View Poll Results: GRANT or WES
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- 45. You may not vote on this poll
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Someone school me on something. As far as I know, Benson played a couple of times with Green in casual sessions, never on stage, never recorded anything. I don't think they were close friends, just mutual admirers and acquaintances. Apparently Green died while in New York to play at a club owned by GB.
I'm not aware that Benson or Green ever played with Wes.
I think I remember reading that Green had a bit of a rivalry with Montgomery and may have been somewhat dismayed at the latter's commercial success.
Anyway, if I'm wrong let me know.
A session like the Kessel-Burrell-Green video featuring WM, GG and GB would be fantastic.
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08-24-2017 04:47 PM
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GG and WM were rivals. I was watching a GB interview on YouTube were he said he was at a GG gig listening to Grant and turned around and there was Wes standing there behind him listening. Benson always says musicians steal from everybody.
Herb Ellis had always said he and Barney Kessel were rivals. Doesn't mean they didn't have respect.
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green has an edge i like...like hes walking a tightrope...wes was master, but he laid down a lot of schmaltz as well...(creed taylor productions)
i hate to compare.... two greats...but ultimately, i listen to more grant green
cheers
ps- benson kinda falls in between them both...
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A true "rivalry" has to be based on a mutual respect, imho.
Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
If someone said I could only listen to one for the rest of my life, I'd pick GG, but that's no easy choice.
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I hear Grant Green:
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freddy!! no doubt Originally Posted by TOMMO
hah
that's gatemouth brown on the ric... behind freddy...gate was musical director of texas tv show-the beat
cheers
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of course oscar was pre grant...but thats one of the oddest recordings...just oscar and the great walking bassist leroy vinnegar..but oscar overdubs guitar over guitar...and the old school recording/syncing is less than stellar Originally Posted by destinytot
very wobbly...haha
love oscar tho
cheers
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Both incredible talents sadly cut short by there addictions.
Wes 45 and Grant 43.
BTW nicotine killed Nat King Cole at 45 also. Just because it is legal doesn't mean it isn't as dangerous as smack.
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I had to vote for Wes, but I really like GG a lot too. I like the fact that Grant made some great Blue Notes (Idle Moments, Solid, Matador) which have the edge over some of Wes' records just for the line-up, e.g. Joe Henderson, McCoy Tyner, Bobby Hutcherson, Elvin Jones. It would have been great to hear Wes with those guys.
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This question has been around for a long time. For instance the biography of Green by his son's (ex?) wife is practically an exercise in trying to prove Green was as good as Wes despite all the critics preferring Wes.
I don't think there's really a lot of room to dispute that Wes was a more complete and sophisticated player than Green who pushed artistic and technical boundaries more than Green did. But not everybody prefers that all the time.
John
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I think that both players grow out of Charlie Christians legacy in different ways. Wes' playing has more harmonic rigour, dynamic texture and just overall variation - which to me in part speaks of his natural affinity with arranged and orchestrated music and all of the harmonic/textural awareness that goes with that. Wes vs Django - that would be a test!
GG was never as demonstrative to me, but I just love "Solid" where he just gives us all a lesson in what a classy player he was.
I think what Green has , and you can hear this on Ezzthetic (Love for Sale) is the ability to keep his tone and time consistent over the whole solo at a brisk tempo. Wes was incredibly funky and endlessly creative but when the tempo crept up, his time and articulation could get pretty slippery and dirty. Green maintains this elegant simplicity regardless of what is thrown at him.
Chalk and cheese as we say in this part of the world. Somehow I think Wes was, because Green was - and vice versa.
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Attachment 45231
The L5 Wes IS my favorite guitar !Last edited by vinnyv1k; 08-24-2017 at 07:59 PM.
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I love Wes and he's the reason I play jazz guitar, but I think Grant put himself in much hipper situations in general, in terms of the records he made and who he made them with. Not to fault any of Wes' sidemen, but how many different heavy rhythm sections did Grant record with?
Tyner/Cranshaw/Elvin Jones
Kelly/Chambers/Philly Joe Jones
Hancock/Warren/Higgins
Clark/Jones/Hayes
Hutcherson/Young/Elvin Jones
Hancock/Workman/Higgins
and that's just like the top top shelf cats, and I am not even counting sideman dates like "Search For The New Land". When you look at Wes' legacy, which again I love, the rhythm sections are just not this iconic or varied. Certainly Sam Jones/Louis Hayes and Kelly/Chambers/Philly Joe, and the Heath Brothers.
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Wes played with: Originally Posted by pcsanwald
Kelly/Cobb/Chambers (my vote for hippest section evuh)
Cobb/Chambers/Flanagan
Ron Carter/Grady Tate
Jimmy Smith/Tate
Elvin Jones/Jimmy Garrison/McCoy Tyner (not recorded, though)
Kelly/Jones/Jones/Milt Jackson
Montgomery Brothers/George Shearing
Harold Mabern (I forget who the bassist and drummer were)
That's some pretty heavy and varied sections.Last edited by John A.; 08-25-2017 at 12:31 AM.
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I think Wes was probably the objectively stronger player, but I prefer Grant.
Although Grant recorded prolifically, I believe that was largely due to his heroin habit and his reputation for working at below his fair market value. But still, I think I prefer Grant.
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Wes's tasty 'contiguous II Vs' put him on top.
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Pat Martino always tells this story on his concerts about how he would go and see his heroes after his own gig. One day the great Wes Montgomery was in town, so he would go to see him. When he entered the club he saw George and Grant had also joined the audience. What a fantastic assembly of truly great guitarists that must have been!
As for the choice: I can't make that, I love both Wes and Grant; Wes for the smooth melodic lines and great harmonies, Grant for his more direct, un-polished and rhythmic approach. When I think of Wes I think of beautiful meaningful lines where every note makes a statement and makes me feel euphoric. When I think of Grant I think of raw driving energy that takes me places. I have listened to their music so much, it's like I know them.... I thank them for that!
As a little side-note: sax player of my band was a friend of the Green-family in New York! Although he mostly remembers that Grant was never there working or touring, Grant would visit his house sometimes to visit his father (composer Cal Massey). So he actually met Grant Green when he was young! How cool is that!
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Track 5 Various - Together - The Eastbound Jazz Years (CD) at Discogs (looks like there are 7 copies for sale). Originally Posted by djg
Last edited by destinytot; 08-25-2017 at 05:26 AM.
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Wes. Actually I don't think there's much comparison. Grant Green was very prolific, probably too prolific. He seemed to do album after album but his stuff never quite hit the spot for me. I don't know about monotonous exactly but that's probably what I mean. Wes leapt out, he generated excitement and originality, and you can't beat that.
Anyway, comparisons are odious.
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This is not easy for me. I grew up a few years after these guys were big. One thing I can say, George grew up on both of these guys and took it to another level. But if I had to pick one, I'd have to side with Grant.
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Can't really vote over one of these two, as they both are personal favorites. For me Wes, besides the octaves contribution to the jazz guitar vocabulary, is a true pioneer of how to apply jazz improv on the guitar, fretboard movement and harmonically wise. Grant Green on the other hand, besides the awesome sound and time is so great at the "folk", blues and gospel part of jazz playing, and so hip to listen to! I ll probably be listening to both for as long as ears work
Last edited by Alter; 08-25-2017 at 03:08 PM.
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Yep , not to mention the Brothers with a young Billy Hart. Originally Posted by John A.
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In Grant Green's biography (his daughter authored it) I read where either Orrin Keepnews or Leanord Feather, or somebody like that, said something to this effect:
Wes always sounded like he was showing the listener what he had been working on; Grant was more concerned about telling a story, moving the listener with the beauty of the song he was playing. He also referred to Grant Green as a "singer guitarist". I know what he's talking about.
I also read an interview with George Benson, close friends with both Wes and Grant. George said he could never do what Grant Green did. I'm not sure he ever said the same about Wes.
Btw, the quartet recording he did with Sonny Clark, that finally got released decades after it was recorded, is what won me over to Grant Green. Check it out if you haven't.Last edited by El Fundo; 08-25-2017 at 11:20 AM.
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My friend arranged this opportunity - by kind and generous favour of the Godfathers of Groove - for his (then) 9 nine-year-old godson to meet and sit in with the band:
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