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Originally Posted by John A.
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09-23-2019 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
Ornette had harmolodics
Cecil had unit structures
Pharaoh and Sharrock had free modal
I think it's fair to say that Ornette's deliberate structure was inherently more palatable because he was willing to restate themes more than others. You hear it in Eric Dolphy, Don Cherry and Blood Ulmer as well.
I'm agreeing with you here, but adding a bit of my own thinking. (Or, I guess, a bit of Joe Morris' thinking.)
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Originally Posted by rmpmcdermott
John
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Originally Posted by John A.
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Originally Posted by rmpmcdermott
John
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Originally Posted by John A.
Anyway, thanks for the notes about the Kitting Factory. Love hearing about Downtown music when it was happening, especially first-hand accounts.
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Originally Posted by John A.
it was really an extension of the earlier downtown loft jazz scene
cheers
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Originally Posted by neatomic
Sorry to derail the thread. I just love any chance I get to talk about that era of experimental music.
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actually jim hall was very dismissive of working with metheney..didn't like pats method of overdubbing and fixing tracks at all
facts
cheers
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Last week I read this article about the recording process behind their duo album. I never knew Metheny played through a Polytone on that album. The article was published at guitarplayer.com in August 1999.
Dynamic Duo - Jim Hall on the Making of Jim Hall & Pat Metheny
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Originally Posted by Lark
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Almost like a Kenny G video....
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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Needless to deny the most polite we can say this clip is “easy to understand”. Just imagine sax playing the guitar solo, then there we go...
However this really does not mean PM is equal with Kenny G. as musician. If Kenny G could record Bright Size Life with Jaco, that would mean they are similar as artist.
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Originally Posted by rmpmcdermott
John
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
Of course again, if you look from the angle of classic jazz ala Kenny Barrel or such, you can be disappointed. But why look from that angle? It's really apples and oranges.
And even in this performance I can still hear PM is influenced by rocknroll. I don't know how, but it's there always, I can feel it. And that's why I always cool with PM, he was the last generation of jazz guitarists who embraced rock music as part of their language. With Sco, Frisell, Abercrombie...
From there on it's nerds nerds, nerd jazz which is not to my liking at all. So never had a problem with PM, even though I don't own any of his recordings.
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
This really just shows that Metheny can do that thing too, as well as his more advanced material.
The big question then comes, What precisely can Pat Metheny not do musically? Hard to think of anything.
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
Almost a half century ago Pink Floyd made records what are really more injected with jazz than this PM pop song, but thankfully no one think it is jazz.
Watch this. This was really something: (in case it starts at 0:00 skip to 15:23)
and this: (in case it starts at 0:00 skip to 1:57)
This music rock/pop (actually more influenced with jazz than the PM video, but this is not the point) made music history which is the point. Bright Size Life also made music history. But this Longest Summer thing... I think lost cause to defend it...Last edited by Gabor; 09-24-2019 at 09:41 AM.
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
You are right, there are melodic ideas. However ask yourself: Is there any point where it is surprising or do you hear anything what you did not see to come knowing PM? (either rhythmically or harmonically, or melody wise?) I did not. But I can not deny: really sweet to listen. Unfortunately the very same (literally) melody ideas were already on Bright Size Life, and since then in every single work. The only exceptions I can think about is One Quiet Night (I am not sure how real it is) and Zero Tolerance... which more like experiment than music, max 1% of PM fans are tolerate it. You asking:
Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Originally Posted by Gabor
I'm having trouble figuring out where all this energy to clarify how Metheny isn't playing jazz comes from. There isn't a single authoritative definition of jazz. Swing players claimed bop wasn't jazz. Bop players claimed fusion wasn't jazz. On it goes.
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
John
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
- Regarding surprise in a solo or in a melody, you skipped that. Just compare, it is no matter how well you know Miles, he still can surprise you even by playing a standard theme by his choice of the rhythm or a particular note.(not even in a solo) The same for Bill Evans or Keith Jarrett or Kreisberg, or Jesse van Ruller.
- Regarding the "history" and progress. All from Armstrong through all notable swing, bepop, hardpop, etc players to Rosenwinkel, Kreisberg, Jesse van Ruller, there is a common, regardless of progress. We can call it legacy or language or whatever. All art develops, and has it periods. But we should have some tool to know what is development of jazz and what is something else. Being something new does not prove it is jazz. Listening that particular Longest Summer, there is no common with any of the listed above.
- Regarding the "energy". I just observed that is really nothing to do with jazz so lets not call it jazz, no energy. I just like to analyze that's all. But mentioning that, I think a really lost cause (really worth no energy) is defending Longest Summer as a music piece. I suggest to drop that particular piece, it is unwarrantable as significant. We can find better from PM
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Originally Posted by John A.
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Originally Posted by Gabor
What do you think about the idea, though, that jazz isn't only a tradition of musical ideas, but also of actual players, so that if, say, Charlie Parker or Miles Davis played something that "wasn't jazz" we'd still be strongly inclined to somehow link it to the jazz canon simply because of who played it? What Metheny did in that clip might not, alone, be "jazz" but I don't know many pop players who would have (could have?) produced that. Another issue might be, to what musical genre is a specific performance indebted? I think that Metheny clip is "indebted" to jazz, and has credibility because the player has a respected jazz reputation.
Admittedly that last is a bit of social-location mumble, but I do wonder if there is some license for including in the jazz universe performances that don't check the boxes simply because they are done by someone with very strong jazz identity.
Thoughts?
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Originally Posted by Gabor
Is "Longest Summer" jazz? If I really think about the question seriously, I don't think it's a straight yes/no answer. It's part of a longer work (Secret Story) in which Metheny recapitulates a whole bunch of his influences, interests, and directions including jazz. That particular piece is more from the non-jazz sources than some others on Secret Story. There are places on Secret story where his roots playing straight ahead jazz are a little more in evidence. But on balance, Metheny is a jazz musician and jazz is music made by jazz musicians, even the stuff that doesn't quite sound like it. Ultimately, though, I don't really care about categories. I play a bunch of stuff myself and don't get hung up on where to file it.
John
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