Can't get into Pat Metheny

[Robertkoa]

"think PM ( for me ) probably deserves the Genius title because he was asked to be on the UM Jazz Faculty at a very young age ."

That constitutes genius?
Um, ok

Yes - that is the precise mathematical equivalent of Genius as measured on a standard Genius Slide Rule or
Genius Laserometer Tool .

As soon as you program in the call from University of Miami for a professorship in the Genius chosen field at under age 20 the Laserometer goes into the Genius Zone ( the purple section).

Batteries not included.


Let's have a Poll of all of us who have been offered a full professorship in our chosen field by a major University while still in our teens .

Ready ....go.
Sign up now ! Before all the space is taken. To save space only reply if this HAS happened to you.

OK - maybe not a ' Genius ' but he must have impressed a lot of people right ?
So despite all the above- lol - your point is well taken -maybe Genius IS too strong a word = guilty.

[fep]

"think PM ( for me ) probably deserves the Genius title because he was asked to be on the UM Jazz Faculty at a very young age ."

That constitutes genius?
Um, ok

Yes, imo, that clearly constitutes genius by definition... "exceptional intellectual or creative power or other natural ability."

Offered a postion as a teenager! That has to be more rare than 1 out of a million in the general population... that certainly is exceptional to the genius degree cubed .

[Robertkoa]

Despite my smartass almost funny answer I think fep made a good point.

Exceptional - sure ...genius not too sure, a little too strong I think .
To each his own though- I think Fagen and Becker were Musical Geniuses - many might not. Also Metheny has lots of Grammys and huge record sales - so a lot of people think he's brilliant - no doubt about that.

I hope my math was right Metheny was teaching at UM at 18 or 19 right ?

[Marinero]

As a generalization, it's my opinion that those who like Metheney, McLaughlin and Ritenour probably first arrived in Music through the Rock door. Others, like myself, who played in R & B and Funk bands naturally gravitated to Wes, George Benson, Joe Pass, Grant Green, Pat Martino, Freddie Green, etc. I have never been able to listen to M, M and R's music. It does nothing for me. I want to be moved when I play or listen to music. Otherwise, why bother when there's some good caviar and Russian vodka waiting in the other room and some classic Wes on the turntable. Good playing . . . Marinero

[jbear]

Hey - a talented guy good Guitarist not a raw emotion Guitarist .... great Composer ...great Pop Guitarist..

Not a heavyweight badass like Benson or etc...

Like many Jazz Guitarists - he has a layer of hipness filter that dilutes raw emotion through his instrument TBH which although I appreciate Metheny's frankness about other Guitarists and Jazz Musicians but I wondered why he was so rough on Kenny G .

I first heard both of them on the smooth jazz Radio stations - and some of Metheny's stuff is definitely in that category and Kenny G can Play and has circular breathing

They both seem to be the same ilk or Genre ...I know Pat has embraced the Jazz Repertoire much more than Kenny G.

And I doubt seriously that Pat could outplay Kenny G ...regardless of material.


Do you Guys think Metheny could seriously challenge Kenny G on some Jazz Tunes ?

f
Seminar: "Spontaneous Combustion, Credibility, & the WTF Moment" Maybe unduly harsh, but like Pat or not..."that's some f***ed up repugnant ****."
A more realistic question would be how many cats on the planet can hang with Pat...in any genre?

[John A.]

As a generalization, it's my opinion that those who like Metheney, McLaughlin and Ritenour probably first arrived in Music through the Rock door. Others, like myself, who played in R & B and Funk bands naturally gravitated to Wes, George Benson, Joe Pass, Grant Green, Pat Martino, Freddie Green, etc. I have never been able to listen to M, M and R's music. It does nothing for me. I want to be moved when I play or listen to music. Otherwise, why bother when there's some good caviar and Russian vodka waiting in the other room and some classic Wes on the turntable. Good playing . . . Marinero

I doubt that's a valid generalization. I know many people who like all of the above, and arrived at jazz from various paths (myself included, though I've never really gotten into Lee Ritenour specifically).

John

[christianm77]

When the jazz police come knocking, just tell them that you only listen to horn players.

Then you don't have to deal with Metheny, AND you get street cred for being a self-loathing guitarist.

Win-win.

That’s the way!

‘Oh yeah, I’m way too cool to listen to guitar players.’

(Metheny makes the barbed comment in his Pasquale Grasso article about this haha)

[henryrobinett]

There was a mid 80s interview with him in Guitar Player. He hit the nail on the head himself. He said most guitar players just don’t get him. “Huh? I don’t get it.” He laughed. He can be an acquired taste and that’s totally fine. He’s not a shredder and not a bopper. I certainly don’t like everything. And at a certain point he started copying himself it seems to me. But I’ve always most admired originality. He’s that. He started all that.

BUT I think he’s an amazing force of nature. Regarding PM it’s not his guitar playing. It’s his overall music. And once again I’m not a fan of all of it. But I’m not a fan of ANYBODIES everything. My biggest heroes have songs or performances that leave me meh. But when PM first album came out it knocked me out. Nothing else like it at the time. So forward thinking. First Circle (the song), Off Ramp and bits and pieces of other songs.

He’s a composer. Those guitar players who aspire to be composers have a hard time avoiding him.

And mostly I admire his artistic control over his career. Few artists have that in jazz. Chick Corea. To have an organization, a team set up to just have the purpose to aid you to be a creative force. Wow. I really, REALLY admire all of that.


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[christianm77]

Well I don’t know about 10 years later all the jazz guitarists sounded like him

[christianm77]

I feel that Bright Size Life is still the template for the tone of like 90% of jazz guitarists.... including this one, tbh

[lawson-stone]

There was a mid 80s interview with him in Guitar Player. He hit the nail on the head himself. He said most guitar players just don’t get him. “Huh? I don’t get it.” He laughed. He can be an acquired taste and that’s totally fine. He’s not a shredder and not a bopper. I certainly don’t like everything. And at a certain point he started copying himself it seems to me. But I’ve always most admired originality. He’s that. He started all that.

BUT I think he’s an amazing force of nature. Regarding PM it’s not his guitar playing. It’s his overall music. And once again I’m not a fan of all of it. But I’m not a fan of ANYBODIES everything. My biggest heroes have songs or performances that leave me meh. But when PM first album came out it knocked me out. Nothing else like it at the time. So forward thinking. First Circle (the song), Off Ramp and bits and pieces of other songs.

He’s a composer. Those guitar players who aspire to be composers have a hard time avoiding him.

And mostly I admire his artistic control over his career. Few artists have that in jazz. Chick Corea. To have an organization, a team set up to just have the purpose to aid you to be a creative force. Wow. I really, REALLY admire all of that.


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Well said.

Seriously. The first time I heard "The First Circle" I was out jogging listening on headphones. When the song ended, I had to stop. I honestly had no idea what I had just encountered musically. I didn't know how to respond. It was like I'd been met by something that seemed familiar: acoustic guitars, voices, keyboards,synth, bass, percussion, all of that familiar to me... but all inhabited by something ganz anders, wholly other. That song captures something about Metheny's music for me.

Then there was "To the End of the World," "Half Life of Absolution," "Roots of Coincidence," "Third Wind," "The Gathering Sky"--he just has something big and enveloping going on.

He's the guitarist I listen to when I'm tired of the guitar.

[henryrobinett]

He's the guitarist I listen to when I'm tired of the guitar.

Yeah, well I don’t listen to as much guitar as I do some other instruments, so it’s all kind of fresh to me!


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[Litterick]

The miserablists of Montreal have something to say about this. Unfortunately nobody knows what it is.

[wintermoon]

I feel that Bright Size Life is still the template for the tone of like 90% of jazz guitarists.... including this one, tbh

Honestly, I don't hear any tone, it just sounds heavily processed and saturated w reverb.

If that's what 90% of the current players "tone" is like you can put me squarely in the other 10%.

[jameslovestal]

I doubt that's a valid generalization. I know many people who like all of the above, and arrived at jazz from various paths (myself included, though I've never really gotten into Lee Ritenour specifically).

John

The comment also wasn't an opinion but instead speculation about how others came to like certain styles of jazz. Unless one has actual data (e.g. polling data), one should generally avoid speculating about the views of others.

As for myself; I heard Beck's Blow-by-Blow and that got me interested in instrumental guitar music. Shortly after a jazz guitarist moved into the house I lived at with my Dad. One day I heard Body-Talk by Benson,,,, and from there Wes, Green, etc....

Now if that jazz guitarist hadn't moved in, I do see where one could say a more 'logical' path is from Beck to Ritenour, etc....(instrumental guitar music played on a solid body), than Beck to Wes, Green,,, etc..

So yea, 'arrived at jazz from various paths' is more likely to be the case for most of us (I assume, but, that is just my speculation!).

[henryrobinett]

Honestly, I don't hear any tone, it just sounds heavily processed and saturated w reverb.

If that's what 90% of the current players "tone" is like you can put me squarely in the other 10%.

Bright Size Life? No. You might be thinking of a later PM album. BSL is pretty naked compared to other things. I think the processing was ECM reverbs. I won’t say it’s dry but I don’t think so. Jaco sure.


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[henryrobinett]

Have you heard him play with Michael Brecker? I don’t know what you’re talking about.


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[Marinero]

"I do not believe it is necessary to be at an artist's skill level for your dislike of them to be valid, and for the dislike of prominent artists to not just be acceptable, but an important part of forming a musical identity. We don't have to like everyone we hear.... And if we liked every player we heard equally we would have no style ourselves. I get tired of the bland positivity exhibited by many." Christinan77

Yes. And, also . . . in life, we need to coalesce our ideas, experiences and subjective analyses when thinking about music and musicians. When I mentioned earlier that many guitarists like Metheny came from a Rock background, it comes from all of the above. I hear it in the licks of his Music, the feel of his personal expression and, to me, the tameness and sameness of most of his improvisations. You don't hear that in Pass, Martino, or Benson. Thanks to all who like apples when others prefer oranges. Good playing . . . Marinero

[Litterick]

He always seems to be enjoying himself.

[rmpmcdermott]

Just dropping in to to voice my own controversial opinion...

This is my favorite Metheny recording.

*ducks*

[zdub]

Just dropping in to to voice my own controversial opinion...

This is my favorite Metheny recording.

*ducks*

I don't have A PM favorite, but that is definitely one of a bunch that are. For those that don't know, Brooklyn Academy of Music commissioned Reich to write this for Metheny.

------------------------------

A cover I like (hey it's not even two minutes, give it a listen!):

[rmpmcdermott]

I don't have A PM favorite, but that is definitely one of a bunch that are. For those that don't know, Brooklyn Academy of Music commissioned Reich to write this for Metheny.

------------------------------

A cover I like (hey it's not even two minutes, give it a listen!):

I love BSL, too. But as someone who works more in the experimental/"downtown" style, I was so stoked to see Metheny had collaborated with Reich. I'm really hit or miss with Metheny, and I know he comes off as arrogant, but he totally gave himself over to Reich on this one.

[grahambop]

The phrase ‘zero tolerance for silence’ comes to mind, I don’t know why...

[guavajelly]

He always seems to be enjoying himself.

... and play with fire. Metheny's music introduced me into Jazz and I'll be always grateful for that. As a musician, a composer and musical conceptionist he's so versatile that it is virtually impossible to like all his projects and records. I admire that.

And as a guitar player? Just wow!

[henryrobinett]

Why not? Music isn’t a secret thing. Most people WANT people to know. It’s called promotion.

I too like people with big egos, unless they’re unhealthy big egos. Those guys who want to squash others as opposed to those who just believe in themselves.


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