under the strings on the guitar's head.

[BickertRules]

Great, but it looks as if the video was put together from at least two performances - vide the red thing under the strings on the guitar's head.

the biggest scandal since Milli Vanilli...

[AKA]

Have you noticed, in videos of herd animals, there's a constant bumping, kicking and such carrying on amongst the herd - even as they collectively move along, feeding together. Generally none seem to get hurt except ever so often there's a fierce battle between the apparent leader and another who wants to be considered in that same capacity. Then there's a banging of heads for a while - till inevitably one get's overcome by the other or they get tired and move along.

It's sometimes amusing, but always sad, to witness the inevitable pokes, jabs and name-calling that breaks out here about practically any and everything. However I guess, in the the big picture, it's normal for us to behave this way.

To the Herd!

AKA

[Stevebol]

hahaha, too busy? Yea, sure too busy playing gigs, working.

That's not nice. No one is doing anything where I live. It could take years for recovery. We have to take in people who get priced out of California and coronavirus is getting a lot worse here.
I can think of some things more important than my 'career' in music right now.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

[Hep To The Jive]

That's not nice. No one is doing anything where I live. It could take years for recovery. We have to take in people who get priced out of California and coronavirus is getting a lot worse here.
I can think of some things more important than my 'career' in music right now.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

What's not nice? If she can work? I don't know, I mean in general, maybe not now, but sure before, and will after. Musicians like her are busy working, as they should be. Maybe not right now in Italy, if it makes you feel better.

But where I live, people are busy working already, tons of gigs, not a bad time to think of career in music at all. We are all enjoying it. Sorry I rub it in. I'm not a nice guy lol.

[Stevebol]

What's not nice? If she can work? I don't know, I mean in general, maybe not now, but sure before, and will after. Musicians like her are busy working, as they should be. Maybe not right now in Italy, if it makes you feel better.

But where I live, people are busy working already, tons of gigs, not a bad time to think of career in music at all. We are all enjoying it. Sorry I rub it in. I'm not a nice guy lol.

That's great to hear. I wouldn't gig outside the US again. I'm a home boy now.

[Hep To The Jive]

That's great to hear. I wouldn't gig outside the US again. I'm a home boy now.

Dig. It's not like we can choose anymore. I'm just happened to be stuck here. Not complaining, could be worse. Can't be home boy if don't have home.

[Litterick]

Here we go.

[Stevebol]

Let's not do this.

[dot75]

Leonard Feather was a pianist and a songwriter (He wrote "I Remember Bird") Stanley Crouch was a jazz drummer. Ira Gitler was a talented lyricist ( His best-known contribution in that vein would be the lyrics to a Horace Silver tune, “Filthy McNasty,” recorded by Eddie Jefferson in 1968), and John Peel didn't even feature Nick Drake( AFAIK) .

John Peel's on the video for Maggie May pretending to play Mandolin - does that count ?

[docsteve]

Let‘s not do this.


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