The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Get's pretty far to what one would think as outside. So, if I'm getting this right...

    For Dm7 you can think of the relative minor Am7. Now play the dominant to Am7 and you're playing an E7. How about a ii V for Am7 and you have Bm7 to E7, and maybe add the Fm7 for the E7

    So for Dm7, one is playing Bm7 to E7 to Fm7 resolving to Am7

    And listening/watching to the ease with which Benson does all this, it seems he does it without "thinking" about it... and he can sing it!!!!

    What is amazing to me is somehow Benson always seems so "in" and accessible to even nonmusicians when taking it to several levels of "outside". Maybe that speaks to his feel/groove/speed/conviction. What he does always seems so right to me.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Joe Pass said three, major, minor, and dominant. Though to be fair, he said--IIRC--SOUNDS, not chords. And augmented and diminished chords function as dominant sounds--most of the time time--in context.

    You are right. This is a deep well. I think it helps to learn some great lines and gradually---at one's own pace---realize how they work. (I suspect that's what George did.) Pat Martino learned that way too. (Obviously, if your ear isn't that good, that option is not readily available.)

    George and Pat were friends.

    Have you seen the NAMM video of George Benson and Carol Kaye jamming? Not the highest quality video but you can tell those two greats were at home playing together.
    Could you post a link to this, please?

  4. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    ...So for Dm7, one is playing Bm7 to E7 to Fm7 resolving to Am7

    ...
    I'm not certain, but perhaps the way you might use Fm7 is as the ii of V being the TT (Bb7) of E7 which is the V7 of the relative minor of C.... ?

    Or just see it as the "back door' 2 - 5 ...... ?

    And yeah, it must be all about how GB lands his lines. ...

  5. #29

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    - Dm-Fmaj7 and Am-Cmaj7 are home (flux)
    - Dominants and their subs are away (reflux)

  6. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by mikostep
    Thanks, will check it out.

  7. #31

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    George Benson read the Jazz Guitar Forum and he became a genius

  8. #32

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    My brain just exploded

    you guys go on ahead ... I'll be OK
    Last edited by pingu; 01-25-2020 at 10:02 PM.

  9. #33

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    This thread is a mix of over complication and over simplification.

    D Dorian
    ||: D-7 | G7 :||

    Tweak the D-7:
    D-maj7, 4ths, etc

    All the other chordal overlays are ways of "going outside". Not a lot of deep analysis really needed there, simply go out and come back in. Be tasteful and don't stay out for too long.

  10. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Patlotch
    George Benson read the Jazz Guitar Forum and he became a genius
    Yeah, nice one....

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikostep
    Could you post a link to this, please?
    The video comes and goes. Someone posts it, someone else takes it down. Someone posts it... I think it was from 2006.

  12. #36

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    Okay, the Benson / Carol Kaye video can be found here:

    Her Name is Carol Kaye by Nelson Torres — Kickstarter

    The page at the link is about "Her Name Is Carol." If you scroll down, you will find a link to the Benson / Kaye jam at Namm in 2006. You can download it. (I did.)

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Okay, the Benson / Carol Kaye video can be found here:

    Her Name is Carol Kaye by Nelson Torres — Kickstarter

    The page at the link is about "Her Name Is Carol." If you scroll down, you will find a link to the Benson / Kaye jam at Namm in 2006. You can download it. (I did.)
    Thanx.

  14. #38

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    This goes even deeper, and helps to organize the concept:
    Dodecaphonics

  15. #39

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    Yea.. cool. Just using one chord, or a simple Chord pattern, II- V7. And expanding with different Functional relationships or subs. Anyway, each layer has more options through expanding.

    And then you can expand the Chord Pattern, add some different Functional guidelines, modal concepts.

    The only thing I noticed is without the use of Blue Notes... which also create a source for Subs and Function... sounds pretty vanilla. Seems like when you just get technical and plug and play, which I guess needs to be 1st steps to developing approach... the results, are cool. But only guitar Geeks may stay interested.

    I'm not trying to downplay... it's just these magic chord relationships and subs are not new. I'm old but still around and remember at least back to the late 60's being introduced to these harmonic licks. (Subs and Functional relationships )

    The more you add to your plate... the better you need to become to actually use in contexts... live. Anyway... this approach is how I look and hear music. It's not complicated, if you just go through the process on paper...

  16. #40

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    Hey Sam... very nice. Love the Amps... guitar not bad either.

    So A few things, Your use of the application or device sounds and looks like typical embellishments and ornaments.
    Not a bad thing... but to actually use the technique being called GB secrets, you need to have targets, tonal targets.

    The secrets are just using Subs, there are Diatonic Functional subs... which are just the Functional labels of chords constructed from notes of any scale.

    Ex.Diatonic chords from Maj scale and labels
    Cmaj7...D-7...E-7...Fmaj7...G7...A-7...B-7b5
    Ima7....II-7...III-7..IVma7...V7..VI-7..VII-7b5

    Tonic........ Ima, III-, and VI-
    Sub Dom...II-7, IVma
    Dominant... V7, VII-7b5

    When you think and hear harmonically with Function as the organizational control of movement... any chord with same function becomes a Functional Sub. The example above is just the basic start....

    Then there are Tri Tone subs... invert the tritone and create a different V7 choprd....... Sub V G7 becomes Db7 or C#7.

    You can then expand these standard harmonic organizational devices with the application of Borrowing, beginning with Relative then Parrallel.

    (I'm skipping Modal Interchange for now... but obviously creates many options.)

    The next step is to apply same harmonic devices above to Chord Patterns. This thread used The Relative II-7 of any V7 chord which is very standard Jazz Chord Pattern. The Cool thing with Chord Patterns is that all the chords within the Chord Pattern... Become and Function as ONE CHORD. And you can use any chord within the Chord Pattern to apply the Diatonic sub Device and even the Tritone device with some avoid contexts. (and even better any chord within the Chord Pattern can becom the Tonal Target.... even if the Chord Pattern implies a chord that isn't there.)
    D-7 G7 can imply Cmaj7 so even if the Cmaj is not there... you can use the implied Target Target to create Subs From. But Wait there's More....

    Expand the Chord Pattern to three chords by calling any Chord a Tonal Target and then expand that chord by approaching with any Tonal implying Chord Pattern...

    Ex. In Blue Bossa above.... 1st 4 bars... I'll II V's on 1st 2 bars then V7 and SubV on next 2 bars
    C-7 ................/ C-7.................../ F-7........./Bb7......../ Now make each chord a Tonal Target...

    C-7.. D-7 G7#9/ C-6..Gb13 C7alt /F-7 etc...there many options, but when you use typical Functional sub devices the pitch organization naturally work better.

    So then bigger chord patterns as subs or what ever you choose.

    Anyway... you then need to expand and bring in Blue Notes with the new chord patterns and use rhythmical organization... create and work with Harmonic Rhythm.... not just the basic chords... the actually style and feel created from rhythmic attacks...how the chords are placed within phrases... which create the real Harmonic Rhythm.

    Long story short... don't just embellish randomly.... use harmony to organize those embellishments and ornament to become Chord Tones. (And if your going to call the device GB secrets... use some Blue Notes Functionally. (which brings in Melodic minor naturally)

  17. #41

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    1. G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
    2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
    3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
    4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj

    The way I understand these is as an extension (using a portion of the cycle) of the tritone dominant substitution. So for G7, you have the II V I IV of the Db7 tritone substitution of G7. Using the II of the tritone sub is pretty common. I know Wes, Joe Pass and many others have done so. I don't know that I've come across also using the I and IV before. That would be a lot to fit in, in a bebop context where the chords are moving so fast. Maybe, it would be easier in a modal context. I do think the ear just hears it as "playing out". It makes it easier to play a lot of chord extensions (9, 11, 13) using the familiar building blocks of triads and seventh chords.

    The amazing thing is the way Benson makes it sound so effortless, musical and accessible. Does anybody have an example recording and/or transcription where he's using these techniques? It would be nice to know of a specific chorus or two from one of his solos where it's particularly in use and easy to follow and identify. I've been listening to Benson since the early 70s and have a lot of his recordings, so there's a good chance I'd have a recording of it and be able to learn something. A transcription would be even better.
    Last edited by RobbieAG; 02-03-2020 at 05:43 PM.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieAG
    1. G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
    2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
    3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
    4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj

    The way I understand these is as an extension (using a portion of the cycle) of the tritone dominant substitution. So for G7, you have the II V I IV of the Db7 tritone substitution of G7. Using the II of the tritone sub is pretty common. I know Wes, Joe Pass and many others have done so. I don't know that I've come across also using the I and IV before. That would be a lot to fit in, in a bebop context where the chords are moving so fast. Maybe, it would be easier in a modal context. I do think the ear just hears it as "playing out". It makes it easier to play a lot of chord extensions (9, 11, 13) using the familiar building blocks of triads and seventh chords.

    The amazing thing is the way Benson makes it sound so effortless, musical and accessible. Does anybody have an example recording and/or transcription where he's using these techniques?
    Well, try with every song he plays.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Just when I thought I was across most harmonic concepts relating to Functional Harmony I came across this quote on a recent thread posted by mikostep :

    ....

    " For example: on Dm7 dorian (So what) soloist have following choices (I'll explain it in steps):
    Step 1 - relatives
    1. Fmaj and Dm
    2. Cmaj (actuall key) and Am.

    Step 2 - dominants
    1. Cmaj-G7 and Am-E7
    2. Fmaj-C7 and Dm-A7

    Step 3 - further development of dominants
    1.G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
    2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
    3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
    4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj

    Step 3 can be developed in other ways too.
    Now, try to play "So what" with all these choices and remember that all of this can be used harmonically and melodically.
    And this is just the beginning of harmonic possibilities. Another interesting harmonic concept Peter gave us is in the lesson about Harmonic regions. Many classically trained musicians are familiar with Schoenberg harmonic regions. It's similar concept, but with chords that works in jazz. Totally mind blowing lesson. In that lesson he played Blue moon in like 50 different ways. Again, it is possible to use it harmonically and melodically. "

    .....

    So, this, especially after seeing the corresponding Peter Farrell video touching on some of these concepts, has been blowing my mind. Farrell, for all his quirks, has somehow managed the impossible - he has somewhat decoded GB's methodology. He has probably come closest of all who have ever tried to actually describe the thinking behind Benson's line construction, along with many other facets as well.

    Why am I mentioning it here where you can go to the other threads started about Farrell's Benson Method? Because it's frickin' astonishing, that's why! ... And it's not getting the discussion it deserves! OK, I know some peeps consider GB to be just a super charged R&B chops machine, but this sells him criminally short! There is a sophistication and complexity going on under the hood that has baffled most since the 60's. I can remember transcribing some GB solos and just giving up trying to make sense of any analysis. I kinda walked away thinking "This dude gets away with playing anything over anything!".

    Yeah their have been attempts in books to transcribe and decode the GB style, but nothing convincing or groundbreaking. This Farrell fellow has been a private student of George's for years and has been officially sanctioned by George to create a series of books and videos which showcases the GB method. I'm no shill for these products as they are too expensive for me to consider purchasing, but how many of you have watched the free videos? It's akin to someone being shown Charlie Parker's thinking as told directly by Bird himself to the chosen messenger. GB's harmonic thinking is up there with (or in some respects perhaps even beyond) that of Bird, Trane, Wes, Cannonball, Herbie, Hubbard etc and as far as I know there has not been a method of either of these greats created under the auspices of the greats themselves.

    I know that some will pass on the whole deal because it seems like a 5 year course (or more!) on how to be a GB clone, or how to learn a ton of flashy lines with which to fake improv with.... but I'm not interested in that. I wanna know more about the origins of GB's peculiar harmonic insights. Where did he get them from? How much of this thinking was original? For example, does anyone here pull from the following matrix? :

    Over D Dorian:

    1.G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
    2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
    3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
    4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj

    I gotta say, after listening to Farrell (despite his strangely unorthodox presentations!) share some insights into George's thinking, I'm realising GB is probably even more of a freak/genius than I thought he was. Kinda makes much of my previous harmonic "knowledge" redundant.... What do you guys make of it all?


    most ‘harmonic knowledge’ in jazz was invented in 1970ish so that people would have something to teach on jazz courses....

  20. #44

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    So Rob
    The IImin and IVmaj are diatonic subs right
    Cmaj7 is the same as Ami9.

    Cycles are also a mechanical device for organizing movement
    I just use Functional organization for all the magic to have common connections.

    Christian,
    Funny thing is his most of my harmonic knowledge is from centuries ago and just expanded on. Long before I was aware of Jazz I was aware of Schoenberg, Barton, Ives etc..

  21. #45

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    Good quote from a paper I’m reading for an essay. Sven Bjernstedt (2016);

    Several informants agree that jazz education is probably marked by what is easy to teach. They believe that the chord/scale formulaic methods are likely to remain a popular approach in jazz pedagogy for several reasons: it is comparatively easy to verbalize and communicate, it is measurable to some degree, and it has come to be perceived as a stepping stone in improvisational instruction‘

    Interestingly Rick Beato has said the same thing. most musicians do.

    So it would be better to view textbook jazz harmony as a thing that people could do and increasingly did do than any attempt at describing prior practice. George is prior.

    anyway seems like having a pop at CST is basically everyone’s party pastime in the jazz pedagogy literature... it’s like everyone knows it shit, and yet we carry on using it haha.

    but none of this is terribly important in the grand scheme of things. There’s nothing wrong with knowledge or info. As far as I can tell this stuff has been around since Tristano in the 40s (Peter Ind). What’s important is being in the learning environment.

    Everyone on this forum with an interest read Paul Berliners book on Jazz it’s great. None of it will be news to Reg...

    Also as has been repeated harmonic theory (CST or functional harmony for that matter) is not an improvisation method.... Nettles and Graf would tell you that themselves ... not all note choices have a vertical relationship. So why the fuck is jazz improv taught that way so often? (lazy teaching, see above)

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    So Rob
    The IImin and IVmaj are diatonic subs right
    Cmaj7 is the same as Ami9.

    Cycles are also a mechanical device for organizing movement
    I just use Functional organization for all the magic to have common connections.

    Christian,
    Funny thing is his most of my harmonic knowledge is from centuries ago and just expanded on. Long before I was aware of Jazz I was aware of Schoenberg, Barton, Ives etc..
    Interesting, how come?

  23. #47

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    Also Bjernstedt has applied a rather cool idea to jazz edu; stolen knowledge, the idea that knowledge is demand side, stolen or cribbed somewhat illicitly. What is learned by a student is not just what is taught.

    Berliner points out that in traditional jazz learning the student determines what they need to learn and acts as a self directed learner. Paul Desmond ‘jazz cannot be taught, jazz can be learned.’

    I believe elsewhere on this forum someone mentioned that taking a lick down from a record was called ‘lifting’ - I believe in hip hop the term is in use for sampling.

    what has happened and one thing that pisses me off about the forum is that information has become massively supply side. People get used to being spoon fed.

  24. #48

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    Which comment?
    Christian... if I’ve pissed you off or did something that ? I apologize...it Ok to disagree. And if I’m just in outer limits, again sorry.
    Reg

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Which comment?
    Christian... if I’ve pissed you off or did something that ? I apologize...it Ok to disagree. And if I’m just in outer limits, again sorry.
    Reg
    Dont worry, nothing like that, think crossed wires?

    interested in how you were interested in 20th century concert music before jazz?

  26. #50

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    Back to basics... if I only had to worry about improv...I wouldn’t be playing that much.
    most of my playing involves horizontal aspect. I use all aspects, vertical organization is always going on also.

    I would say there are many guitarist who can solo really well...very few can comp etc...
    personally I’m just always hearing both... and a bunch of other bs.
    I thought about therapy...but