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  1. #51

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    The ones that I admire are:
    1. Henry "Homer" Haynes (Homer & Jethro)
    2.Ranger Doug Green (Riders In The Sky & Time Jumpers)
    3.Paul Yandell (Played mostly with Chet Atkins)
    I like these guys so much because they had and have the ability to play "in the pocket," which I try to keep in mind when playing in the Trio or the Monroevians (drummer, bass, accordion/violin, accordion, guitar (me)). Sadly, only Ranger Doug is still living.
    One more:
    4. Tiny Grimes (Cats And The Fiddle, Art Tatum) When they sang "These Cat's Will Swing For You," he was "Swing'n" on his Chicago (DGBE) tuned tenor guitar!
    Last edited by Donnie; 05-18-2017 at 05:23 PM.

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Which is why I always rail on about what "swing" means.

    It really just means "I like it." Or rather, the lack of it is a put down to something we don't like. "That cat doesn't swing."

    Just like "warm" guitar tones.
    There was another thread where things were broken down to the point of 8th notes, 16th notes, etc. I can hear what they were getting at, but it is just another form of music as far as I am concerned. It has its place.

    And BTW, "Warm" guitar tones only come from vacuum tube amps. Turn on the amp and 3 minutes later touch a tube. It will be "warm."

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    You've got three choices in jazz:
    1) You play in the Swing Era style of swinging-Eddie lang, Django, Freddie Green,Charlie Christian
    2) You swing in the Bop, Cool and Hard Bop style of swinging- Tal Farlow, Wes Montgomery, Jimmy Raney, Johnny Smith Kenny Burrell, Joe Pass, Jim Hall, Bruce Forman and Peter Bernstein
    3) You swing(groove) in the Fusion and Post-Jim Hall Stylists- John McLaughlin, Larry Coryell
    Pat Metheny, John Abercrombie, John Scofield, Mick Goodrick, Bill Frisell, Mike Stern, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Ben Monder, and Pat Martino.
    Seriously, only three?

    I could take any one of those three categories and compare and contrast the time/feels and rhythmic language within them and find great differences.

    Take Stern and McLaughlin for instance... IMO Stern has more in common with the bop guys feel wise than JM - he's a bop rooted improviser, and IMO swings in quite an old fashioned way. McLaughlin phrases in 16ths, improvises with a totally different concept, not much bop influence...

    Eddie Lang doesn't really swing. He's kind of pre-swing - straight like ragtime. Django and Charlie Christian? Chalk and cheese..... Christian *swings*, Django too, but differently...

    This points up the individuality of each player more than anything else, but there are millions of ways to use rhythm creatively.


    This list was taken for the Essential Listening section of Scott Reeves, "Creative Jazz Improvisation".

    When someone says some major player doesn't swing, it probably means the musician they're talking about doesn't swing in the style of one of the three styles of playing mentioned above.

    An example- one older guitarist I know was given a CD of a younger, talented player.
    I asked him how it was.
    He said, " It doesn't swing", and flung it in my direction saying, "I don't want it, you can have it".
    Hmmmm.... Sometimes it's cos it just doesn't swing tho :-) There is such a thing as not swinging. And swing is not a synonym for good time.

    Because jazz has this kind of complicated, fuzzy identity that blends into other African Diaspora musics there is a fundamental confusion about it's identity at the edges and this is a Good Thing as it's always been a fusion of musics. Rhythm will always be an important aspect of this music and the jazz related music I tend to listen to has this quality - I'm not into the floaty stuff so much.

    But some experienced players see jazz as a tradition, and that young players must earn their stripes by learning to, for instance, swing on *their terms*. I have a lot of sympathy with this viewpoint, but I also see the value of moving forward.

    What doesn't help is most of them have no advice to offer on how to achieve this. They learned it on the stand, mostly.

    But if we can teach other related music such as Samba or Afro Cuban music in class, why not swing feel? In my experience, this tends to happen much less, but maybe others have different experiences of jazz education.

    TBH I feel the idea of jazz being 'free expression' and the whole mission statement of modern jazz being... er... modern.... is a bit of a problem here when players are really learning their craft. Furthermore young bright eyed students can RESENT the force of tradition seeing it as outmoded or constraining their creativitarr. I was like this myself!

    To a quote/paraphrase Jimmy Raney '...find your own voice? You can't play yet!'

    And yet, everyone expects to get their asses kicked by the full force of the tradition when learning to play Cuban stuff or Russian piano music.

    Anyway I digress massively, as usual. ;-)
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-17-2017 at 06:06 PM.

  5. #54

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    for anyone who doesn't know what swing is

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by nick1994 View Post
    ray crawford swung

    Heck yeah, he did. One of my favorite players.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by nick1994 View Post
    for anyone who doesn't know what swing is
    Errr … I am not really sure this helped me but thanks for the attempt

    The impression I have at the moment is that swing feel has less to do with the “space between the notes” or the length of the notes being played (the extremes being ‘triplet-y’ vs really straight 8ths), and way more to do with the way accents are placed. I hear some really swinging Charlie Parker heads, and the length of the 8ths is pretty much DAAA-DA DAAA-DA etc, but he places accents in a totally different and to an extent unpredictable way.

    But maybe I’m wrong (I’ll appreciate any comments and corrections). And I am afraid I’m going slightly OT – if so, sorry.

    By the way, I re-read the OP and am pretty sure that (in Jeff’s terms) the question was “who are the guitarists whose music swings”? Surely not “which guitarists do you like”?

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by radiofm74 View Post
    Errr … I am not really sure this helped me but thanks for the attempt

    The impression I have at the moment is that swing feel has less to do with the “space between the notes” or the length of the notes being played (the extremes being ‘triplet-y’ vs really straight 8ths), and way more to do with the way accents are placed. I hear some really swinging Charlie Parker heads, and the length of the 8ths is pretty much DAAA-DA DAAA-DA etc, but he places accents in a totally different and to an extent unpredictable way.

    But maybe I’m wrong (I’ll appreciate any comments and corrections). And I am afraid I’m going slightly OT – if so, sorry.

    By the way, I re-read the OP and am pretty sure that (in Jeff’s terms) the question was “who are the guitarists whose music swings”? Surely not “which guitarists do you like”?
    I don't see how this didn't help you, did you see the rabbit???

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by radiofm74 View Post
    Errr … I am not really sure this helped me but thanks for the attempt

    The impression I have at the moment is that swing feel has less to do with the “space between the notes” or the length of the notes being played (the extremes being ‘triplet-y’ vs really straight 8ths), and way more to do with the way accents are placed. I hear some really swinging Charlie Parker heads, and the length of the 8ths is pretty much DAAA-DA DAAA-DA etc, but he places accents in a totally different and to an extent unpredictable way.

    But maybe I’m wrong (I’ll appreciate any comments and corrections). And I am afraid I’m going slightly OT – if so, sorry.

    By the way, I re-read the OP and am pretty sure that (in Jeff’s terms) the question was “who are the guitarists whose music swings”? Surely not “which guitarists do you like”?
    Yeah, I think there's truth in that. But there's different types of swing too.

    Nowadays, we take Bird as the lynchpin of what does and doesn't swing, but Parker wasn't swinging for many of those who grew up on swing music - too irregular and broken up. Lester Young swings mightily and with rhythmic creativity, but with much more of dancey regularity.

    Also length of the 8ths is just one variable.... Placement of 8th against the beat is also worthy of study.

    Also, there are 8ths and there are 8ths. The structure of lines offers four main types of 8th:

    1) An 8th joining to other 8ths together (connecting upbeat)
    2) An upbeat starting a phrase - for example a quarter on the 1+ before a line of 8ths
    3) An upbeat ending a phrase - a push. For example a phrase ending on the 4+
    4) Accented upbeats within the line

    2, 3 and 4 are what I call structural upbeats.

    1) may vary in placement from almost straight upbeats, to swung upbeats. Often in straight against swing playing the soloist lies behind the ensemble beat. 'Straight but relaxed.'

    However 2, 3 and 4 - the structural upbeats, I think you'd be wanting to synchronise them with the ensemble upbeat. This will likely be close to or exactly a 3rd triplet placement, and it's this that I think is one of the things that makes me go 'aha! that swings!'

    Horn players would learn this stuff intuitively by playing in a good big band. Guitarists.... not so much.

    There are other aspects of course - 1/4 triplet combinations, 2nd triplet upbeats, straight structural upbeats against swing, triplet embellishments - for example, if you play for example quite straight 8s up on the beat, introducing triplet embellishments might give your playing some interesting give and take.

    So, it all depends on your tastes and reference points. The thing is people don't seem (AFAIK) to think about rhythm in the same way as harmony in the sense of consciously shaping it, but why not? The process is the same:

    1) Hear something you like
    2) Work out what it is
    3) Practice it
    4) Internalise it

    To get 1) you need to have a trained ear - so that requires both listening and also playing or singing to learn the sounds fro the other end. For instance, it helps to play a quarter triplet to hear one.

    As with harmony that's kind of the main step. The other bits are relatively straightforward, given time.

    So does Krantz, MacLaughlin swing? Well maybe not, but they have all made conscious decisions about how to express themselves through rhythm, and that's the important bit to emulate, IMO.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-18-2017 at 07:49 AM.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    ...but Parker wasn't swinging for many of those who grew up on swing music - too irregular and broken up...
    So does Krantz, MacLaughlin swing? Well maybe not, but they have all made conscious decisions about how to express themselves through rhythm, and that's the important bit to emulate, IMO.
    Yep, and McLaughlin has said that Parker was a big influence on him. I think that JM made conscious decisions to follow more of Parker's (later) sense of rhythms than to be a bebop master. Just my opinion.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200 View Post
    Yep, and McLaughlin has said that Parker was a big influence on him. I think that JM made conscious decisions to follow more of Parker's (later) sense of rhythms than to be a bebop master. Just my opinion.
    Interesting - which Parker things are you thinking of?

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Seriously, only three?

    I could take any one of those three categories and compare and contrast the time/feels and rhythmic language within them and find great differences.

    Take Stern and McLaughlin for instance... IMO Stern has more in common with the bop guys feel wise than JM - he's a bop rooted improviser, and IMO swings in quite an old fashioned way. McLaughlin phrases in 16ths, improvises with a totally different concept, not much bop influence...

    Eddie Lang doesn't really swing. He's kind of pre-swing - straight like ragtime. Django and Charlie Christian? Chalk and cheese..... Christian *swings*, Django too, but differently...

    This points up the individuality of each player more than anything else, but there are millions of ways to use rhythm creatively.



    Hmmmm.... Sometimes it's cos it just doesn't swing tho :-) There is such a thing as not swinging. And swing is not a synonym for good time.

    Because jazz has this kind of complicated, fuzzy identity that blends into other African Diaspora musics there is a fundamental confusion about it's identity at the edges and this is a Good Thing as it's always been a fusion of musics. Rhythm will always be an important aspect of this music and the jazz related music I tend to listen to has this quality - I'm not into the floaty stuff so much.

    But some experienced players see jazz as a tradition, and that young players must earn their stripes by learning to, for instance, swing on *their terms*. I have a lot of sympathy with this viewpoint, but I also see the value of moving forward.

    What doesn't help is most of them have no advice to offer on how to achieve this. They learned it on the stand, mostly.

    But if we can teach other related music such as Samba or Afro Cuban music in class, why not swing feel? In my experience, this tends to happen much less, but maybe others have different experiences of jazz education.

    TBH I feel the idea of jazz being 'free expression' and the whole mission statement of modern jazz being... er... modern.... is a bit of a problem here when players are really learning their craft. Furthermore young bright eyed students can RESENT the force of tradition seeing it as outmoded or constraining their creativitarr. I was like this myself!

    To a quote/paraphrase Jimmy Raney '...find your own voice? You can't play yet!'

    And yet, everyone expects to get their asses kicked by the full force of the tradition when learning to play Cuban stuff or Russian piano music.

    Anyway I digress massively, as usual. ;-)
    That just meant there were three Major Styles of jazz; withing the three major styles, you can break them down into followers of Django, CC, Farlow, McLaughlin, etc... each with a rhythmic conception of their own.

    Each style represents a major change in the aesthetics of swinging, hence Group One says Group Two doesn't swing, Group Two says that Group Three doesn't swing (as in the example of my friend's opinion of the young guitarist's music), etc...

    IMHO, the major schism took place in the 60s, with the use of even 8ths in jazz rock, or fusion.

  13. #62

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    Sorry, I miss-typed. I meant Coltrane, not Parker. Although Parker may have had some influence as well. There has got to be tons of JM examples, but he did do "A Love Supreme" with Carlos Santana ions ago.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    That just meant there were three Major Styles of jazz; withing the three major styles, you can break them down into followers of Django, CC, Farlow, McLaughlin, etc... each with a rhythmic conception of their own.

    Each style represents a major change in the aesthetics of swinging, hence Group One says Group Two doesn't swing, Group Two says that Group Three doesn't swing (as in the example of my friend's opinion of the young guitarist's music), etc...
    I would be interested to know the guitarist in question, it might help me understand where your friend was coming from. As it is I see a few different possibilities:

    1) the young player can't swing
    2) he swings in a different way
    3) he failed some other shibboleth related test

    IMHO, the major schism took place in the 60s, with the use of even 8ths in jazz rock, or fusion.
    I dunno, I feel for instance Stern has more in common time wise with Jimmy Raney than (post Mahavishnu) John MacLaughlin.

    I think your three categories are more reflective of people's general BS about music than any actual deep listening.

    For example, Mike Stern 'doesn't swing' because he plays a 'rock'n'roll' guitar with a distorted sound. If Stern had spent his career playing the exact same notes on a heavy strung 175 through a polytone, I bet everyone would regard him as a top banana bebop guitar player. He has the lines and the feel IMO. I heard his electric bass player Teymur Phell play some of the great bebop I'd heard all year and swing *hard*.

    For some cats - even some guys who seem too young for this rubbish - Rock and Roll is still THE ENEMY and the electric guitar deeply suspicious - however much you swing.

    People are still remarkably stupid and judge everyone with their ears. If I bring a telecaster to a big band gig I get raised eyebrows even though it's far easier for me to get a Freddie Green rhythm tone on a tele than it is to play a rock solo on Maynard chart on an fat Archtop.

    IMHO, the major schism took place in the 60s, with the use of even 8ths in jazz rock, or fusion.
    In terms of the changes in overall rhythmic aesthetic? Maybe - BUT - this is much to do with the way rhythm sections changed as the soloists. The music itself changed. Guitarists are really the tip of the iceberg here. We need to be talking to drummers....

    There's been plenty of schisms in the history of the music. Was jazz/rock jazz? Dunno - most of it didn't swing. But if straight 8's music isn't jazz cos it doesn't swing, we need to be having a word with any Blue Note player who cut a Bossa. Does Dorham swing when he plays Blue Bossa?



    TBH a lot of the earlier movements - free music, bebop, swing - were OK with disavowing the j-word. Only recently have people sought it out as a badge of honour.

    Also the divide between straight 8's and swung? Not so simple.

    But I'm pretty old school on this really. If there is any argument at all about whether or not a player swings, the chances are that he or she doesn't really swing consistently enough for it to be a key feature of their playing. Most of them probably *can* swing to some extent.

    In contrast, no one says Wes or Charlie Christian or Grant Green doesn't swing. Along with touch and tone, their playing was largely defined by their swing and it was IMO a physical thing. You just feel it in your body.

    Isn't that what the OP means? The MOST swinging. The players who are largely defined by their feel, more than their note choices or harmony however hip? And for that feel to connect with the body immediately in the way that swing does like no other feel?
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-18-2017 at 08:12 PM.

  15. #64

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    [QUOTE=christianm77;773743]I would be interested to know the guitarist in question, it might help me understand where your friend was coming from. As it is I see a few different possibilities:

    1) the young player can't swing
    2) he swings in a different way
    3) he failed some other shibboleth related test



    I dunno, I feel for instance Stern has more in common time wise with Jimmy Raney than (post Mahavishnu) John MacLaughlin.

    I think your three categories are more reflective of people's general BS about music than any actual deep listening.

    For example, Mike Stern 'doesn't swing' because he plays a 'rock'n'roll' guitar with a distorted sound. If Stern had spent his career playing the exact same notes on a heavy strung 175 through a polytone, I bet everyone would regard him as a top banana bebop guitar player. He has the lines and the feel IMO. I heard his electric bass player Teymur Phell play some of the great bebop I'd heard all year and swing *hard*.

    For some cats - even some guys who seem too young for this rubbish - Rock and Roll is still THE ENEMY and the electric guitar deeply suspicious - however much you swing.

    People are still remarkably stupid and judge everyone with their ears. If I bring a telecaster to a big band gig I get raised eyebrows even though it's far easier for me to get a Freddie Green rhythm tone on a tele than it is to play a rock solo on Maynard chart on an fat Archtop.



    In terms of the changes in overall rhythmic aesthetic? Maybe - BUT - this is much to do with the way rhythm sections changed as the soloists. The music itself changed. Guitarists are really the tip of the iceberg here. We need to be talking to drummers....

    There's been plenty of schisms in the history of the music. Was jazz/rock jazz? Dunno - most of it didn't swing. But if straight 8's music isn't jazz cos it doesn't swing, we need to be having a word with any Blue Note player who cut a Bossa. Does Dorham swing when he plays Blue Bossa?



    TBH a lot of the earlier movements - free music, bebop, swing - were OK with disavowing the j-word. Only recently have people sought it out as a badge of honour.

    Also the divide between straight 8's and swung? Not so simple.

    But I'm pretty old school on this really. If there is any argument at all about whether or not a player swings, the chances are that he or she doesn't really swing consistently enough for it to be a key feature of their playing. Most of them probably *can* swing to some extent.

    In contrast, no one says Wes or Charlie Christian or Grant Green doesn't swing. Along with touch and tone, their playing was largely defined by their swing and it was IMO a physical thing. You just feel it in your body.

    Isn't that what the OP means? The MOST swinging. The players who are largely defined by their feel, more than their note choices or harmony however hip? And for that feel to connect with the body immediately in the way that swing does like no other fe

    The older guitarist had played jazz gigs in the 50s with players like Bill Evans, Eddie Costa, Buddy Rich, etc..., and played on an LP with Kenny Burrell and a well-known bass player.

    The younger guitarist had an MA in jazz performance, and played with some younger jazz players I'm not familiar with. He's definitely in the category of a self-promoting 'gig whore' , playing as many gigs as is humanly possible.

    Since I've heard the young player live, and he does swing, I'd say that the older player was saying that the younger player's CD contained music that purposely didn't swing, so that it would appeal to a larger audience, although it was still billed as a jazz album.

    This is what I meant by the schism in the 60s, with musicians like Gary Burton purposely playing music that didn't swing so he could reach a wider audience, and John Coltrane's recording of 'My Favorite Things' which featured him playing extremely unswinging rhythms in his solos, regardless of waht the rhythm section was playing.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I would be interested to know the guitarist in question, it might help me understand where your friend was coming from. As it is I see a few different possibilities:

    1) the young player can't swing
    2) he swings in a different way
    3) he failed some other shibboleth related test



    I dunno, I feel for instance Stern has more in common time wise with Jimmy Raney than (post Mahavishnu) John MacLaughlin.

    I think your three categories are more reflective of people's general BS about music than any actual deep listening.

    For example, Mike Stern 'doesn't swing' because he plays a 'rock'n'roll' guitar with a distorted sound. If Stern had spent his career playing the exact same notes on a heavy strung 175 through a polytone, I bet everyone would regard him as a top banana bebop guitar player. He has the lines and the feel IMO. I heard his electric bass player Teymur Phell play some of the great bebop I'd heard all year and swing *hard*.

    For some cats - even some guys who seem too young for this rubbish - Rock and Roll is still THE ENEMY and the electric guitar deeply suspicious - however much you swing.

    People are still remarkably stupid and judge everyone with their ears. If I bring a telecaster to a big band gig I get raised eyebrows even though it's far easier for me to get a Freddie Green rhythm tone on a tele than it is to play a rock solo on Maynard chart on an fat Archtop.



    In terms of the changes in overall rhythmic aesthetic? Maybe - BUT - this is much to do with the way rhythm sections changed as the soloists. The music itself changed. Guitarists are really the tip of the iceberg here. We need to be talking to drummers....

    There's been plenty of schisms in the history of the music. Was jazz/rock jazz? Dunno - most of it didn't swing. But if straight 8's music isn't jazz cos it doesn't swing, we need to be having a word with any Blue Note player who cut a Bossa. Does Dorham swing when he plays Blue Bossa?



    TBH a lot of the earlier movements - free music, bebop, swing - were OK with disavowing the j-word. Only recently have people sought it out as a badge of honour.

    Also the divide between straight 8's and swung? Not so simple.

    But I'm pretty old school on this really. If there is any argument at all about whether or not a player swings, the chances are that he or she doesn't really swing consistently enough for it to be a key feature of their playing. Most of them probably *can* swing to some extent.

    In contrast, no one says Wes or Charlie Christian or Grant Green doesn't swing. Along with touch and tone, their playing was largely defined by their swing and it was IMO a physical thing. You just feel it in your body.

    Isn't that what the OP means? The MOST swinging. The players who are largely defined by their feel, more than their note choices or harmony however hip? And for that feel to connect with the body immediately in the way that swing does like no other feel?

    As far as Mike Stern, I heard him live at a club in the late 80s,
    when he was trying to play jazz, and he wasn't swinging.

    A sax player saw him playing at the Manhattan School of Music in the 90s, and he thought Stern was some college kid just learning how to play jazz.

    That was a long time ago, and he's improved a great deal, but like Coryell, McLaughlin, Scofield and most of the other players in 'group three', the fusion players were basically rock players who got turned on to jazz by the modal jazz of Coltrane's 'My Favorite Things', which became so popular in the 60s among rock audiences specifically because Coltrane didn't swing on that recording (this is excluding the rhythm section and Trane's earlier recordings).

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    As far as Mike Stern, I heard him live at a club in the late 80s,
    when he was trying to play jazz, and he wasn't swinging.

    A sax player saw him playing at the Manhattan School of Music in the 90s, and he thought Stern was some college kid just learning how to play jazz.
    Burn! :-)


    That was a long time ago, and he's improved a great deal, but like Coryell, McLaughlin, Scofield and most of the other players in 'group three', the fusion players were basically rock players who got turned on to jazz by the modal jazz of Coltrane's 'My Favorite Things', which became so popular in the 60s among rock audiences specifically because Coltrane didn't swing on that recording (this is excluding the rhythm section and Trane's earlier recordings).
    Yeah you could be right, I got turned onto jazz by Trane too as a young rock fan... And Trane, now having listened to jazz for my entire adult life, I don't think has that classic swing at all even on the Miles record (I now hear Cannonball more than Trane).

    But he is a jazz musician and obviously one of the greatest, especially IMO on ballads... Also there are those long hypnotic pieces where he just plays the minor pentatonic and it's amazing.

    As a young rock guy that really connected. Along with Elvin's drumming.

    But McLaughlin, as it turns out, did swing in the 60s. In fact, he comps like Red Garland on the swung upbeats, and plays tasty hard bop guitar (see the McLaughlin time thread). I am told by people who remember the scene in London at the time that he was known as a feel guy before he developed his picking chops.

    But I'm tired of this wedge between hard bop, soul jazz and jazz rock. In fact hard bop led to jazz rock - organ trios, electric guitar, soul influences, Cannonball Adderley's group is a case in point. Soul jazz brought in more straight 8 feels. Motown was played by jazz musicians. There is a natural progression in Miles's music. And, for instance Tribute to Jack Johnson has a swing to it.

    But then I suppose Miles's music isn't really fusion or jazz-rock per se... That said, the best fusion has that soul grease going on... I love Jaco for that...
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-19-2017 at 03:34 PM.

  18. #67

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    I don't know who saw Mike Stern in the 90's barely able to Play Jazz...
    He probably had/ has separate 'Styles' when he bends a lot of Notes with Higher Gain versus ...
    'Straight Ahead' Jazz or whatever the term would be.

    He's not my Hero or anything , ( TBH I do feel some necessity to compete with top Jazz Guitarists Technically and in a few other ways )but I saw him with Michael Brecker at University of Miami probably early to mid 80s ( ? ) and Stern was Playing more like what I posted earlier..long Phrases .. swinging 8ths and 16ths etc. not much gain..no wide bends or Vibrato..Straight Jazz/ BeBop phrasing.

    I remember hearing Stern where he played like a Rocker with gain and bends and more Pentatonic on a few Recordings.....he can really go either way .
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 05-21-2017 at 03:14 PM.

  19. #68

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    The older guitarist had played jazz gigs in the 50s with players like Bill Evans, Eddie Costa, Buddy Rich, etc..., and played on an LP with Kenny Burrell and a well-known bass player.

    The younger guitarist had an MA in jazz performance, and played with some younger jazz players I'm not familiar with. He's definitely in the category of a self-promoting 'gig whore' , playing as many gigs as is humanly possible.


    No judgement and I hope it goes really well for him... It's what you have to do. But no-one can learn to swing doing an MA. Might put older cats backs up, but they'd be the first to go on about 'I don't know how you young cats manage now' - well let me tell you old timer, due to the permanent existence failure of the apprenticeship system and also most of jazz legends on your CV we get by by HUSTLING THE **** OUT OF ANYONE WHO WILL LISTEN. ;-)

    I have had a similar reaction to fresh faced young musicians with a sales & networking approach (*cough* Janek Gwizdala *cough*) but you know what? That's what you have to do. Especially if you play the guitar. That's what the scene is now. You need to sell yourself AND you need to be able play really ****ing well.

    (Actually that's what Metheny had to do. Not so new then.)

    Since I've heard the young player live, and he does swing, I'd say that the older player was saying that the younger player's CD contained music that purposely didn't swing, so that it would appeal to a larger audience, although it was still billed as a jazz album.


    Do people really not like swing? It makes me feel happy in my soul.

    I don't get it. But in London it's been swing crazy for 6 years, maybe people prefer straight 8's pop funk wherever you are based.

    This is what I meant by the schism in the 60s, with musicians like Gary Burton purposely playing music that didn't swing so he could reach a wider audience, and John Coltrane's recording of 'My Favorite Things' which featured him playing extremely unswinging rhythms in his solos, regardless of waht the rhythm section was playing.


    If you say so, I dunno. I know Fusion was big in the 70s, bigger than swing based jazz. But that's just style. Burton could play the crap out of bebop. If you are playing straight 8s music you will play rhythm differently....
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-19-2017 at 04:01 PM.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post


    No judgement and I hope it goes really well for him... It's what you have to do. But no-one can learn to swing doing an MA. Might put older cats backs up, but they'd be the first to go on about 'I don't know how you young cats manage now' - well let me tell you old timer, due to the permanent existence failure of the apprenticeship system and also most of jazz legends on your CV we get by by HUSTLING THE **** OUT OF ANYONE WHO WILL LISTEN. ;-)

    I have had a similar reaction to fresh faced young musicians with a sales & networking approach (*cough* Janek Gwizdala *cough*) but you know what? That's what you have to do. Especially if you play the guitar. That's what the scene is now. You need to sell yourself AND you need to be able play really ****ing well.

    (Actually that's what Metheny had to do. Not so new then.)



    Do people really not like swing? It makes me feel happy in my soul.

    I don't get it. But in London it's been swing crazy for 6 years, maybe people prefer straight 8's pop funk wherever you are based.



    If you say so, I dunno. I know Fusion was big in the 70s, bigger than swing based jazz. But that's just style. Burton could play the crap out of bebop. If you are playing straight 8s music you will play rhythm differently....
    I was under the impression that jazz peaked in the UK in the 1950s, and
    now it's like the rest of the world- EDM/Hip-Hop zombies.
    I heard the Bull's Head was closing a few years ago.

    Other than people like Tubby Hayes, Dick Morrissey, Jim Mullin, Jimmy Hastings, Terry Smith, Johnny Dankworth, etc...(most of whom are dead) I didn't think there were many major jazz musicians left in the UK.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    I was under the impression that jazz peaked in the UK in the 1950s, and
    now it's like the rest of the world- EDM/Hip-Hop zombies.
    I heard the Bull's Head was closing a few years ago.

    Other than people like Tubby Hayes, Dick Morrissey, Jim Mullin, Jimmy Hastings, Terry Smith, Johnny Dankworth, etc...(most of whom are dead) I didn't think there were many major jazz musicians left in the UK.
    I seem to remember that during the SophistaPop era of BritPop, there were bands like Swingout Sister who had several songs that seemed to swing. There were pretty big for a while and then faded - but are still big in Japan.

    You've got to love the Japanese. They seem to hang on longer o forms of music that is waning in other parts of the world. 80's Hard Rock and Metal guys can still go over there and make good money. Some live there permanently.

    Here is what I consider to be a swinging clip from Swingout Sister - Twilight World. (Man, I loved that singer, Corrine Drewery and the music sounded so good in the London clubs, sigh...)







    Forgive the momentary indulgence - Back to Jazz Guitar!
    Last edited by AlsoRan; 05-21-2017 at 09:40 AM.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    I was under the impression that jazz peaked in the UK in the 1950s, and
    now it's like the rest of the world- EDM/Hip-Hop zombies.
    I heard the Bull's Head was closing a few years ago.
    Bull's Head managed to dodge that bullet, I'm going there to see a friend play on Wednesday.

    But I think London has had quite a few venues close due to rents getting too high.

    In the past 10 years or so we've had a bit of a craze among young people for all things swing and early jazz related. This hasn't had much to do with any pre-existing jazz scene, and hasn't really been a listening vibe, but it has meant gigs.

    Other than people like Tubby Hayes, Dick Morrissey, Jim Mullin, Jimmy Hastings, Terry Smith, Johnny Dankworth, etc...(most of whom are dead) I didn't think there were many major jazz musicians left in the UK.
    It's not New York, but there's no shortage of heavy players. Major or not, they can play.

    What we lack is the history and continuity you get in NY as well as a nice compact scene like the Village. That used to be Soho, but there are only three or four jazz places in Soho.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-20-2017 at 05:11 AM.

  23. #72
    Anybody knows Ronnie Singer? He's the greatest.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  24. #73

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    I read somewhere someone saying that swing is not necessarily space between the notes because you've got guys playing their lines straight but the lines still swing because how they articulate the offbeats. for me, that's not swing. putting the snare on the 2 and 4 doesn't make the music swing it gives it forward motion, so when accenting the off beats of quavers or semiquavers they're not swinging they are going forward. people are being too vague about what it is, it's the space between the notes.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by nick1994 View Post
    I read somewhere someone saying that swing is not necessarily space between the notes because you've got guys playing their lines straight but the lines still swing because how they articulate the offbeats. for me, that's not swing. putting the snare on the 2 and 4 doesn't make the music swing it gives it forward motion, so when accenting the off beats of quavers or semiquavers they're not swinging they are going forward. people are being too vague about what it is, it's the space between the notes.
    Are you sure they didn't mean the upbeats (as in the 'ands')?

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Are you sure they didn't mean the upbeats (as in the 'ands')?
    off beat and up beat is synonymous. usually up beat refers to 2 & 4 and off beat for me always means the and

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by nick1994 View Post
    I read somewhere someone saying that swing is not necessarily space between the notes because you've got guys playing their lines straight but the lines still swing because how they articulate the offbeats. for me, that's not swing. putting the snare on the 2 and 4 doesn't make the music swing it gives it forward motion, so when accenting the off beats of quavers or semiquavers they're not swinging they are going forward. people are being too vague about what it is, it's the space between the notes.
    But the question is ‘how much space’? Eights in swing feel are noted as a triplet quarter + eight. I listen to the greats and sometimes I hear them played like that (but with accents played differently), while other times it’s closer to straight 8ths (not quite that, but closer).

    So is there right or wrong in how much space you put, or is it a feel thing and all is equally valid, provided that it swings? Awwww…

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by radiofm74 View Post
    But the question is ‘how much space’? Eights in swing feel are noted as a triplet quarter + eight. I listen to the greats and sometimes I hear them played like that (but with accents played differently), while other times it’s closer to straight 8ths (not quite that, but closer).

    So is there right or wrong in how much space you put, or is it a feel thing and all is equally valid, provided that it swings? Awwww…
    No I don't think there is a right amount to swing, I think that triplets are generallly the standard reference for swing, but I don't think it matters whether the distance is large or small.
    Last edited by nick1994; 05-21-2017 at 04:44 AM.

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by nick1994 View Post
    off beat and up beat is synonymous. usually up beat refers to 2 & 4 and off beat for me always means the and
    Yes, it's confusing.

    I used to think upbeat was purely 2 & 4 but heard many musicians talk about the upbeat being what I thought of as the offbeat, including Mike Longo, Charles McPherson among others... I wouldn't call the 2&4 an offbeat - a backbeat, more likely.

    (But of course in double time the offbeat becomes the backbeat so there is a connection - take Ska & Reggae for instance - do you notate in 4 with a skank on 2 & 4 or half time a skank on the '&'s?)

    Therefore it seems like common usage (at least in jazz circles) is that upbeat means offbeat '&'s - come to think of it is this a US thing? Like quarter notes, measures and so on? Anyone else confused by this?

    Anyway this is how I have come to use the word 'upbeat' to refer to the '&'s as I thought this was general jazz usage.

    In any case the quote you posted makes a lot more sense to me if it refers to the 'ands', and is very similar to some advice Peter Bernstein gives.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-21-2017 at 05:45 AM.

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by radiofm74 View Post
    But the question is ‘how much space’? Eights in swing feel are noted as a triplet quarter + eight. I listen to the greats and sometimes I hear them played like that (but with accents played differently), while other times it’s closer to straight 8ths (not quite that, but closer).

    So is there right or wrong in how much space you put, or is it a feel thing and all is equally valid, provided that it swings? Awwww…
    There is an interesting discussion on a piano forum regarding swing, initially sparked by Mike Longo's 'don't practice with a metronome' post.

    Unfortunately I can't seem to find the link, but basically a student of Alan Pasqua (no less) and had recorded his playing and analysed and found that although the articulation itself was straight(ish) the 'ands' so to speak were always on the triplet - that is he was playing late and straight by the right amount to hit the upbeats, which puts an interesting spin on it.

    Not everyone plays that way, but several musicians (Bernstein, Moreno) advise that a good swing feel is straight but relaxed and that the accentuation of the line makes it swing. That's certainly how it feels to do it, although your accents may well end up on the swung upbeat anyway through intuition. This is related to what Hal Galper says when he advises students to not try to swing and just play even.

    What I draw from this is that it is certainly important to learn where the triplet upbeat is (Mike Longo gets students to practice singing bop heads in 6/8 for instance, Pat Metheny advised students to subdivide in triplets and so on) but then to not consciously phrase using it, if that makes any sense.

    Certainly at slow tempos where you can count this it works well to feel the upbeat as a 3rd triplet. Slow swing does have that feel - for example Basie L'il Darlin. In fact, as Mike Longo points out it's less of a triplet feel and more of an African style 12/8. Triplets tend to imply an accent on the first note.

    Wes often phrased in 12/8 at medium tempos with hemiolas etc:



    Listen to that extended bit where Wes plays some Jive style upbeats/offbeats at around 4:42 and you can hear how tripletty they are. Here was a guy who played dance gigs!

    That's what I mean by old school swing, BTW. West Africa meets Europe in America.

    Many modern players would phrase in double time instead at this tempo (BTW double time is a whole other topic.)

    Anyway, the faster you go the harder it becomes to count, so naturally the feeling of the upbeat becomes more intuitive. In general it's thought that the faster you go, the straighter your playing becomes, but I couldn't say whether this refers to the position of the 'and's' or just the articulation of the eights. In practice, I'll leave that one to researchers and go with what feels natural at tempo.

    Breaking it down is probably counterproductive at this point, although I do practice offbeats, 3:2 polyrhythms and so on at 200+.

    Anyway rhythm is my main interest and I could blather on for hours.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-21-2017 at 06:19 AM.

  31. #80

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    I am afraid that I have hijacked the thread, but I am learning a lot. Thanks to you all!

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by radiofm74 View Post
    I am afraid that I have hijacked the thread, but I am learning a lot. Thanks to you all!
    Ha! There are a lot of Veterans / High Level Theorists/Hi Level Players /Jazz Veterans etc.
    here who are very helpful for Musical Questions especially Theory ...and the practical ways to actually use it .

    I've partially Hijacked a lot of Threads also.

    I should say thanks to everyone also..
    Like the Song 'To All the Girls I've Loved Before' except for me it's
    'All the Theory I Should Have Learned Before ' or at least the' shorthand version'.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 05-24-2017 at 07:48 AM.

  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan View Post
    I seem to remember that during the SophistaPop era of BritPop, there were bands like Swingout Sister who had several songs that seemed to swing. There were pretty big for a while and then faded - but are still big in Japan.

    You've got to love the Japanese. They seem to hang on longer o forms of music that is waning in other parts of the world. 80's Hard Rock and Metal guys can still go over there and make good money. Some live there permanently.

    Here is what I consider to be a swinging clip from Swingout Sister - Twilight World. (Man, I loved that singer, Corrine Drewery and the music sounded so good in the London clubs, sigh...)







    Forgive the momentary indulgence - Back to Jazz Guitar!
    I love Swingout Sister, but they didn't swing, they funked or grooved, like EW&F, George Benson, Steely
    Dan, etc...

  34. #83

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    Back to JM. Swinging IMHO.

  35. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    A sax player saw him playing at the Manhattan School of Music in the 90s, and he thought Stern was some college kid just learning how to play jazz.

    anecdotes are tough, because it's like, not something you can really discuss. he might have sounded terrible on a gig, it happens to all of us. but here's mike from '92:


    This music is not personally my cup of tea, but, to compare someone playing at this level with a college kid just learning to play jazz is ridiculous.

  36. #85

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    I really like that album actually.

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I really like that album actually.
    I must have 90% of his work including stuff with Miles Davis. Not a clunker among them IMHO.

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200 View Post
    I must have 90% of his work including stuff with Miles Davis. Not a clunker among them IMHO.
    I remember reading where Miles would say to Stern-

    'Play some of that Jimi Hendrix s___ ' lol so maybe people have seen Stern rocking out.

    I saw Stern at a 3 hour great Gig with Brecker's Band at University of Miami Terrace -way before 92 and was surprised at how well Stern was playing...cause I had heard him mostly bending with gain and Vibrato..
    On that Gig Stern was sitting down I recall ..and playing like he did on the Giant Steps I posted.

    Brecker was unbelievable that night even for Brecker he was getting to Stern ..who enjoyed it but was clowning around ...like 'what am going to play after THAT ?'

    And I like how effortless he is on the Clip above..

    That Guy can really Play Jazz- Stern he said he wasn't like Metheny- it did not come easily for him ( Stern)..to learn to play Jazz .but you can't tell now can you...

    Also notice that Stern's Guitar is NOT too loud in the Mix- a common mistake ...

    I really like that clip ! Except maybe the chorused chords ...Stern sound's like he's Pat Martino's slightly Rocked out Protegè but in the best way....his Rhythmic and Melodic Motifs here are very cool!
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 06-07-2017 at 02:08 PM.

  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200 View Post


    Back to JM. Swinging IMHO.
    And some super cool smoky snaky Blues Licks inside the lines.. your Point is Made !

    Point being- he could ' swing' when he wanted to but perhaps wanted to distinguish himself from other Players go other Ways or was tired of the ' swing ' feel etc.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 06-07-2017 at 03:56 PM.

  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    And some super cool smoky snaky Blues Licks inside the lines.. your Point is Made !
    Not really my point - just part of my music library. There is a lot of other JM stuff that is similar. I think that critics would like to say that he can't swing, but I don't think that he intended for the "swing" factor on a lot of his stuff. He was going for something else. The critics just want to pigeon hole him because they don't understand his creativity IMHO. I can't say that I do, but I like it all nonetheless.

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I really like that album actually.
    my main problem with it is the chorus really bothers me. it's like too much of one flavor of something sonically for me. his playing is great though, honestly in some ways better than I remembered.

  42. #91

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    ...And so it goes....

    I mean the endless debate. Cool with me, I guess.

    There are so many ways to swing: Wes and Christian were EXCITING. Wes played on top of the beat, and you LEANED IN to what he was gonna do next. That's excitement. Jimmy Raney and Eddie Diehl have centered beats, very relaxed, ditto Grant Green and---in his own unique way---Jim Hall. Early Jim Hall has more in common w/the swing era players than bebop. He even said as much in DB interview from '62 or so.

    The modern thing is more white guys who grew up with rock and R &B---straight 8th rhythms. They got into jazz after that grounding. Why would they swing in the same way as the previous generation? Everything changes, and evolution is good.

    As for me, if it's pop I never try to swing it. Wrong approach. MAYBE you can lightly swing a tune like A World Without Love. Wake Me Up When September Ends would sound silly swung, as most attempts to swing Beatles. Let it, um, be.

    Reminds me of an old Jewish story told by Isaac Bashevis Singer---and probably Sholom Malechim (sp?) before him:

    'A farmer was dead set on teaching his horse to talk. He worked every day, whispering into the beast's ear---to no avail.

    Finally one day, after the farmer trying again, the horse opened his mouth to utter:

    "Let me be a horse"'

  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    Here's Herb and Barney doing "Tangerine." Strong swing here.


    I know the thread is more than two years old, but THIS... is awesome!
    Have I found it yet? I said that but I didn’t knew it. Did I knew that I had found it yet? No, it wasn’t what I was looking for. Nevermind. Ok.

    -Pataphysical monologue based on Cartesian theory

  44. #93

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    Herb Ellis swings harder than a Donkey's d#*k.

  45. #94

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    Slim Gaillard on guitar. Swingin the shit out of it.

  46. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbmaj7#5#9 View Post
    I know the thread is more than two years old, but THIS... is awesome!
    That's great rhythm guitar by Barney during Herb's solo. Best thing I've heard Barney do.

  47. #96

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    Junior Barnard



    Oscar Moore



    George Barnes - a swinging live perfermance



    Joaquin Murphey (steel guitar)



    Tom Morrell (steel) with Clint Strong (guitar)


  48. #97

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    Tommy Morrell was a great musician, and his Time Warp Top Hands were an excellent group. Lots of good stuff from them on YouTube. I prefer Rich O'Brien to Strong, but that's just me. Here he is with Bruce Forman and Whit Smith, The High Plains Riffters. I really like that album.

  49. #98

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    Best swingers? There are lots. If I had to pick one right now - Jimmy Raney. There's an effortlessness to his playing which is deceptive.



    But Joe Pass has got to be in there too.

  50. #99

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    The reason I put Joe up there is because any decent jazz player can swing - otherwise they're not doing jazz - but when Joe did it he didn't just keep time, he made the time. You feel that he's leading the backing, not just following it. Like some players can sound like they're doing.


  51. #100

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    I think Bruce Forman really swings