Wes Montgomery's Upwards Rake?

[Rob MacKillop]

I've spent the last half hour experimenting with Wes's thumb technique. Down strokes and downward rakes are okay, and while upward strokes are harder, upward rakes seem utterly impossible. How did he play a line like this?

--8--6------------
--------6-------
-----------6-5--
------------------
-------------------

I hope that attempt at a graphic works out. The last two notes are downward slide.

[Shadow of the Sun]

I remember hearing George Benson or some other big jazz cat mention that Wes had a big corn or callus on his thumb, which might make raking like that more doable.

I do think it's entirely possible that Wes just badass'd it and did it all downstrokes, though. Dude's technique was insane.

[paulkogut]

Over a Bbm7 chord? Do you have a specific recording where he's playing that line? If you change the second note of the phrase from an Bb on the E string to a Ab on the B string, you have a line that's playable without the rake, just downstrokes and pull-offs.

PK

[Rob MacKillop]

Thanks. I don't have a citation for Wes playing that line. It's just a cliche Bbm9 run. I just found it impossible to articulate with an upward rake.

[paulkogut]

I think a lot of the cliche 'rakes' in standard jazz vocabulary were re-fingered by Wes to be 2-note per string pull-offs. I've been 'all-thumb' for the last 10 years or so, if I really had to play your lick as is, I would reverse rake with i or m.

PK

[plasticpigeon]

Ask Jim Mullen!

[EGad]

I think a lot of the cliche 'rakes' in standard jazz vocabulary were re-fingered by Wes to be 2-note per string pull-offs. I've been 'all-thumb' for the last 10 years or so, if I really had to play your lick as is, I would reverse rake with i or m.

PK

Yes, I, too, reverse rake with index finger. I guess the question of what Wes did remains. (Note to self: Potential million dollar bumper sticker idea: WWWD? (What Would Wes Do?))

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[plasticpigeon]

So brilliant, but so self effacing. Jim Mullen talks a little about technique here. He says he uses all downstrokes. Seems to work for him,

Then he says Wes used both up and down. Maybe this video of Wes proves that assertion right. What a camera angle!

[Rob MacKillop]

Man, wasn't he brilliant!

[silverfoxx]

Man, wasn't he brilliant!

Yes Rob he certainly was. accompanied there. as you probably know by
the late pianist Stan Tracey,
Wes was actually staying over at my late Tutor's house at that period 1965 ( way before my time )
when asked by my Tutor , what's the opening chord he used for ATTYA he replied
"don't know man, I just cool " which was an understatement. Although that was 20 years too early
for me. I had the privilege, of meeting a number of Jazz megastars later .Joe Pass, Barney.
Louis Stewart etc.etc, I wish some of that genius had rubbed off on me ! sigh

[Rob MacKillop]

Well, I think you are a genius!

[christianm77]

I can't claim to have examined a huge amount of Wes, but I've not heard Wes play an upward rake from anything I've looked at of his. Happy to be proven wrong....

Same with Jim.

I'm not a thumb guy, but I am a DWPS player. I rarely if ever use upsweeps in improvisation. It's the same with Django.

So unless there are specific examples ... maybe this is not something he did?

Not everyone plays everything.

[christianm77]

So brilliant, but so self effacing. Jim Mullen talks a little about technique here. He says he uses all downstrokes. Seems to work for him,

Then he says Wes used both up and down. Maybe this video of Wes proves that assertion right. What a camera angle!

That is truly amazing. It does seem as if Wes is playing up strokes with his thumb here - the notes sound articulated.

Also - isn't this solo the same period as Smokin' at the Half Note? I recognise that wicked whole tone lick at 0:47. A comparison of the solos would be interesting.

I would describe Wes's technique as basically the same as Django's, and similar to mine mechanically therefore. Except - no pick.

Downstrokes on each new string, raking on consecutive string descending, upstrokes after downstrokes on the same string, no upsweeps. Rest strokes on each downstroke, free strokes on the upstroke. What we would call gypsy picking and/or Benson picking.

So upsweeps are impractical here because of the escape angle of the upstrokes coming out of the strings. Setting aside the weirdness of using the thumb, Wes would have to reorient his hand to physically allow an upstroke. But, he did play upstrums, so hmmm...

Anyway, I would say that Wes possibly NEVER played an articulated upsweep based on this. You are invited to prove theory wrong!

[Rob MacKillop]

Haha, you could be right, Christian. I'm in no position to argue.

[christianm77]

Haha, you could be right, Christian. I'm in no position to argue.

Another excellent way to get me to shut up! :-)

[neatomic]

never underestimate physics..or would it be biology???..wes had a good sized thumb...remember he was pivoting the fingers of his right hand on the guitar top beyond the pickguard...(why his guitars had a nameplate in that spot)....and then using his thumb..that's a large stretch!..but an integral part of why he sounds exactly like he does



completely idiosyncratic... like django...missing fingers is the reason behind his distinctive sound..totally unique...and wonderful, despite his youthful tragedy



cheers

[Alter]

its not that difficult to play it once you get used to playing regular upstrokes with the thumb. Keys to doing that are having a really short nail on the thumb, and positioning the thumb the way wes does, so it hits the strings with its center. This way upstrokes are played with the upper/external side of the thumb with no nail contact.

I used to be able to play them, but leaving a long nail for nylon strings i had to change my take on them. So these days i fold the thumb and use the nail to play them. The sound isn't really what is should be, but i can get the notes

[Rob MacKillop]

I not sure I'll adopt the technique, but I do love the sound Wes and Jim get, so it is worth exploring. I could maybe play that way sometimes in a solo, by way of contrast. Of course, octaves sound great with the thumb technique.

[christianm77]

its not that difficult to play it once you get used to playing regular upstrokes with the thumb. Keys to doing that are having a really short nail on the thumb, and positioning the thumb the way wes does, so it hits the strings with its center. This way upstrokes are played with the upper/external side of the thumb with no nail contact.

I used to be able to play them, but leaving a long nail for nylon strings i had to change my take on them. So these days i fold the thumb and use the nail to play them. The sound isn't really what is should be, but i can get the notes

Vids or you can't do it. :-)

Seriously anything is possible really, but I will send a free copy of my album to anyone who can locate an example of Wes upsweeping.

[christianm77]

If that's not much of an incentive, Nigel Price (who does uprake) is on it

[grahambop]

I think it's possible to play the odd upstroke with the thumb. Although I'm primarily a pick player, I do mess about with thumb only sometimes and over the years it's become fairly easy for me to do. I have found myself playing the occasional upstroke and it does work somehow. But I can't see how you could 'rake' up across more than 1 string (I assume that's what we mean by 'raking'), the thumb just doesn't have enough 'purchase' to manage it well, or so it seems to me.

I think the thumb upstroke technique is more like a quick flick of the thumb side edge where it joins the nail, it's just about good enough for one note but that's all.

Of course all the above is just based on my experience.

[christianm77]

I think it's possible to play the odd upstroke with the thumb. Although I'm primarily a pick player, I do mess about with thumb only sometimes and over the years it's become fairly easy for me to do. I have found myself playing the occasional upstroke and it does work somehow. But I can't see how you could 'rake' up across more than 1 string (I assume that's what we mean by 'raking'), the thumb just doesn't have enough 'purchase' to manage it well, or so it seems to me.

I think the thumb upstroke technique is more like a quick flick of the thumb side edge where it joins the nail, it's just about good enough for one note but that's all.

Of course all the above is just based on my experience.

Yeah wes played upward strums without question, but an upward rake is a different kettle of fish.
Not to say it's impossible, just very awkward...

[Dennis D]

completely idiosyncratic...

Two Things, FWIW


1. Back in the '60's when I first heard of WM, and asked my teacher how he did upstrokes, my teacher ( not a rock n' roll guy ) said he had a callous that allowed him to do that....
2. Then, maybe ten years ago, I followed ( ' stalked ' ? ) a pro here - of course to listen but also to do nothing but watch his right hand....He played with a pick, and would do the usual alternate up /down strokes.......Then I noticed, on some upstrokes, he'd bend that right knuckle closest to his right fingernail - -and sometimes he wouldn't, and keep it straight and bend /hinge it at the joint closest to his right palm....

So one night after a gig, I got to ask him specifically why he did that and his reply was : " I have no idea what I do "....

I know him well enough that I have to believe him.

Like I said FWIW.

[destinytot]

Video by kind favour of Alter (who made it at my request several months ago):

[Rob MacKillop]

Lot's of good playing there, and many upstrokes, but (correct me if I'm wrong) no upward raking of the type I was looking for in my original post. No matter, though, as clearly the technique can yield virtuoso stuff in the right hands, so to speak.