Jim Hall's Chord Comping

[rpjazzguitar]

I fell in love with Jim Hall's comping when I heard Glad To Unhappy with Paul Desmond. I transcribed a few things but I never really appreciated something about how he got his sound.

He did more with two strings than most players. It's not unusual for a player to play 3rds and b7s on the D and G strings, but Jim Hall often used the G and B strings. You also hear him hold a note on the high E and passing a note downward on the B string. He did that often, and with different harmonies.

He also used D and G, while generally maintaining a sparse sound.

When he played fuller chords, they were generally, to my ear, the upper 4 strings and, often, in the upper register. He was brilliant at filling empty space with chords that sound, somehow, cascading, for want of a better description.

Playing this way requires a full understanding of the notes in the chords, where they are on the neck, and being able to think of fragments rather than fuller grips.

I'd even suggest a way to practice it. Use Irealpro (or similar) for backing tracks and turn off the piano. then, with just drums and bass, try to comp standards (not too fast) on groups of 2 strings, emphasizing the G-B pair.

So, for example, if the chords are Gm7 C7, try xxx76x to xxx55x (or xxx33x or xxx75x or ???).
If it resolves to Fmaj7, try xxx55x (sure, same as for C7, but the bassist will take care of it). etc.

[Greentone]

You are right on the money. Hall was very good at staying out of the other guy's lane.

Most of us learn to comp in our bedrooms, sitting on the edge of the bed, strumming away. Things sound great--in that setting--on the lower three or four strings. In a group setting--trio or quartet--you are going to be in the bassist's and/or pianist's lane if you camp out on the lower four strings.

By playing on the inner two strings (D and G), or the G and B, or the B and E strings, or by hewing to the upper four strings, you end up chording in the tenor rather than baritone region. You (1) cut through easily, and (2) give a wide berth to the rest of the rhythm section.

Hall's spare style is wonderful. For the full PhD thesis on this comping style, check out Freddie Green with the Count Basie Groups. It's different music than Hall--swing, rather than post-bop--but the concept is fully fleshed there. Green would even play one string comps, sometimes. Two strings, routinely. Three strings if they sent a posse out after him. Smooth as silk. Less space than Hall--after all, he was driving the rhythm section of a big horn band.

[Sam Sherry]

For the full PhD thesis on this comping style, check out Freddie Green with the Count Basie Groups

You know, all these months and years and it never dawned on me that your handle could be referring to "the other Green."

Anyway, nicely said!

[Greentone]

Greentone is a double-entendre. I grew up as a big fan of Freddie Green (thanks to dad) and Grant Green (my own discovery). The handle is definitely a reference to both guys. Freddie was THE master of rhythm--none finer. Grant was the master of the funk-infused bop, horn line on the guitar. (Also, I grew up digging the bejabbers out of all of those Blue Note records that featured either Grant Green or Kenny Burrell on the guitar. Those records were the funkiest, bluesiest jazz albums of all time.)

[rpjazzguitar]

I've listened to Freddie a fair amount, both with Basie and on a two piano small group album with Basie and Oscar iifc.

Sounds like Freddie used the lower strings to good advantage. I'd imagine that it worked so well because of the tight connection with the bassist. I came to think of Freddie as a kind of harmonic edge to the bass. And yet, never in the way. No mud. His tone, which wasn't boomy and was percussive (more stacatto) clearly is part of it.

I think it was Jim Hall who said "if you pruned the tree of jazz to one player, it would be Freddie Green".

Jim, in contrast, is an electric player, using sustain, playing in the higher register, and not trying to be a harmonic/percussive edge to the bass. He was content to let simple bass parts and spare drum parts carry the groove while suggested harmony with double stops, guide tones and the occasional chord played up high.

Who else should be in a discussion of refined jazz comping technique along with these two? Van Eps?

You are right on the money. Hall was very good at staying out of the other guy's lane.

Most of us learn to comp in our bedrooms, sitting on the edge of the bed, strumming away. Things sound great--in that setting--on the lower three or four strings. In a group setting--trio or quartet--you are going to be in the bassist's and/or pianist's lane if you camp out on the lower four strings.

By playing on the inner two strings (D and G), or the G and B, or the B and E strings, or by hewing to the upper four strings, you end up chording in the tenor rather than baritone region. You (1) cut through easily, and (2) give a wide berth to the rest of the rhythm section.

Hall's spare style is wonderful. For the full PhD thesis on this comping style, check out Freddie Green with the Count Basie Groups. It's different music than Hall--swing, rather than post-bop--but the concept is fully fleshed there. Green would even play one string comps, sometimes. Two strings, routinely. Three strings if they sent a posse out after him. Smooth as silk. Less space than Hall--after all, he was driving the rhythm section of a big horn band.

[Greentone]

Well said, RP.

To riff on Mr. Hall: "if you pruned the tree of jazz to two players, it would be Freddie Green and Jim Hall."

#3?

[rpjazzguitar]

I studied, decades ago, with a retired big band guitarist named Sid Margolies. Sid was in awe of Van Eps. As I understand it, Van Eps was the Man to players in that era. Apparently, Allan Reuss was another one.

I don't know who else belongs in that line.

But, among the players I've heard live, there are only a couple I'd mention as belonging in a discussion of incredibly innovative comping.

Both are Brazilian. One is Guinga, whose harmonic technique is astonishing. Mostly, he plays his own music, but he knows American standards too, and can play them like he wrote them.

The second is Chico Pinheiro, who can drive a group from the guitar chair more powerfully than I thought was possible. He's based partly in NYC now, and is worth hearing, especially with his own groups.

There are so many great players, I hate to pick out just a few -- so I limited this to the players I have heard live.

[mr. beaumont]

Jim''s comping is brilliant. He took at lot of chances, too. A lot of times, you'll heard him move a shape around and create a counter-melody with the top note...the other notes? Happy accidents, sometimes. Jim never just played the chords to a tune, his comping was always a true second line.

[rpjazzguitar]

In that respect, Jim's comping is very much like many pianists, although pianists tend to use more notes. Especially, piano behind singers on ballads.

The similarity is in the creation of a second part/countermelody.

So, Jim was at his best in a small group with no piano.

Does anybody know who Jim was listening to when he developed his style?

[fasstrack]

I studied, decades ago, with a retired big band guitarist named Sid Margolies.

That's amazing! I remember Sid, and his wife b/c I used to take lessons as a teen with Carl Barry at the Sid Margolies Studio on Kings Highway in Brooklyn. This would be around 1972. I never heard him play, but what a sweet man he was. I remember he had a sort of limp, possibly from a stroke?

Wow, talk about a small world...

[fasstrack]

Both are Brazilian. One is Guinga, whose harmonic technique is astonishing. Mostly, he plays his own music, but he knows American standards too, and can play them like he wrote them.

The second is Chico Pinheiro, who can drive a group from the guitar chair more powerfully than I thought was possible. He's based partly in NYC now, and is worth hearing, especially with his own groups.

There are so many great players, I hate to pick out just a few -- so I limited this to the players I have heard live.

Let's not forget Joao (sp?) Gilberto, still with us and one of the great rhythm players in ANY style, but a trend-setter for the Brasilians that followed him. He was the ultimate in relaxation, and that's what rhythm guitar IS. Ditto for his singing. Like Miles Davis said, he would sound good reading a newspaper...

[neatomic]

Jim never just played the chords to a tune, his comping was always a true second line.

absolutely!...on his first recordings with the chico hamilton quintet he already had a unique chordal voice...his work with the great jimmy giuffre trios expanded precisely on quote above^...the trio was about dialog, rather than just comping below the solo...interwoven lines...very much like classical chamber music

halls major early icon was charlie christian..and you can hear that in some of his playing, but he also took his playing elsewhere...i've always considered hall one of the first modern jazz guitar players..and his influence still runs clear, through guys like john abercrombie, brad shepik, etc etc

a true great

cheers

[paulkogut]

When Jim was studying composition at the Cleveland Institute of Music in the '50's, he said he didn't have regular access to a piano, and had to work out his assignments on the guitar. He credited that as getting him started hearing the possibilities of more than just block chords for comping....

PK

[rpjazzguitar]

That's amazing! I remember Sid, and his wife b/c I used to take lessons as a teen with Carl Barry at the Sid Margolies Studio on Kings Highway in Brooklyn. This would be around 1972. I never heard him play, but what a sweet man he was. I remember he had a sort of limp, possibly from a stroke?

Wow, talk about a small world...

I studied with Sid from about 1964 to 1966 and with Carl a few years later. Both great. Carl is still around, but Sid passed away some years ago.

Sid had a late 30's L5, no cutaway, when I took lessons from him. I recall it as so resonant it sounded like it had reverb. Carl played a D'angelico which also had a great sound. Jack Wilkins taught there at the same time.

Looking back, I realize that the studio was populated with top jazz players. Sid was the guy who did chord solos on the Arthur Godfrey radio show when it was popular. Carl and Jack are well known to guitarists.

That's New York for you. Sid's studio wasn't known as a mecca for aspiring jazz players. Rather, it was just the local music school where all the kids went in a Brooklyn neighborhood.

If it triggers any memories, I taught at Buddy's near Coney Island avenue for several years.

[Cunamara]

Jim Hall kind of always comps- even when he is soloing, he is still in a way comping with the bass and drums. Whatever he plays is always tied to what is going on around him.

Funny story with that which in my memory is attributed to Don Thompson, but maybe it was Terry Clark. Apparently when Jim Hall was playing at- I think- Bourbon Street in Toronto, the waitstaff brought out a cake and sang Happy Birthday to one of the patrons- right in the middle of Hall's solo! He worked Happy Birthday into what he was playing...

[neatomic]

Funny story with that which in my memory is attributed to Don Thompson, but maybe it was Terry Clark. Apparently when Jim Hall was playing at- I think- Bourbon Street in Toronto, the waitstaff brought out a cake and sang Happy Birthday to one of the patrons- right in the middle of Hall's solo! He worked Happy Birthday into what he was playing...

that's the jimmy giuffre mentality right there!! be in the moment at all times... why he & hall hit it off so well..for years!!..giuffre was a master

cheers

[Greentone]

Two of my favorite albums that I listened to repeatedly during my university years were (1) The Jimmy Giuffre 3 (1957)--Jimmy Giuffre (sax, clarinet), Jim Hall (guitar), Ralph Pena (bass), and (2) Trav'lin Light The Jimmy Giuffre 3 (1958)--Giuffre (sax, clarinet), Hall (guitar), Bob Brookmeyer (valve trombone). These albums display Jim Hall's interplay with Giuffre and the development of Hall's comping/soloing style to a tee.

[Rob MacKillop]

When it comes to great sax players, Giuffre's name doesn't get as much mention as the biggest names, but from what I've heard of him he seems to have been a unique voice in jazz, consistently interesting, searching, and a great ensemble player, qualities shared by his first choice guitar player. I must read up on his biography, as I know next to nothing about him.

[Sam Sherry]

Giuffre . . . seems to have been a unique voice in jazz, consistently interesting, searching, and a great ensemble player, qualities shared by his first choice guitar player. I must read up on his biography, as I know next to nothing about him.

Jimmy Giuffre was my ensemble director when I got to college. Even as an 18-year-old idiot I could tell that:

. He was nice.
. He was Texas droll.
. He didn't puff up. I don't recall him telling a single 'me and xxx' war story.
. He taught by example rather than by direction.
. He had enormous patience for 18-year-old fools.

I am lucky to have worked with him -- a lot luckier than I realized at the time.

[neatomic]

two great ones greentone...i'd ad this giuffre/hall/brookmeyer...western suite

been listening to these regularly for years...(2 in the last week)...joyous music..totally cerebral yet still toe tapping

rob you are in for a treat!! giuffre was huge influence on van morrison as well..not only on vans own sax playing but also his breathy soulful vocal phrasing

cheers

[wintermoon]

the fact that Hall made a couple duo albums w/Bill Evans speaks volumes about his comping.

[Alter]

i think his albums with sonny rollins, the way he comps and gets involved with the chords were a major departure from the piano-like block chord style comping that was popular at the time, and became a part of jazz guitar language. The way he plays, simple motifs, a lot of guide tone voicings in the middle strings with small melodies on the top strings, its so minimal and musical, and lends itself beautifully to an instrument like the guitar. For motifs, melodies, and interactive playing you can't do better than Jim Hall.

His duo recordings with Red Mitchell are great too.

[neatomic]

the fact that Hall made a couple duo albums w/Bill Evans speaks volumes about his comping.

excellent point!!

but also his non comping!! his ability to keep out of the way of bill evans great left hand!! hah...again, that playing at full throttle, but keeping out of the way of your fellow musician (whos' doing the same) was a very jimmy giuffre concept

very classical...giuffre studied with dr wesley laviolette...obscure but maverick thinker/author/composer/teacher of music...merged jazz, classical and the spiritual..very heavy cat!! especially for 1940's & 50's ...giuffre always praised him

cheers

[wintermoon]

i think his albums with sonny rollins, the way he comps and gets involved with the chords were a major departure from the piano-like block chord style comping that was popular at the time, and became a part of jazz guitar language. The way he plays, simple motifs, a lot of guide tone voicings in the middle strings with small melodies on the top strings, its so minimal and musical, and lends itself beautifully to an instrument like the guitar. For motifs, melodies, and interactive playing you can't do better than Jim Hall.

His duo recordings with Red Mitchell are great too.

[whiskey02]

I found this a while ago, lots of good info I think.
Jim Hall’s Comping on “Days Of Wine And Roses” (A Jazz Notebook)