Eric Dolphy on Guitar

[fasstrack]

haha, maybe, but Cannon was touted as the New Bird shortly after Parker died. You sort of hear it in the mid 50's, but like I say, he moved on..... maybe even strayed too far into soul jazz, which is a shame because his late 50's / early 60's straight Jazz plying is untouchable. But then, you can say that about so many other horn players, couldn't you?....

He didn't 'stray' into soul. If you listen to the group with Nat before he joined Miles, they were always funky. He just went back to his roots---and had a couple of hits, like Zawinul's Country Preacher, and right on!

Sonny Stitt, in a DB interview, gave his opinion"

'I'm not the 'new Bird'. Cannonball's not the 'new Bird'. Nobody's Bird. BIRD DIED!!'

[princeplanet]

OK, maybe you're right., so it was a shame he went back to his funky roots then Sometimes I feel convinced Cannonball was the greatest player ever, even greater than Parker, who along with Rollins and maybe Jackie Mac, had that thing where they took outrageous chances and would sound like tripping down the stairs but still landing on their feet. I like Dexter and Wes for the same reason.

As for Stitt (who was amazing if less adventurous), let's face it, he always wanted to top Bird. But alas he was to Bird what Salieri was to Mozart, i.e., condemned to be a bitter man in the wake of his greater Nemesis...

[fasstrack]

OK, maybe you're right., so it was a shame he went back to his funky roots then Sometimes I feel convinced Cannonball was the greatest player ever, even greater than Parker, who along with Rollins and maybe Jackie Mac, had that thing where they took outrageous chances and would sound like tripping down the stairs but still landing on their feet. I like Dexter and Wes for the same reason.

As for Stitt (who was amazing if less adventurous), let's face it, he always wanted to top Bird. But alas he was to Bird what Salieri was to Mozart, i.e., condemned to be a bitter man in the wake of his greater Nemesis...

I had a fight with my late (and sorely missed by many) teacher, John Foca, over your 1st comment: He was telling his student (in an after-hours bull session as we often had) to listen to Cannon first, THEN go back and listen to Bird.

'WHAT?' Dem's fightin' woids! So the debate went along the lines of me saying 'Always go to the source, the innovator FIRST!!' To which he replied: 'I know what he (Parker) was reaching for...' 'REACHING FOR?!!'---and on and on.

John was saying that the 'refiners' in music history were actually superior to the 'cruder' originals, b/c they had time to smooth out the bumps, codify the language, etc. There IS truth to this, but John was a classical theory and composition major who also loved jazz (and was supposed to have been a hell of a kid jazz accordionist). He actually made the Parker/Adderley=Palestrina/Bach comparison. The irony, of course, is that jazz is now like classical music---a codified 'language' taught in schools (often by poor examples of the art)----all of which is counter to the spirit of both jazz and Parker, who was the purest of improvisors. Lee Konitz called him a 'composer' in the sense of having a pool of ideas and phrases to cite, quote and cross-reference at will.

Cannonball, to me, was a combination of a notier Benny Carter, a blues player, and a very distinctive user of 8th-notes. He had great ideas, feeling and chops. He was a world in himself---through his predecessors, like all great art comes.

I always dug Sonny Stitt for what he was. He wasn't an inventor like Parker, but could put a hell of a solo together, and I don't care if he recycled the same licks over and over----he PRODUCED. To me, Jimmy Raney and Joe Pass (Grant Green, too, in a different sense) on our instrument were that kind of player. I like Raney's (one of my teachers, BTW) statement: 'I don't care about 'innovation'. I want to be GOOD----to work with quality, and hone that'. He WAS , if not an innovator, a hell of an ORIGINAL player. (They are two different things---another discussion for another day). He started consciously as a Parker interpreter on guitar (but always had his own touch, great time and sound, and that 'air-column simulation' all the great jazz guitar soloist have). He ended up indisputably Jimmy Raney, instantly recognizable and impossible to copy. And his playing changed. To me it was more deeply felt and sparser from the '70s on. Less 8th notes, more space, more asymmetrical phrases (lots of quarters off the beat, etc.).

OK, I'm typed out...

[fasstrack]

>> dolphy and nelson together is as good as it gets..shame oliver nelson isn't better known..he was penultimate music guy...player, writer, arranger..did tv and soundtracks..could get very heavy and deep or just keep it fluffy light..a master <<


So true!
Their music was beautiful, evocative and lyrical, at the same time somewhat vibrant, rebellious and unpredictable, often exploring new paths.
Once an Afro-American friend of mine called their work (also the songs of Monk's, Mingus', etc.) the "antithesis of jazz how many WASPs would have liked it". I think he used the term WASP in the original historical way as used by sociologists, but I failed to ask what he meant exactly.

Let's not forget Richard Wyands's important contributions to the Nelson-Dolphy recorded pairing. You need a very astute listener and responder to hold the fort down and anticipate/underline 2 players as diverse as those. I know form personal experience what Richard can do: He's not only one of the all-time boss accompanists (still going strong at 88---a great age for a piano player!), his solos are the epitome of taste, maturity and swing. When he's on a band, every ear is cocked his way when he solos. I saw it happen on George Kelly's Jazz Sultans in the '80s---from the cat bird seat. His solo on Nelson's quiescent slow tune Images is to die for...

[princeplanet]

I had a fight with my late (and sorely missed by many) teacher, John Foca, over your 1st comment: He was telling his student (in an after-hours bull session as we often had) to listen to Cannon first, THEN go back and listen to Bird.

'WHAT?' Dem's fightin' woids! So the debate went along the lines of me saying 'Always go to the source, the innovator FIRST!!' To which he replied: 'I know what he (Parker) was reaching for...' 'REACHING FOR?!!'---and on and on.

John was saying that the 'refiners' in music history were actually superior to the 'cruder' originals, b/c they had time to smooth out the bumps, codify the language, etc. There IS truth to this, but John was a classical theory and composition major who also loved jazz (and was supposed to have been a hell of a kid jazz accordionist). He actually made the Parker/Adderley=Palestrina/Bach comparison. The irony, of course, is that jazz is now like classical music---a codified 'language' taught in schools (often by poor examples of the art)----all of which is counter to the spirit of both jazz and Parker, who was the purest of improvisors. Lee Konitz called him a 'composer' in the sense of having a pool of ideas and phrases to cite, quote and cross-reference at will.

Cannonball, to me, was a combination of a notier Benny Carter, a blues player, and a very distinctive user of 8th-notes. He had great ideas, feeling and chops. He was a world in himself---through his predecessors, like all great art comes.

I always dug Sonny Stitt for what he was. He wasn't an inventor like Parker, but could put a hell of a solo together, and I don't care if he recycled the same licks over and over----he PRODUCED. To me, Jimmy Raney and Joe Pass (Grant Green, too, in a different sense) on our instrument were that kind of player. I like Raney's (one of my teachers, BTW) statement: 'I don't care about 'innovation'. I want to be GOOD----to work with quality, and hone that'. He WAS , if not an innovator, a hell of an ORIGINAL player. (They are two different things---another discussion for another day). He started consciously as a Parker interpreter on guitar (but always had his own touch, great time and sound, and that 'air-column simulation' all the great jazz guitar soloist have). He ended up indisputably Jimmy Raney, instantly recognizable and impossible to copy. And his playing changed. To me it was more deeply felt and sparser from the '70s on. Less 8th notes, more space, more asymmetrical phrases (lots of quarters off the beat, etc.).

OK, I'm typed out...

I like your stories and recommendations fass, and interesting to hear you took some lessons with Raney, who I want to start listening to a little more. What, in your opinion, are the great Raney recordings (leader or sideman)?

[ccroft]

Thanks for posting this. Some pretty remarkable technique. I'd like to hear how he might use it in his own soloing.

It interests me as ages ago I played along with Dolphy records since I liked his playing so much. But I could never really figure out what the fsck he was doing. My ears just couldn't keep up... let alone the fingers. But the concept is still with me.

And thanks to Ol'Fret for the link to the article. The Miles quote about somebody stepping on Eric's toes gave me a laugh. To my way of thinking it ain't necessarily a put-down.

[fasstrack]

Get Birdland Sessions 1952, Stan Getz Quintet----a little rawer and harder-swinging than Live at Storyville (which you also should have, it's a classic). Jimmy Raney A, In 3 Attitudes, Visits Paris, a sideman date with Bob Brookmeyer, the name of which escapes me----are all good early examples. He also took over Tal Farlow's chair with Norvo, and they recorded. Teddy Charles Tentet has great writing and he's on it playing well. I especially recommend David X. Young's Loft Sessions (if you can get it anymore). It's great players like Zoot Sims, Pepper Adams, Raney and Hall jamming in a loft after-hours in the flower district---with a tape recorder running. Raney really stretches out with a magnificent solo on Spuds (Idaho changes), and it's interesting to hear Jim Hall---new in town---listening and developing.

For later recordings my favorite is The Master, recorded in Holland with a good rhythm section. Strings Attached with Al Haig from around '75 is good. The duos with Atilla Zoller (Jim and Me) are very intimate and involved, very subtle and lovely.

But I'd start with his first date (since released under the more famous Stan Getz's name as Early Stan. There are 3 of his very well-written originals (he was a terrific composer) and a classic version of Round Midnight.

Good luck...