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It seems that Miles left Bill Evans' name off of not just "Blue in Green", but also as co-composer of "Flamenco Sketches".
He also didn't seem to think too highly of Miles' music in the late 60s, when Miles was trying to reach a "larger audience".
Bill Evans on Miles Davis and Kind of Blue – Allan Chase – Jazz Pedagogy, History, Improvisation
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05-19-2019 03:14 AM
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That was terrific, thanks.
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"For people that are considered to be the most unstable, undisciplined members of society, the fact is that they bring to bear a kind of a discipline on their work that is practically unparalleled."
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Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
Unstable and undisciplined? Well, Miles, Trane, and Evans were all heroin addicts, and there was smoking, drinking womanizing etc. They all died years - even decades - earlier than they might have, had they lived a clean and healthy lifestyle. But that's boring for a jazzer. That type of person is deemed a "square" in jazz circles.
The truth as I have observed it is that musicians and artists are often world wise in some ways and yet very sheltered and clueless in other ways - and that's the educated ones.
Bill Evans never secured his medical license, never passed the bar, was never a CPA, etc. those are all very tough to achieve and require constant maintenance to keep. Being a great musician does indeed require discipline, but "unparalleled"? No way, Jose.
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Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
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I agree that he was referring to jazz musicians and the act of improvisation.
But he said that they bring a discipline to bear on their work. Meaning, "the work" is improv, and the discipline is being brought to bear on it. In that vein I think it has a great deal to do with preparation.
In either case, I'm a fan, but I think his statement was an exaggeration. At that stage he had kicked heroin, but was a coke head. The coke heads that I've known were certainly prone to exaggeration, to say the least. So in fact, I would go beyond saying that he exaggerated to say that he was actually arguing against himself.
Why? Because despite being handicapped and certainly not at their very best, Bird, Trane, Miles, Evans, and others were able to function at a high musical level with a heroin addiction. That would not be the case for the professions that I referred to above, and the same goes for many other professions, mine being just one of them (Engineering Management).
So that would seem to say less for the demands of being a jazz musician (or at least one who already has mastered the art), as opposed to more.
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"Being myself is the only place to be."
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Lester Bowie interview's good too - anybody find the link to the Jimmy Cobb one? Scrolled through (& used the search function) on philschaapjazz.com but couldn't see it...
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The Ashley Kahn book about Kind of Blue is very good. His follow up book on A Love Supreme less good IMO.
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a shout out to my favorite radio station, WKCR! Few Radio Stations came close to what WKCR does for jazz, and other music (they also had a Bach festival, and played really interesting new classical music).
I mean, WBGO plays jazz 24/7--but the quality of the programming never reached the heights of WKCR--and it's all college run (just about everything was live--unless they told you it was a rebroadcast to air an earlier interview--like the one with Miles here)
I even miss Phil Shaap. Yes, he could be long winded, but I remember listening to Bird Flight as I got ready to go to school in the morning.
And no one celebrates Coltrane like WKCR... you can stream them at WKCR.org
I'll say this, as well. Los Angeles needs to work on their jazz radio. If you drive up to San Diego from LA, and you tune into San Diego's college radio (someone help me here with the name), the difference is night and day. It's a shame because there's still a lot of great jazz coming out of LA.
I'm impressed with Washington State's offerings, especially jazz24.org. I think that they capture the spirit of WKCR, even though it has more parallels to WBGO (especially with it's connection to NPR)
Sorry to side track the OP, just wanted to spotlight WKCR to those that weren't in the know. I have to check out their Miles festival again.
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Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
I also happen to think that the art of jazz improvisation at the highest levels is either at, or at least very near, the top of all human artistic/creative endeavour. Happy to hear form those that disagree.
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Jazz is not engineering, medicine or law, all of which are codified to the nth degree. Jazz is the sound of now. Drug use is a pathway into the deeper aspects of creativity, something engineering, law and medicine avoid. Drinking and womanizing are certainly not limited to jazz musicians, by the way.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
On the second point please reread. This was about a "practically unparalleled discipline", not creativity.
In my view, Evans - an addict, was being defensive. Disciplined? Absolutely. But unparalleled? BS.
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Originally Posted by ronjazz
I don't believe that cocaine offers such benefits. I've heard that heroin has a more powerful kick than everything else. But it's an opiate so would I would think that it would render one quite impaired.
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Like classical musicians, or high level athletes, I think the discipline of world class level jazz players is way more demanding and time consuming than that of medicine, law, engineering and similar professions. It's an all day, every day kind of thing.
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Bill's quote had contextual reference with Japanese drawing technique that as well as jazz requires a lot of artistic discipline becasue if you push too much you wil tear up the paper.
It is definitely about ARTISTIC EFFORTS AND DISCIPLINE. it is about the subtlelty of jazz performance art and discipline required to control the balance, to stay always at the point where you completely realize your artistic individuality without 'tearing up the paper'.
(by the way I am sure that any additional stimulation - like drugs, liqours, women, gamgling, parachoute jumps, Finnish sauna etc. - are nothing in comparison of tool to control and change the perception that art gives)
I would say that RISK is one of the copmpounds of any true art, but in jazz it has expecially direct meaning. You real RISK it all.
Perception of time changes during performance of any music, but in jazz the momentary thing really becomes sensible as if you can touch.
You really need a lot of control to keep it all together.Last edited by Jonah; 05-20-2019 at 10:59 AM.
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Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
John
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Originally Posted by Irez87
And they generally play vinyl recordings, so you don't hear the slick, overly produced CDs that you always hear on BGO.
KCR definitely has a strong black bias; if you're looking to hear white musicians' music, the only people you'll hear are occasional Bill Evans records, and a few other artists, like Chet Baker, Jim Hall, Bix Bierderbecke, Frank Trumbauer, Benny Goodman, and anyone else that Phil Schaap thinks fits into the history of jazz.
I think this has something to do with the charter they have with Columbia University, which tells them what their emphasis should be.
When Phil Woods died, they realized they had only one record of him as a leader (he has probably 100 albums where he was either the leader, or the featured artist!), and they wound up playing that same record, over and over again! The only other things they had of him were when he was a sideman with major black artists; the Monk Big Band album, Oliver Nelson albums, Benny Carter albums, Quincy Jones albums from the 50s and 60s, and the Dizzy Gillespie big band albums of the 50s. Phil Schaap didn't even know who he was until Woods started calling the station to offer information on some records, back in the 90s!
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bias or not, KCR is and will always be my favorite.
I did a thread on jazz radio a while back, maybe we should revive it?
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Originally Posted by sgcim
John
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Jazz Alternatives at night doesn't play all historical jazz, and neither does Daybreak Express (especially so). Those shows played more modern jazz.
I think you have to give KCR more credit. I especially love listening to the newer DJ's get all excited and fumble through their words as they introduce the next song. I think KCR is college radio at its best.
KJazz in LA had one saving grace, Gordon Goodwin. If I had to hear "Grab your coat, and grab your hat" one more time... Steve Tyrell ruined that song for me, and Sunny Side of the Street is a GREAT song. 90% of what he played was sanguine bubble gum. I would scream at the radio to at least play some real singers, like Ella or Lady Day. Yuck. And I just found out that Steve Tyrell is white...
I used to think Phil Shaap was black, I was really surprised to find out he was a nerdy white guy. For all of his longwindedness, listening to his show helped me appreciate Bird even more.
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Originally Posted by Irez87
I think Phil is great, truly. He has documented an amazing amount of music and oral history that otherwise would be lost. But there are times when I yell at the radio to shut the eff up and play a goddam record already.
John
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HAAAA! Me too!
He likes the sound of his voice, methinks
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My takeaway from the interview, I really liked the 'Late Arrival' vs 'Early Arrival' concept. The struggle to establish yourself in music can lead to deeper results, when you are forced to work harder and dig deeper. BE hinted that early in his career Miles kinda sucked technically, and that forced him to find his own voice. I think Miles had musical ideas that showed even through rough technique and that what kept him going.
Versus some prodigies who developed earlier, had great facilities on their instruments but not necessarily had something to say musically.
I don't hear much people talking about that, so it was very interesting and enlightening. I agree with this point of view too.
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