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  1. #1

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    Maybe you're interested .This could be fun. Finding out about Oscar Moore, Eddie Lang
    to name a few. I'm sure you all know interesting details about those great players and I
    am very nosy

    For the kick off here a few seconds with the maestro
    himself:


  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Simply magical.

  4. #3

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    Here's quite a gem from 1928: Eddie Lang's backing up Gladys Bentley



  5. #4

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    Al Casey, born 1915. He was swinging in and before Django' time.
    He played for ages in Fats Waller's Band.


  6. #5

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    Al Casey is criminally underrated

  7. #6

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    Btw this vid I did recently seems relevant:



    sorry about the distortion. Those guitars are loud.

    theres some good suggestions of players in the comments too

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    theres some good suggestions of players in the comments too
    Thanks for that great video. After an odyssee through a sea of different guitars I finally fell in love
    with a "Roundback Nylon".
    I love that sound and going to stick with it.


  9. #8

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  10. #9

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    1922...

    Dominic Nicholas Anthony Lucinese, known professionally as Nick Lucas, was an American jazz guitarist and singer. He was the first jazz guitarist to record as a soloist. His popularity during his lifetime came from his reputation as a singer. His signature song was "Tiptoe Through the Tulips".
    source: wikipedia


  11. #10

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    Andreas Oberg
    A lifelong guitar player, Andreas is known for his incredibly fast playing, innovative use of altered scales and harmony, “hot club gypsy style swing,” and deep knowledge of the fretboard. Benedetto Guitars


    Frank Vignola
    (born December 30, 1965) is an American jazz guitarist. He has played in the genres of swing, fusion, gypsy jazz, classical, and pop. Career. Vignola grew up on Long Island, New York. His father played accordion and banjo and his brother plays trumpet. When he was five, he picked up the guitar, learning from his father and from records. Wikipedia



  12. #11

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    Jimmy Rosenberg.

    Quote from Django Books.com:
    Guitar virtuoso Jimmy Rosenberg (Asten, 1980) was a world star but became addicted and entangled in his own life. He has hardly been seen in public in the last ten years. Soon he will be a grandfather for the second time. Because he can only see his grandchildren when he is clean, he retreats to a closed clinic. But he also wants to shine on the guitar one more time. "Why do they only care about you when you're famous?"

    If you do not know Jimmy Rosenberg's story yet, you should check out the famous documentary 'The father, the son & the talent' from Eindhoven-based Jeroen Berkvens from 2006: a gypsy jazz guitarist from De Peel (area in the Netherlands where Jimmy is from) causes furor from a young age. The world's best jazz guitarist gets an American contract and plays on the highest world stage. But 'the new Django Reinhardt' quickly gets into trouble. /Quote



  13. #12

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    Maybe somebody gets inspired...


  14. #13

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    Gypsy Swing Guitar with Joscho Stephan

    here a few words from his web-site:

    His roots lie in Gipsy Swing music, the style pioneered in the 1930s by the legendary jazz guitarist Django Reinhardt. Joscho Stephan has not merely absorbed this music, but also interprets it on the highest level and is actively engaged in extending its boundaries. Despite his youth, after four highly acclaimed CDs and a DVD he has played his way into the illustrous circle of the finest Gipsy Swing musicians in the world.


  15. #14

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    Yeah I kind of feel Gypsy jazz is its own thing. Always tends to skew things towards single note virtuosity. While there was a Parisian school of jazz guitar in the 1930s it wasn’t the prevailing style.

    Joscho Stephan is a more traditional style GJ player but note that even he sounds much less ‘Django-y’ than Dunaevsky. the style evolved...

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yeah I kind of feel Gypsy jazz is its own thing. Always tends to skew things towards single note virtuosity. While there was a Parisian school of jazz guitar in the 1930s it wasn’t the prevailing style.

    Joscho Stephan is a more traditional style GJ player but note that even he sounds much less ‘Django-y’ than Dunaevsky. the style evolved...
    Many of the younger players are in for speed. Sometimes the melody is drowned in lightning fast arpeggios.

  17. #16

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    For instance





    how much this style existed before Django I couldn’t say. I would say it didn’t. Django brought specific elements together - classical banjo pick technique (in which he had been formally schooled iirc), gypsy music, bal musette and chanson, and the improvisation and swing style of Louis Armstrong to make his guitar style that I think it spawned imitators, or at least players who were influenced by Django’s approach even if they were contemporaries.

    That said, Paris was a real melting pot and this type of French/Manouche string band swing would have been a thing anyway. Eddie Lang and Joe Venuti are an important forerunner, for instance.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by crusoe
    Many of the younger players are in for speed. Sometimes the melody is drowned in lightning fast arpeggios.
    they just don’t improvise melodies like Django did... they sound more harmonically tame as well. Just locked into the chord tones.

  19. #18

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    Robin Nolan, Amsterdam


  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    they just don’t improvise melodies like Django did... they sound more harmonically tame as well. Just locked into the chord tones.
    Really? You know a lot more about it than me but I think Antoine Boyer and Sebastian Giniaux among others are about as harmonically inventive and tasty as you can be within the limits of the style. Personally I like their music far more than the last generation of guys, Stochelo etc. Great as they are.

    If anyone hasn't heard Sebastian live at the Quecumbar I highly recommend checking out that recording.
    There's just 4 tracks of him on this album but they are all stunning.

    Clair de lune - Live, a song by Sebastien Giniaux, Ducato Piotrowski, Pete Kubryk-Townsend on Spotify

  21. #20

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    I'm a fan of Stephane Wrembel...

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by sully75
    Really? You know a lot more about it than me but I think Antoine Boyer and Sebastian Giniaux among others are about as harmonically inventive and tasty as you can be within the limits of the style. Personally I like their music far more than the last generation of guys, Stochelo etc. Great as they are.

    If anyone hasn't heard Sebastian live at the Quecumbar I highly recommend checking out that recording.
    There's just 4 tracks of him on this album but they are all stunning.

    Clair de lune - Live, a song by Sebastien Giniaux, Ducato Piotrowski, Pete Kubryk-Townsend on Spotify
    I’m more interested in prewar jazz guitar. I know this might seem like an odd thing to say but I don’t really follow GJ that much, so apols for the generalisation. Never been to Samois for instance.

    I find the ethos of the scene with specific reference to the guitar quite alien to my musical values but I’ve managed to end up working with some great players from it so I don’t think I’ve missed out too much. People generally seem to like the way I play that music even though I would say I lack some of the core skills you’d expect a straight up GJ player to have. (My rhythm style isn’t really la pompe for instance and my gypsy Bossa is pretty bad. )

    Btw I fell into doing this stuff from playing swing dance gigs with a band leader who wanted an acoustic rhythm guitar sound, which is actually quite a different thing. Most GJ bands play way too fast to play for dancers.

    I then transcribed a load of Django because he was the main guy I knew from that era and I needed to learn rest stroke picking because I needed to cut through on acoustic. So I ended up playing the basics of the style. (Later I discovered the US players of that era.)

    I am aware of Giniaux, but I haven’t listened that much to him. What I’ve heard I like. He did some stuff with Kora, right? I’ll give it a listen.

    I find gypsy jazz rhythm sections a bit relentless too a lot of the time which sort of puts me off the music after a while. Even Django. Thing is that’s what people like about it I think- it’s locked in.

    No disrespect to the people who do it well, it’s personal taste. I’ve ended up playing this type of music but I think I’ve always been keen to pull away from that format a bit, bass, two guitars, fiddle, everyone takes turns to shred. Sometimes the style can be a bit tyrannical too.

    (I love Hono Winterstein, plays any groove as well as a great drummer)
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-25-2020 at 07:43 AM.

  23. #22

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    oscar alemán on django-


    "I knew Django Reinhardt well. He used to say jazz was gipsy—we often argued over that. I agree with many Americans I met in France who said he played very well but with too many gipsy tricks. He had very good technique for both hands, or rather one hand and a pick, because he always played with a pick. Not me, I play with my fingers. There are things you can't do with a pick—you can't strike the treble with two fingers and play something else on the bass string. But I admired him and he was my friend. He was my greatest friend in France. We played together many times, just for ourselves. I used to go to his wagon, where he lived. I've slept and eaten there—and also played! He had three or four guitars. Django never asked anyone to go to his wagon, but he made an exception with me. I appreciated him, and I believe the feeling was mutual."




    harry volpe was another friend of django's...when django came stateside, volpe hooked up with him immediately...great player and teacher



    cheers

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I’m more interested in prewar jazz guitar. I know this might seem like an odd thing to say but I don’t really follow GJ that much, so apols for the generalisation. Never been to Samois for instance.

    I find the ethos of the scene with specific reference to the guitar quite alien to my musical values but I’ve managed to end up working with some great players from it so I don’t think I’ve missed out too much. People generally seem to like the way I play that music even though I would say I lack some of the core skills you’d expect a straight up GJ player to have. (My rhythm style isn’t really la pompe for instance and my gypsy Bossa is pretty bad. )

    Btw I fell into doing this stuff from playing swing dance gigs with a band leader who wanted an acoustic rhythm guitar sound, which is actually quite a different thing. Most GJ bands play way too fast to play for dancers.

    I then transcribed a load of Django because he was the main guy I knew from that era and I needed to learn rest stroke picking because I needed to cut through on acoustic. So I ended up playing the basics of the style. (Later I discovered the US players of that era.)

    I am aware of Giniaux, but I haven’t listened that much to him. What I’ve heard I like. He did some stuff with Kora, right? I’ll give it a listen.

    I find gypsy jazz rhythm sections a bit relentless too a lot of the time which sort of puts me off the music after a while. Even Django. Thing is that’s what people like about it I think- it’s locked in.

    No disrespect to the people who do it well, it’s personal taste. I’ve ended up playing this type of music but I think I’ve always been keen to pull away from that format a bit, bass, two guitars, fiddle, everyone takes turns to shred. Sometimes the style can be a bit tyrannical too.

    (I love Hono Winterstein, plays any groove as well as a great drummer)
    Totally. Well, it's a free country. Admittedly, if there was not such a strong jam scene for Django stuff, I might not work so hard on it. But my personal philosophy is that unless you're a super genius, you should probably give playing the music that other people around you are playing. And the buy in for playing Django stuff is a lot smaller than for playing bepop.

    I've heard other people mention that about gypsy rhythm. That doesn't particularly bother me. Some of the actual gypsy stuff is a little "purple" for me (I have maybe the most limited synethesia for music). But I'm trying to get into it. It's sort of very pure music to me. Very educational and digs at a lot of fundamentals. Not snobby, other than that it's pretty snobby within its own boundaries.

    I just found this today which is pretty cool. I learned some things in the way he fingers it. Seems like every open string he can get he uses. Since he's Django's buddy I imagine there's some commonality:


    I spent two weeks in France recently, miracle I got out. I saw almost everyone I wanted to. Just amazing. Paris is (or was) just amazing. I left the day before the travel ban.

    I think he's really extraordinary, probably one of the greatest musicians I've ever heard.


    I think you'd dig Mathieu Chatelain's rhythm style. Yeah, it's basically like a musical drum. I asked my friend what his ideal GJ recording was and he said this:


    Also this:

  25. #24

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    My main objective with GJ is that I would just play what I play on a selmac. I’d like to bring more of the Peter Bernstein or Lage Lund type stuff into it. I already play a heap of bop.... just play that in the context.

    what comes out is irritatingly stylistic though haha. macaferris just want you to play that way lol. But it also gives you a lot of leeway to get away with stuff because the attack and tone are so Django-y.

    so if someone asks me if I play gypsy jazz, quite honestly I try not to (and fail.) hopefully that creates an interesting tension for the listener. My playing on GJ autopilot is pretty notey and typical.

    I didn’t like it when somebody said I sounded like a different guitarist on selmer than on electric. He meant it as a complement but I hated that idea.

    i like that Ferre thing Montaigne st Genevieve with the electric archtop. Actually sounds great on that instrument and I’ve not heard it played on one before. It’s tough to play archtop with a gypsy sound without having to really go into cliches to avoid sounding like a straightahead player. Even Birelli sounds like Benson (a bit.) Ferre just had the sound of course...

  26. #25

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    Anyway if anyone is interested here are three vids I did on pre war guitar styles:






  27. #26

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    Never heard of Al Casey, thanks for letting me know about him

    From the liitle I know, Django was initially playing bal musette (with accordeon, guitar, violin) and when he first heard some of the early swing band records, he's got the idea of mixing the musette and the swing styles and came up with this gipsy jazz style during the early 30s

    His first record with HCF (Hot Club de France) is dated 1934 and its tracks are typical of the swing music of that time. That's before Charlie Christian and others

    Django 1934 - Les Premiers Enregistrements Du Quintette Du H.C.F. | Discogs

    Duke Ellington was admiring and in awe with Django, up to inviting him to play alone with him and a rythm section at Carnegie Hall (1946). This page (in French unfortunately) describes thr event

    [Django Station] - Inedits de Django / Un inedit de Django et d’Ellington au Carnegie Hall...!

    There are very few audio records of it, like this one

    Django Reinhardt - Honeysuckle Rose Carnegie Hall 1946 - YouTube



  28. #27

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    I might add that it is a passtime among all the GJ guitarists i know to say ‘I’m not really a GJ player’, ‘Keith Jarrett is my favourite musician’, ‘I’m off to India to study Konnakol for three weeks’ and ‘I much prefer Eddie Lang to Django’ and things like that. So my posts are par for the course.

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhch
    Never heard of Al Casey, thanks for letting me know about him

    From the liitle I know, Django was initially playing bal musette (with accordeon, guitar, violin) and when he first heard some of the early swing band records, he's got the idea of mixing the musette and the swing styles and came up with this gipsy jazz style during the early 30s

    So Django started on banjo. The right hand technique associated with GJ is classical plectrum banjo technique

    so there’s also the Russian gypsy repertoire. A lot of the gypsys came in from Russia via Berlin and then France apparently.

    As I understand it, Polka was the big form of popular music in the later 19th century and influenced all sorts of things including Gypsy music, Ragtime, Klezmer and of course, early jazz (also country music and Irish folk too.) The basic rhythm guitar/banjo groove is common to all, with stylistic nuances of course. Jazz introduces more of a West African triple time nuance to it, swing, which is not present in Ragtime. (African) American forms introduce more syncopation to the basic polka rhythm. You can certainly hear polka in the Hot Club rhythm guitars.

    Bal Musette as you say was very popular in Paris. The gypsy waltz repertoire afaik emerges from this combined with jazz.

    His first record with HCF (Hot Club de France) is dated 1934 and its tracks are typical of the swing music of that time. That's before Charlie Christian and others

    Django 1934 - Les Premiers Enregistrements Du Quintette Du H.C.F. | Discogs

    Duke Ellington was admiring and in awe with Django, up to inviting him to play alone with him and a rythm section at Carnegie Hall (1946). This page (in French unfortunately) describes thr event

    [Django Station] - Inedits de Django / Un inedit de Django et d’Ellington au Carnegie Hall...!

    There are very few audio records of it, like this one

    Django Reinhardt - Honeysuckle Rose Carnegie Hall 1946 - YouTube


    Nice! Apparently Django was regarded as not much of a big deal in the states. He was used to being feted, so was disappointed with the tour.

  30. #29

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    I really like this


  31. #30

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    Also I think Polka was big in Argentina which is where Aleman comes in....

  32. #31

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    A 1928 recording with Django playing the banjo, pretty unusual to hear that !!


  33. #32

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    This LP was one of the first non-Django Gypsy jazz records I heard back in the 90s.


  34. #33

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    Oh god it’s turning into GJ thread.

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Oh god it’s turning into GJ thread.
    Huh? Isn't the thread called "... his legacy ..."

  36. #35

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    Hush now.

    Duved seems to have ended up in one of the places in the world where it is still possible to play music in a group.



    Pretty mega, I think.

  37. #36

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    Off to Zanzibar...if only for few minutes


  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Anyway if anyone is interested here are three vids I did on pre war guitar styles:
    thanks for these. found them interesting to have on whilst doing somework. boarded into podcast territory, not sure if thats your intention with the longer videos but i think they work quite well as something to listen to without a guitar and then can revist later with guitar in hand.

    you refered to prevalent rhythms (in particular the 2 3 clave) is there anywhere you get into this in more detail? or could point me in the direction to find out more

    ta

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    My main objective with GJ is that I would just play what I play on a selmac. I’d like to bring more of the Peter Bernstein or Lage Lund type stuff into it. I already play a heap of bop.... just play that in the context.

    what comes out is irritatingly stylistic though haha. macaferris just want you to play that way lol. But it also gives you a lot of leeway to get away with stuff because the attack and tone are so Django-y.

    so if someone asks me if I play gypsy jazz, quite honestly I try not to (and fail.) hopefully that creates an interesting tension for the listener. My playing on GJ autopilot is pretty notey and typical.

    I didn’t like it when somebody said I sounded like a different guitarist on selmer than on electric. He meant it as a complement but I hated that idea.

    i like that Ferre thing Montaigne st Genevieve with the electric archtop. Actually sounds great on that instrument and I’ve not heard it played on one before. It’s tough to play archtop with a gypsy sound without having to really go into cliches to avoid sounding like a straightahead player. Even Birelli sounds like Benson (a bit.) Ferre just had the sound of course...
    I don't know man. I always appreciate what you have to say but it seems like you sell GJ pretty short. It's pretty wide and diverse. Especially now. Personally I just think people like Sebastian G and the Brunard family and Adrien Moignard are just great musicians. I saw Antoine Boyer play what was basically a flamenco concert on his Selmac with Samuelito in Paris and it was just stunning. Not much GJ other than the technique. The rhythmic connection was just ridiculous. Also Antoine plays really ridiculous classical stuff too. It's gross, really. Nice guy also.

    And as far as transferring all the Peter Bernstein type stuff to that guitar, I think that works too. Someone like Noe Reinhardt playing archtop sounds a lot like a modern straight ahead player.

    The belgian players like Stochelo are not my favorites, although I admire their virtuosity. Definitely too notey for me but also amazing in its own right.

    It's pretty wide open and not really snobby to me. The funny thing is I think people are more snobby about the rhythm guitar than the soloing. You can kind of do whatever you want with the soloing but the rhythm is very very subtle and difficult to get.

  40. #39

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    I loooooooooooooooooooooooooooove arpeggios. When this virus-crap is over
    and I'm still alive, I'm going to buy my a Gipsy-Guitar.


  41. #40

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    When I was younger, Häns'che Weiss was quite famous in Germany.


  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by basinstreet
    thanks for these. found them interesting to have on whilst doing somework. boarded into podcast territory, not sure if thats your intention with the longer videos but i think they work quite well as something to listen to without a guitar and then can revist later with guitar in hand.

    you refered to prevalent rhythms (in particular the 2 3 clave) is there anywhere you get into this in more detail? or could point me in the direction to find out more

    ta
    bonritmos (Andrew Scott Potter) brought up the connection with Opanije, which is like what happens when you cross a Polka with a 2/3 clave.



    Check out

    7. king porter stomp - opanije 7:23
    8. muskrat love- opanije 8:05
    9. hee bee jeebies- opanije 8:26

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by sully75
    It's pretty wide open and not really snobby to me. The funny thing is I think people are more snobby about the rhythm guitar than the soloing. You can kind of do whatever you want with the soloing but the rhythm is very very subtle and difficult to get.
    Sure, that's exactly it, and to be honest, I'm not that into that groove and those specific voicings. And the uniformity of approach is not really my thing even as it may really suit some people.

    And I think for a lot of people that’s what GJ is. Well if that’s it, then OK, then I’m not a GJ player. I obviously play Parisian style String Jazz a lot... so most people understand that as GJ. So I play GJ but I’m not GJ? Bloomin heck it’s complicated lol.

    There’s a fine line between following you own muse and being a special snowflake I realise.

    (Actually among older people in our audiences they seem to be more aware of Grapelli as he was touring up to the 80s, so that changes it again. And he didn’t like playing with GJ style guitarists obviously.)

    Anyway, i'm much more drawn to American swing styles as a listener. It's a taste thing. And all swing rhythm guitar is subtle to get right...

    I have no idea if I get close enough in my swing rhythm playing to 'pass' - but people seem to like my rhythm playing, and give me money to do it, so let them sort it out in their heads. Some people sweat hours nailing a perfect Alsace la pompe, I'm busy trying to get the way Billy Bean plays rhythm... or Jim Hall, or Freddie Green. Or Howard Alden, or Matt Munisteri.

    Most people outside of the GJ community, even many in it who are not guitarists don't seem to care so long as it swings. Look at the way Dave Kelbie plays rhythm for instance....

    (Many modern GJ players don’t play rhythm the way Roger Chaput and Joseph Reinhardt etc did either... They use more complex voicings, more of a backbeat, etc. The style has evolved.)

    Another thing is practical. I don’t often play with another guitarist, so I have to play a more intermingled style that weaves rhythm and lead together. So with that in mind I’m just not doing the same sort of job.

    As I say it's a taste thing. For someone getting into jazz, I think it's a godsend to have such specific information, and I try and teach the 'right info.'
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-29-2020 at 12:27 PM.

  44. #43

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    liked your videos , christian

    funny you mentioned my other youtube, i just finished the first chapter of a series of youtubes im making about those ketu candomble code hookups in jazz, and "opanije " is chapter one. i use a little of these examples and a bunch of others

    i actualy just recorded over the whole hot fives louis armstrong record minus three songs, just to show people how powerful these hook ups are , and , the most powerful hook up was opanije for that record.

    i would say the whole world went after the louis armstrong aproach to jazz after this record came out , the hot fives. he innovated so many new things on that record, lead soloing , scating and the groove they were deep into was opanije.

    now when people copied louis, they may not have understood and got the whole groove right, you know how it is, so , maybe django and the people in europe hit it right sometimes, maybe sometimes not , which means it wasnt wrong, it just became their thing.

    luckily i saw the feed to this thread or i would have missed it.

    i hope to have the "OPANIJE" youtube up here by tonight...lets see, thanks for referencing my youtube. the more im looking at this, the more powerful it gets, how about hook ups with art tatum, james p johnson , profesor long hair, dr john , ray charles , the flamingos, bb king, etc with these ketu codes , in black american music . its too strong to deny

  45. #44

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    Josué Raquinard , David Reinhardt and Noé Reinhardt


  46. #45

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    Not a guitarist influenced by Django but check out pianist, Horace Parlan who overcame a similar disability (a right hand crippled by polio meant that two of his fingers were non-functional) to create a unique playing style.

    Parlan's solo starts around 8'00":


  47. #46

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    Here's the link for the GJ Movie "Djangologists" with the Rosenber-Trio.
    Hope it works. Have fun...


  48. #47

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    Let's not forget Lonnie Johnson. His work with a variety of great female vocalists
    was outstanding. Here's "Away all the Time" with Georgia White:


  49. #48

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    I get the feeling Django was more influenced by Louis Armstrong than any prior jazz guitarist.

  50. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    bonritmos (Andrew Scott Potter) brought up the connection with Opanije, which is like what happens when you cross a Polka with a 2/3 clave.
    fantastic thanks. Will have a look. And cheers for the vid Bonritmos , the future ones sound interesting too

  51. #50

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    I'm always amazed whenever I read about young GJ Guitarplayers. Hardly any scales, theory (whatever
    their family gathered throughout the past) and just bloody practising "48 hours a day".

    Then there are the scale-kids who pay a lot of coin for years of modal improvisation and
    the ability of name all tibetan minor notes among the temple-gongs...you know what i mean.

    A narrow path somewhere between. Have you found it ?