John Coltrane documentary!

[marcwhy]

Has anyone seen this yet?! I just found out about it, and fortunately it's playing in my area this week -- just bought tickets!

CHASING TRANE: The John Coltrane Documentary – The John Coltrane Documentary

[marcwhy]

Yow, David - it's that bad?!
[So what are the other/better docs on Trane?! I've seen a good Miles doc, but not Trane.]

Marc

[TH]

I liked this one

Clint Eastwood's documentary on Monk was also a really good and well done documentary in my opinion. A lot of love, respect and integrity in that one.

David

[Binyomin]

Hated it. Total mish mash of interviews, some great (Sonny Rollins) and many put in there in a whorish attempt to carb load an iconic example of a human being achieving the highest state of art.
So Coltrane is SO great, we need the Doors to validate him? He's so universal that we need Santana to tell us he's really ok to admire? And the real kicker: Trane's life was a genius' triumph over the racism that defined his life and society and who do they get to champion Trane? Bill Clinton, who single handed lay split open the racial divide with the idea that African Americans form a Super Preditor that the police should be empowered to eliminate. [...]

Just some quibbles: Santana made a record with Alice Coltrane and played Coltrane music on his album with John McLaughlin. I can also imagine a Doors member having interesting things to say about Coltrane, one of whose achievements was to cross over to non-Jazz audiences. And wasn't the Super Predator thing from Hillary, not Bill?

[Binyomin]

I guess I don't see Santana's contribution as warranting an important part in this film. Yes he says he liked Trane but he didn't say or show anything that made me say "Hmmm, really? That's pretty important. Thanks Carlos, you really did get it." Yes he played with Alice. Yoko Ono also played with Ornette's sidemen, but if they do a documentary on Ornette, I think she'd have the good taste to say there are many more qualified voices.

That was Hillary in 1996 mirroring Bill's triumphant promotion of his 1994 crime bill that forwarded the myth of blacks were the biggest threat to the security of white voters and being tough on black communities was the way of combating crime through marginalizing those communities. That's Bill Clinton's legacy. He still takes triumphant pride in his racist assessment of the American social divide and his part in creating tough security.
Yes, it's debatable whether crime enforcement targeting black communities is detrimental to our society but with Clinton as an important proponent in one direction and Coltrane's socio and economic place at the other end, I am still left with the question: Why was he even IN this movie?

Oh, right, he was once seen with a saxophone in his hands. Give that man a box seat in the Coltrane pantheon.

So I take it you liked the movie. I'm glad. I appreciate the effort, I just think it missed on the overall substance.

David

I didn't see it and I'm inclined to trust your overall assessment of it, actually. But you write as if the mere presence of Carlos Santana proves the movie is bad. Trane broke through to a much wider audience than Jazz usually gets while at the same time producing extremely challenging and innovative music and getting himself labeled "anti-Jazz." Trane as a cultural phenomenon is an interesting subject. I think Santana could potentially be a fantastic choice of who to interview. He was friends with Miles Davis (how he met McLaughlin?), he included the music of Tito Puente and Gabor Szabo on his own albums, and so forth. I think Roger McGuinn said that Trane influenced Eight Miles High. I wouldn't mind hearing him talk about it. It could be very worthwhile or it could be totally empty--it would depend on the documentary maker and interviewer.

[wolflen]

Hated it. Total mish mash of interviews, some great (Sonny Rollins) and many put in there in a whorish attempt to carb load an iconic example of a human being achieving the highest state of art.
So Coltrane is SO great, we need the Doors to validate him? He's so universal that we need Santana to tell us he's really ok to admire? And the real kicker: Trane's life was a genius' triumph over the racism that defined his life and society and who do they get to champion Trane? Bill Clinton, who single handed lay split open the racial divide with the idea that African Americans form a Super Preditor that the police should be empowered to eliminate. God help us. Grandstanding Hollywood manipulative filmmaking using the cache of John Coltrane to make sucker cash.
Hmmm. Not impressed. Better Coltrane films are already out there.
David

I have noticed that the top movies by tix sales are mostly white kids 13-21--some of them MAY have heard of the Doors/Santana and Bill (remember we don't teach history any longer..so the majority will not know Bill through his wife..in some polls a very low percentage of first year college/university students did not know Bill was impeached.

so perhaps using rock stars names of 40+ years ago may just be an advertising gimmick to get young kids to buy tickets but even there the ticket buying kids may have no idea who the Doors/Santana are or were.

From what I have read and heard John had a rough life..his music alone is what pulled him from the flames several times..his health failed and drug use speeded his demise. His creative years were just beginning.


For the jazz community of musicians this film will not bring much new info if any at all to the table..but for those new to jazz and are curious-having heard the name may want to learn more about him.

[TH]

I think Santana could potentially be a fantastic choice of who to interview. He was friends with Miles Davis (how he met McLaughlin?), he included the music of Tito Puente and Gabor Szabo on his own albums, and so forth. I think Roger McGuinn said that Trane influenced Eight Miles High. I wouldn't mind hearing him talk about it. It could be very worthwhile or it could be totally empty--it would depend on the documentary maker and interviewer.

Excellent points. So much of this depends on the ability of the astute documentarian to find a focus, a purpose to making a film. Sometimes it's to tell a story of the struggle (chet baker film), sometimes it's to tell of triumph over the status quo (Clint's Monk story), sometimes it's the story of an overlooked peripheral character (They Called Him Morgan, Lee Morgan's story told through his wife's perspective) and stories of tragic failure (Nina Simone) but I never got what I was there for in the Trane movie. Maybe I expected a lot, who wouldn't when you take on someone so iconic as Trane? So the stakes and responsibility is high.
Using celebrity to justify to your backers that you took on something worth while... well it leaves the ephemeral power of art and transcendence in the realm of the mundane and the satisfaction with sparkle.

That's kind of my disappointment with the mainstream of the music industry though. Enough said. See it if the opportunity is there. I'd welcome the discussion on music, difficult music and how the mainstream handles the genius that is so easily dismissed during an artist's life.

David

[Bebop Tom]

I saw it and enjoyed it. It gives some insight into his family life and his path to spirituality. I totally disagree with blasting it for having Santana, Densmore, and Bill Clinton. Densmore discusses seeing the Coltrane group with Elvin and how it influenced how he reacted musically with Morrison. Santana's comments show how Trane's music and spirituality influenced musicians of many genres. Bill Clinton discussed how Trane even influenced a former president, who was surprisingly familiar with his music and the arts in general. We could use a president like that right now, and panning him for being a racist because of a crime bill is shallow-minded and inaccurate. Instead of being so high and mighty, perhaps TruthHertz should ask black people what they feel about Bill Clinton. They don't need you to protect them.

[Bebop Tom]

Again, not sure what point you are making. Clinton was president in the 90's and was immensely popular with black people. He set up his post-presidency office in Harlem. What does this have to due with racism in the 60's? And why do you think getting people off generations of welfare and protecting them from violent crime is anti-black? You may want to see the film before you crap all over it. I would bet that the Coltrane family was honored to have a president give his time and thoughtful comments about John. Trane moved anyone that could feel his immense, POSITIVE, spirit. He was about God and love, not nitpicking.

[whiskey02]

Let's all shut the fuck up about politics.

[TH]

So what'd you think, Mark?

Hey, on a constructive note, and a thread de-rail, here're some fine documentaries that have set the bar for me:

There was a really nice documentary on Bill Evans, called Time Remembered. Anybody seen that? It seems hard to find online, I guess you can buy it directly from Bruce Spiegel the film maker.

I guess it is a tricky endeavour to make a good in-depth and appealing jazz documentary. When it's done right though, you hear and listen differently afterwords.

' hope these give you some inspiring documentary entertainment too.

David

[Doctor Jeff]

A couple of random comments...

I don't know that Santana was good friends with Miles--I read Miles auto, and to be honest, I don't know that Miles was good friends with ANYBODY.

IIRC Miles made the statement that he could do what Santana did, but no way could Santana do what Miles did, which to me seems like a pretty juvenile statement. However, I think there was mutual respect, and I think Miles did admire and envy Santana's power to entertain tens to hundreds of thousands of people.

I don't think Santana needed Miles to expose him to Coltrane. Like most truly artistic musicians in the 60's, Santana and the instrumentalists of the Doors idolized JC. More than anyone else, Coltrane was seen as opening doors to a freer, more mystical style. I haven't seen the documentary, but Santana is very articulate, so I can see why he would be included.

I don't know about Bill Clinton. Seems like there would be a lot of other artists who could comment thoughtfully about JC. Bill could be in a documentary on Huey Long. Or Lyndon Johnson. Or Cuban cigars. Just not music.

(On a side note, there's a pretty good documentary of Janis Joplin called Little Girl Blue which includes an interview with the actress Juliette Lewis. Apparently Juliette is a singer in a band--who knew?--but she wasn't even alive when Joplin was singing. Maybe JL is friends with the director??)

Coltrane didn't experience a gradual health decline due to his drug habit. He quit drugs in 1957. Per Wikipedia: "In the liner notes of A Love Supreme, Coltrane states that, in 1957, 'I experienced, by the grace of God, a spiritual awakening which was to lead me to a richer, fuller, more productive life. At that time, in gratitude, I humbly asked to be given the means and privilege to make others happy through music.'"

In 1967 he experienced a SUDDEN decline in health due to liver cancer. This was likely due to viral hepatitis he acquired while shooting drugs, and implies that he had cirrhosis by that point. Liver cancer is unfortunately often the first sign one has had a viral infection from drug use. Same as Stan Getz, and possibly Bill Evans as well (who died of liver failure, not cancer).

Interestingly, 180,000 servicemen contracted hepatitis C due to contaminated vaccinations and blood transfusions. It is POSSIBLE that Coltrane got hepatitis through his Navy service, not drugs, though admittedly the latter is more likely.

[marcwhy]

So what'd you think, Mark?

Well, here's the tragic story:

By the time I even learned of the film (OP above!), there was less than a week left of its local showing at a funky, artsy theatre. With my schedule, there was also only one night I could make it, so I purchased a ticket online and eagerly awaited. That night, I took off after work to the show (it was a 5:00PM show), made it there on time, went in, and the ticket lady said, "Oh, your ticket says theater 3; it's in theater 4." "No sweat!" I said, and ran into theater 4. No one else was there, so I had the best seat in the house.

After about one minute, two workers came up and asked to see my ticket. I showed them, and one -- the manager -- said, "How strange: we're having a benefit tonight here, and this movie is not being shown. I guess they didn't update the info online. Would you like to see something else?" "NO!!" I said in my most polite, angry voice. I drove home, depressed, never to speak of it again.

Thanks for reminding me.

[true story, too!]

Maybe it'll be on Netflix ..

Marc

[TH]

Dang!

[wintermoon]

I thought it was pretty darn good (though could have done without the in between interviews dramatics)

That said, I liked it better than most jazz docs, and the comments from rock dudes didn't bother me.
They may not be jazz musicians but they can have an opinion too...

[TH]

One big omission I did hope they might include was John McLaughlin. When I began to take an interest in jazz and guitar, it was McLaughlin who was one of my greatest heroes (in the early Mahavishnu days) and it was his constant advocacy and articulate championing of Coltrane's music, from throughout all of Coltrane's musical arc, that got me intrigued and turned me from a guitar centric love to listening to all sorts of music.
Sorry his presence wasn't a part of this film.

David

[Greentone]

Agreed...we don't need to get political on this forum! That said, Coltrane _was_ a political figure in the early-mid 60s. (Doesn't mean that we have to throw our political jibber-jabber in, though.)

Yep. Roger (nee Jim) McGuinn wrote "Eight Miles High" and played the 12-string electric guitar solo under the influence of Coltrane--by his own admission. I've seen the interview to that effect.

FWIW, if you want to introduce non-jazz folks to "jazz," you will get smiles and nods of affirmation if you play them Coltrane's take on "My Favorite Things." It's even more reliable than any of the cuts from Kind of Blue, IMO, for getting people to consider dipping into jazz.

[wintermoon]

"FWIW, if you want to introduce non-jazz folks to "jazz," you will get smiles and nods of affirmation if you play them Coltrane's take on "My Favorite Things"


I'm going to disagree w/you there GT. They'll recognize the melody for sure, but once he starts soloing he'll probably lose them.
He's beginning his 'out' phase @ that point in his life.

[AlsoRan]

So what'd you think, Mark?

Hey, on a constructive note, and a thread de-rail, here're some fine documentaries that have set the bar for me:

There was a really nice documentary on Bill Evans, called Time Remembered. Anybody seen that? It seems hard to find online, I guess you can buy it directly from Bruce Spiegel the film maker.

I guess it is a tricky endeavour to make a good in-depth and appealing jazz documentary. When it's done right though, you hear and listen differently afterwords.

' hope these give you some inspiring documentary entertainment too.

David

Youtube is becoming my new TV. I don't watch a whole lot of TV like I used to.

So thanks for the links. I can't wait to get a few moments to watch that Bill Evans documentary. I already have a good documentary on Monk that I bought on DVD.

Back to Coltrane....!

[destinytot]

Youtube is becoming my new TV. I don't watch a whole lot of TV like I used to.

So thanks for the links. I can't wait to get a few moments to watch that Bill Evans documentary. I already have a good documentary on Monk that I bought on DVD.

Back to Coltrane....!

I 'stream' and watch in VLC Player (for more control over playback) by (a) hitting Ctrl + N, and (b) copying and pasting the YouTube link.

[AlsoRan]

I 'stream' and watch in VLC Player (for more control over playback) by (a) hitting Ctrl + N, and (b) copying and pasting the YouTube link.

Great tip!

Official download of VLC media player, the best Open Source player - VideoLAN

I will be seeing this Coltrane Doc when I get a chance. I love stories of people overcoming their problems/vices/addictions, etc...

[destinytot]

Great tip!

Official download of VLC media player, the best Open Source player - VideoLAN

I will be seeing this Coltrane Doc when I get a chance. I love stories of people overcoming their problems/vices/addictions, etc...

Playback speed, zoom...

[Greentone]

Gotcha about 'Trane's soloing on 'Favorite Things.' To be sure, my parents' generation reacts harshly to it. "Get that damned Chinese music off the hi-fi!"

OTOH, I find that folks raised on a diet of rock/pop/hip-hop, etc., are able to hang with the extended, modal soloing business. Who knows, maybe it reminds them of Roger McGuinn on "Eight Miles High."

[wintermoon]

"Get that damned Chinese music off the hi-fi"

Hah, I was just telling a friend that years ago I sat in w/a blues band and I heard the bandleader say to someone after, "what's w/that Chinese music?"