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Get's pretty far to what one would think as outside. So, if I'm getting this right...
For Dm7 you can think of the relative minor Am7. Now play the dominant to Am7 and you're playing an E7. How about a ii V for Am7 and you have Bm7 to E7, and maybe add the Fm7 for the E7
So for Dm7, one is playing Bm7 to E7 to Fm7 resolving to Am7
And listening/watching to the ease with which Benson does all this, it seems he does it without "thinking" about it... and he can sing it!!!!
What is amazing to me is somehow Benson always seems so "in" and accessible to even nonmusicians when taking it to several levels of "outside". Maybe that speaks to his feel/groove/speed/conviction. What he does always seems so right to me.
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01-25-2020 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Originally Posted by fep
Or just see it as the "back door' 2 - 5 ...... ?
And yeah, it must be all about how GB lands his lines. ...
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- Dm-Fmaj7 and Am-Cmaj7 are home (flux)
- Dominants and their subs are away (reflux)
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Originally Posted by mikostep
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George Benson read the Jazz Guitar Forum and he became a genius
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My brain just exploded
you guys go on ahead ... I'll be OKLast edited by pingu; 01-25-2020 at 10:02 PM.
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This thread is a mix of over complication and over simplification.
D Dorian
||: D-7 | G7 :||
Tweak the D-7:
D-maj7, 4ths, etc
All the other chordal overlays are ways of "going outside". Not a lot of deep analysis really needed there, simply go out and come back in. Be tasteful and don't stay out for too long.
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Originally Posted by Patlotch
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Originally Posted by mikostep
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Okay, the Benson / Carol Kaye video can be found here:
Her Name is Carol Kaye by Nelson Torres — Kickstarter
The page at the link is about "Her Name Is Carol." If you scroll down, you will find a link to the Benson / Kaye jam at Namm in 2006. You can download it. (I did.)
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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This goes even deeper, and helps to organize the concept:
Dodecaphonics
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Yea.. cool. Just using one chord, or a simple Chord pattern, II- V7. And expanding with different Functional relationships or subs. Anyway, each layer has more options through expanding.
And then you can expand the Chord Pattern, add some different Functional guidelines, modal concepts.
The only thing I noticed is without the use of Blue Notes... which also create a source for Subs and Function... sounds pretty vanilla. Seems like when you just get technical and plug and play, which I guess needs to be 1st steps to developing approach... the results, are cool. But only guitar Geeks may stay interested.
I'm not trying to downplay... it's just these magic chord relationships and subs are not new. I'm old but still around and remember at least back to the late 60's being introduced to these harmonic licks. (Subs and Functional relationships )
The more you add to your plate... the better you need to become to actually use in contexts... live. Anyway... this approach is how I look and hear music. It's not complicated, if you just go through the process on paper...
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Hey Sam... very nice. Love the Amps... guitar not bad either.
So A few things, Your use of the application or device sounds and looks like typical embellishments and ornaments.
Not a bad thing... but to actually use the technique being called GB secrets, you need to have targets, tonal targets.
The secrets are just using Subs, there are Diatonic Functional subs... which are just the Functional labels of chords constructed from notes of any scale.
Ex.Diatonic chords from Maj scale and labels
Cmaj7...D-7...E-7...Fmaj7...G7...A-7...B-7b5
Ima7....II-7...III-7..IVma7...V7..VI-7..VII-7b5
Tonic........ Ima, III-, and VI-
Sub Dom...II-7, IVma
Dominant... V7, VII-7b5
When you think and hear harmonically with Function as the organizational control of movement... any chord with same function becomes a Functional Sub. The example above is just the basic start....
Then there are Tri Tone subs... invert the tritone and create a different V7 choprd....... Sub V G7 becomes Db7 or C#7.
You can then expand these standard harmonic organizational devices with the application of Borrowing, beginning with Relative then Parrallel.
(I'm skipping Modal Interchange for now... but obviously creates many options.)
The next step is to apply same harmonic devices above to Chord Patterns. This thread used The Relative II-7 of any V7 chord which is very standard Jazz Chord Pattern. The Cool thing with Chord Patterns is that all the chords within the Chord Pattern... Become and Function as ONE CHORD. And you can use any chord within the Chord Pattern to apply the Diatonic sub Device and even the Tritone device with some avoid contexts. (and even better any chord within the Chord Pattern can becom the Tonal Target.... even if the Chord Pattern implies a chord that isn't there.)
D-7 G7 can imply Cmaj7 so even if the Cmaj is not there... you can use the implied Target Target to create Subs From. But Wait there's More....
Expand the Chord Pattern to three chords by calling any Chord a Tonal Target and then expand that chord by approaching with any Tonal implying Chord Pattern...
Ex. In Blue Bossa above.... 1st 4 bars... I'll II V's on 1st 2 bars then V7 and SubV on next 2 bars
C-7 ................/ C-7.................../ F-7........./Bb7......../ Now make each chord a Tonal Target...
C-7.. D-7 G7#9/ C-6..Gb13 C7alt /F-7 etc...there many options, but when you use typical Functional sub devices the pitch organization naturally work better.
So then bigger chord patterns as subs or what ever you choose.
Anyway... you then need to expand and bring in Blue Notes with the new chord patterns and use rhythmical organization... create and work with Harmonic Rhythm.... not just the basic chords... the actually style and feel created from rhythmic attacks...how the chords are placed within phrases... which create the real Harmonic Rhythm.
Long story short... don't just embellish randomly.... use harmony to organize those embellishments and ornament to become Chord Tones. (And if your going to call the device GB secrets... use some Blue Notes Functionally. (which brings in Melodic minor naturally)
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1. G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj
The way I understand these is as an extension (using a portion of the cycle) of the tritone dominant substitution. So for G7, you have the II V I IV of the Db7 tritone substitution of G7. Using the II of the tritone sub is pretty common. I know Wes, Joe Pass and many others have done so. I don't know that I've come across also using the I and IV before. That would be a lot to fit in, in a bebop context where the chords are moving so fast. Maybe, it would be easier in a modal context. I do think the ear just hears it as "playing out". It makes it easier to play a lot of chord extensions (9, 11, 13) using the familiar building blocks of triads and seventh chords.
The amazing thing is the way Benson makes it sound so effortless, musical and accessible. Does anybody have an example recording and/or transcription where he's using these techniques? It would be nice to know of a specific chorus or two from one of his solos where it's particularly in use and easy to follow and identify. I've been listening to Benson since the early 70s and have a lot of his recordings, so there's a good chance I'd have a recording of it and be able to learn something. A transcription would be even better.Last edited by RobbieAG; 02-03-2020 at 05:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by RobbieAG
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
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So Rob
The IImin and IVmaj are diatonic subs right
Cmaj7 is the same as Ami9.
Cycles are also a mechanical device for organizing movement
I just use Functional organization for all the magic to have common connections.
Christian,
Funny thing is his most of my harmonic knowledge is from centuries ago and just expanded on. Long before I was aware of Jazz I was aware of Schoenberg, Barton, Ives etc..
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Good quote from a paper I’m reading for an essay. Sven Bjernstedt (2016);
‘Several informants agree that jazz education is probably marked by what is easy to teach. They believe that the chord/scale formulaic methods are likely to remain a popular approach in jazz pedagogy for several reasons: it is comparatively easy to verbalize and communicate, it is measurable to some degree, and it has come to be perceived as a stepping stone in improvisational instruction‘
Interestingly Rick Beato has said the same thing. most musicians do.
So it would be better to view textbook jazz harmony as a thing that people could do and increasingly did do than any attempt at describing prior practice. George is prior.
anyway seems like having a pop at CST is basically everyone’s party pastime in the jazz pedagogy literature... it’s like everyone knows it shit, and yet we carry on using it haha.
but none of this is terribly important in the grand scheme of things. There’s nothing wrong with knowledge or info. As far as I can tell this stuff has been around since Tristano in the 40s (Peter Ind). What’s important is being in the learning environment.
Everyone on this forum with an interest read Paul Berliners book on Jazz it’s great. None of it will be news to Reg...
Also as has been repeated harmonic theory (CST or functional harmony for that matter) is not an improvisation method.... Nettles and Graf would tell you that themselves ... not all note choices have a vertical relationship. So why the fuck is jazz improv taught that way so often? (lazy teaching, see above)
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Originally Posted by Reg
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Also Bjernstedt has applied a rather cool idea to jazz edu; stolen knowledge, the idea that knowledge is demand side, stolen or cribbed somewhat illicitly. What is learned by a student is not just what is taught.
Berliner points out that in traditional jazz learning the student determines what they need to learn and acts as a self directed learner. Paul Desmond ‘jazz cannot be taught, jazz can be learned.’
I believe elsewhere on this forum someone mentioned that taking a lick down from a record was called ‘lifting’ - I believe in hip hop the term is in use for sampling.
what has happened and one thing that pisses me off about the forum is that information has become massively supply side. People get used to being spoon fed.
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Which comment?
Christian... if I’ve pissed you off or did something that ? I apologize...it Ok to disagree. And if I’m just in outer limits, again sorry.
Reg
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Originally Posted by Reg
interested in how you were interested in 20th century concert music before jazz?
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Back to basics... if I only had to worry about improv...I wouldn’t be playing that much.
most of my playing involves horizontal aspect. I use all aspects, vertical organization is always going on also.
I would say there are many guitarist who can solo really well...very few can comp etc...
personally I’m just always hearing both... and a bunch of other bs.
I thought about therapy...but
Transcriber wanted
Today, 04:35 PM in Improvisation