Two categories of Jazz guitarists

[henryrobinett]

Once again I apologize for not reading the whole thread, but I've noticed a lot of people who don't play instruments but like to write about it or talk about it, speak of great musicians who don't know how to read as not knowing music theory. As we all know the two are entirely separate. This myth about Wes not knowing music theory is just that.

[pkirk]

ugh! when will this type of question be put to rest? Can Julia Child make good Sushi? Did Babe Ruth play Lacrosse well? Did D'angelico know how to build a great sounding saxophone?

Wes was one of the greatest jazz improvisors. *By definition* he had the knowledge needed to improvise in the jazz idiom, in great depth and detail. A better question than "did he "play by ear or did he know "theory"?" is "what did he know and how can I learn some of that?"

<pompous rant>
In my opinion the assertion that he (and other jazz musicians) were "intuitive" rather than "trained" is a reflection of the popular notion in white america at the time (unfortunately still common) that African Americans are not cerebral, and hence there must be some "idiot savant" explanation for the plain fact that the art they produced was so profound. The fact that "trained musician" is often used as a synonym of "good sight reader who has studied the western European classical musical tradition" is the same sort of mistake

And: the amount of "theory" (in the sense that that word is used frequently here) needed to play jazz isn't that complicated or deep, and it forms only a part of the many ingredients decent improvisation requires.
</pompous rant>

Incidentally, is there any jazz musician whose playing is more "joyous" than Wes's? I'd love to have some knowledge that could point me more in that direction.

[henryrobinett]

^^^^^ This! I was going to go there but decided against it. A black man saying this is just not acceptable in this society. But it's true nonetheless.

[MarkRhodes]

<pompous rant>
In my opinion the assertion that he (and other jazz musicians) were "intuitive" rather than "trained" is a reflection of the popular notion in white america at the time (unfortunately still common) that African Americans are not cerebral, and hence there must be some "idiot savant" explanation for the plain fact that the art they produced was so profound. The fact that "trained musician" is often used as a synonym of "good sight reader who has studied the western European classical musical tradition" is the same sort of mistake

I think for a long time "trained musician" meant "classically trained." Wes was born in 1923. Were there any non-classical musical schools around then? I don't know. I wonder how many there were in 1943. Or even 1950.

The idea of being self-taught (and self-made, or a "natural") has a lot of resonance with Americans. Chet Atkins was self-taught but I don't think anyone takes that mean he was unintelligent. Or a savant. Many American writers, actors, singers, and other artists have prided themselves on NOT studying writing (or acting or singing or whatever) in college. Some have taken a perverse pride in not going to college at all. Some dropped out of high school, for that matter. Some believe this makes them seem more authentic.

I believe Django is seen by many as self-taught (or at least 'not formally trained', whether he was or not.) To this day, Gypsy Jazz is seen as high-spirited and non-academic (-albeit highly accomplished) yet no one (as far as I know) thinks people who play that music are unintelligent. Lot of dazzling country pickers who didn't go to music school----does anyone assume they're not smart enough, or just not cerebral? I should hope not!

Charlie Christian was not classically / formally trained and neither was George Benson or Barney Kessel or Herb Ellis. (Herb spent a few semesters studying bass at North Texas State---they didn't even have a program for guitar!---but couldn't afford to stay so he went on the road.)

Horace Hatchett graduated from the Eastman School of Music and taught a lot of other players (among them, Carol Kaye and Howard Roberts). I don't know if that would make Carol and Howard count as classically trained. Or even 'formally trained.'

I think jazz was the first kind of music after classical that it seemed worthy of building a college curriculum around. But that's a very recent development. And of course, it is not thought of as "classical training".

But many (most?) early jazz musicians had not been to college at all, let alone music school. Many hadn't finished high school for that matter.
Think of it this way: who cared whether Charlie Christian went to music school? Or Prince, for that matter?

[Veritas]

This thread got me to thinking, and I just Googled a question whether Birelli Lagrene reads music essentially. This quite interesting interview link came up. It's long, but relevant to the discussion. And of course, Birelli is a rather brilliant musician, no?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...W_j7KqUqQ5oTew

[Robertkoa]

The "Wes didn't know anything about music" myth has been debunked over and over and over and...

Exactly- there was a quote by I think Andre Previn who was Conducting or Producing something( a Recording) that Wes was Playing on and Previn said to Wes
' You were Playing in the wrong Key but it sounded so good I didn't want to stop you.'

Wes was probably Playing in a Related Key or using Target Tones and maybe chromatics that Previn didn't hear properly and didn't fully get what Wes was doing- even if it was by ear.


Even to my ears - Wes' Chord Voicings were FAR too advanced for anyone with no theory knowledge to
employ...especially Playing with Keyboardists and other Top Musicians.

How he did it mostly alone with no or little Instruction and almost no one before him to emulate
and then have it come together so well...that's Pure Genius either way.

And he was so relaxed and polished when he played...

[lammie200]

I have seen a video with Bireli playing and someone asking him to play specific chords. He struggled and admitted that he didn't know them by their musical names.

In the interview above he talked a bit about listening and knowing the notes on the fret board. I think that something that is rarely discussed in these threads about those of us that rely on our ears more so than relying on intellectualizing from music theory while playing is the fact that there are only 72 note pitches on the guitar fretboard pattern up to the point where everything repeats up an octave. Seventy two note pitches are probably not too many to commit to memory for the average human. If you heard recordings of the voices of 72 of your friends, coworkers, family, etc. you might be able to identify them all.

Although, unlike the guitar, the pattern of piano keys is laid out in a completely linear fashion, but there are 88 note pitches to commit to memory. By memory I mean aural, visual, and physical technique for playing them. If it was Frank Zappa that said "Shut up 'n play yer guitar", I would add the extensions and say "Shut up, then listen to some music, then shut up again and play yer guitar, then do it over again and again and so on and so forth."

P.S. A classically trained musician that cannot improvise may have committed their memory to written note pitches and not the aural note pitches. At least not in a way that allows them to utilize their aural memories.

[destinytot]

I think for a long time "trained musician" meant "classically trained." Wes was born in 1923. Were there any non-classical musical schools around then? I don't know. I wonder how many there were in 1943. Or even 1950.

The idea of being self-taught (and self-made, or a "natural") has a lot of resonance with Americans. Chet Atkins was self-taught but I don't think anyone takes that mean he was unintelligent. Or a savant. Many American writers, actors, singers, and other artists have prided themselves on NOT studying writing (or acting or singing or whatever) in college. Some have taken a perverse pride in not going to college at all. Some dropped out of high school, for that matter. Some believe this makes them seem more authentic.

I believe Django is seen by many as self-taught (or at least 'not formally trained', whether he was or not.) To this day, Gypsy Jazz is seen as high-spirited and non-academic (-albeit highly accomplished) yet no one (as far as I know) thinks people who play that music are unintelligent. Lot of dazzling country pickers who didn't go to music school----does anyone assume they're not smart enough, or just not cerebral? I should hope not!

Charlie Christian was not classically / formally trained and neither was George Benson or Barney Kessel or Herb Ellis. (Herb spent a few semesters studying bass at North Texas State---they didn't even have a program for guitar!---but couldn't afford to stay so he went on the road.)

Horace Hatchett graduated from the Eastman School of Music and taught a lot of other players (among them, Carol Kaye and Howard Roberts). I don't know if that would make Carol and Howard count as classically trained. Or even 'formally trained.'

I think jazz was the first kind of music after jazz that it seemed worthy of building a college curriculum around. But that's a very recent development. And of course, it is not thought of as "classical training".

But many (most?) early jazz musicians had not been to college at all, let alone music school. Many hadn't finished high school for that matter.
Think of it this way: who cared whether Charlie Christian went to music school? Or Prince, for that matter?

(I genuinely believe that you do, but I nevertheless ask rhetorically...)
Have you any idea how far-reaching the consequences of a thoughtful post like this can be?

Beautiful - thank you.

The biggest danger is bitterness and resentment. What you point out alleviates this in no small way.

Dizzy talked about the Three Gs - time to make that Four... by getting my groove on!

[jameslovestal]

Horace Hatchett graduated from the Eastman School of Music and taught a lot of other players (among them, Carol Kaye and Howard Roberts). I don't know if that would make Carol and Howard count as classically trained. Or even 'formally trained.' [/QUOTE]

***
A close friend of mine took a few lessons from Hatchett 40 or so years ago and he made me copies of Hachett's lesson plans. I would say that if one covers all that material they are well trained (but "formally trained", well that depends on how one defines 'formally', but the material was highly structured and that smells like 'formal' to me).

I never meet Hatchett but he is responsible for getting my group of friends in the Long Beach \ Seal Beach area of CA into jazz guitar and one can hear his influence in our playing.

[Robertkoa]

ugh! when will this type of question be put to rest? Can Julia Child make good Sushi? Did Babe Ruth play Lacrosse well? Did D'angelico know how to build a great sounding saxophone?

Wes was one of the greatest jazz improvisors. *By definition* he had the knowledge needed to improvise in the jazz idiom, in great depth and detail. A better question than "did he "play by ear or did he know "theory"?" is "what did he know and how can I learn some of that?"

<pompous rant>
In my opinion the assertion that he (and other jazz musicians) were "intuitive" rather than "trained" is a reflection of the popular notion in white america at the time (unfortunately still common) that African Americans are not cerebral, and hence there must be some "idiot savant" explanation for the plain fact that the art they produced was so profound. The fact that "trained musician" is often used as a synonym of "good sight reader who has studied the western European classical musical tradition" is the same sort of mistake

And: the amount of "theory" (in the sense that that word is used frequently here) needed to play jazz isn't that complicated or deep, and it forms only a part of the many ingredients decent improvisation requires.
</pompous rant>

Incidentally, is there any jazz musician whose playing is more "joyous" than Wes's? I'd love to have some knowledge that could point me more in that direction.

Well- if you grew up on Rock and R&B like me MAYBE George Benson...
But Benson took Charlie Christian and Wes and added Miraculous Chops and more Urban Time Feel
( not that Christian and Wes did not have great time feel ).
But Benson was cut from the same mold as Christian and Wes except for me Benson is as funky as Prince or Hendrix or Stevie Wonder despite being a Jazz Master - he is an amazing R&B and Funk Guitarist - even while he is playing Jazz often ( ! ).

Similar to Benson - Mike Brecker on Sax.

Both those guys MIGHT make you feel as good as Wes does..

My bias is all over this Post, admittedly.

[MarkRhodes]

Horace Hatchett graduated from the Eastman School of Music and taught a lot of other players (among them, Carol Kaye and Howard Roberts). I don't know if that would make Carol and Howard count as classically trained. Or even 'formally trained.'

***
A close friend of mine took a few lessons from Hatchett 40 or so years ago and he made me copies of Hachett's lesson plans. I would say that if one covers all that material they are well trained (but "formally trained", well that depends on how one defines 'formally', but the material was highly structured and that smells like 'formal' to me).

I never meet Hatchett but he is responsible for getting my group of friends in the Long Beach \ Seal Beach area of CA into jazz guitar and one can hear his influence in our playing.[/QUOTE]

Nice to hear.

I agree with you that "formal" or "formally" (as in training or trained) may be variously defined. (There's no definition of it I'd be willing to fight over.)

Funny about Horace's lessons. There is a sheet on 'net about a lesson of Horace's. I think it's the changes to "Cry Me A River." Here's an article about Horace and there's a quote below it from Carol Kaye. She told me her first lesson with him was "Tea For Two."

Carol is an interesting case here, as she was a pro's pro and she thinks there were things about music one needs to know (beginning with "the chordal scale", triads, and stacks of triads) but she doesn't think they are hard to learn or that it take much time to learn them. She does like to say, "Don't analyze--play!"

http://utstat.utoronto.ca/mikevans/h.../hatchett.html

[cosmic gumbo]

So..anyway, I know a lot of formally trained instrumentalists, and what makes people think that training on an instrument...piano, violin, cello, trumpet, reeds, etc....includes any training in music theory??

Mostly these folks have been trained to master the physical techniques needed to play the sheet music they've trained to expertly read.

Hey Joe basoon, what are the notes in a Bbm7b5 chord? Er...he probably doesn't know. Most guitarists are in a little world without much awareness of how the rest of the musical world functions, and make some pretty interesting assumptions. Not meant to be a putdown.

[Stevebol]

I think for a long time "trained musician" meant "classically trained." Wes was born in 1923. Were there any non-classical musical schools around then? I don't know. I wonder how many there were in 1943. Or even 1950.

The idea of being self-taught (and self-made, or a "natural") has a lot of resonance with Americans. Chet Atkins was self-taught but I don't think anyone takes that mean he was unintelligent. Or a savant. Many American writers, actors, singers, and other artists have prided themselves on NOT studying writing (or acting or singing or whatever) in college. Some have taken a perverse pride in not going to college at all. Some dropped out of high school, for that matter. Some believe this makes them seem more authentic.

I believe Django is seen by many as self-taught (or at least 'not formally trained', whether he was or not.) To this day, Gypsy Jazz is seen as high-spirited and non-academic (-albeit highly accomplished) yet no one (as far as I know) thinks people who play that music are unintelligent. Lot of dazzling country pickers who didn't go to music school----does anyone assume they're not smart enough, or just not cerebral? I should hope not!

Charlie Christian was not classically / formally trained and neither was George Benson or Barney Kessel or Herb Ellis. (Herb spent a few semesters studying bass at North Texas State---they didn't even have a program for guitar!---but couldn't afford to stay so he went on the road.)

Horace Hatchett graduated from the Eastman School of Music and taught a lot of other players (among them, Carol Kaye and Howard Roberts). I don't know if that would make Carol and Howard count as classically trained. Or even 'formally trained.'

I think jazz was the first kind of music after classical that it seemed worthy of building a college curriculum around. But that's a very recent development. And of course, it is not thought of as "classical training".

But many (most?) early jazz musicians had not been to college at all, let alone music school. Many hadn't finished high school for that matter.
Think of it this way: who cared whether Charlie Christian went to music school? Or Prince, for that matter?

"The idea of being self-taught (and self-made, or a "natural") has a lot of resonance with Americans."

That's less true today.

"Some have taken a perverse pride in not going to college at all."

Unfortunately there's a lot of truth to that. I never would have learned about overseas circuits if I had gone to college. It took many years to realize I had a distorted sense of pride about some things.

"Some dropped out of high school, for that matter. Some believe this makes them seem more authentic."

I hear all the time how jazz musicians drooped out of college because they were getting offers for gigs. It's no different than the high school drop out syndrome.

[MarkRhodes]

Mostly these folks have been trained to master the physical techniques needed to play the sheet music they've trained to expertly read.

[Cunamara]

I am a bit obsessed with Wes, and the reason I and probably many others want to know how good his music theory knowledge was, is to try and get a handle on what is important when trying to learn to play jazz (on the guitar).

This is gonna be blunt, sorry.

Why are you wasting time trying to figure out what Wes did or didn't know? Even if you knew that, it would not make the slightest difference in your own learning. You need to learn what you need to learn- you are coming from a different time and place than Wes, so your learning needs are different.

Most of what you need to know is not unique to the guitar.

Time and groove are the first things to learn; if your time is bad, nothing you play will sound good except by accident. You need to be able to swing, to play straight 8ths, to play bossa and latin competently. Wes had impeccable time.

You need to learn songs (melody and chords) by heart, and to be able to play them in different keys on request. Without a chart in front of you. Whether or not Wes could sight read was immaterial- for his generation, there were rarely charts on the bandstand anyway. The best way to learn songs is to learn them by ear, not from paper.

You need to be able to play by ear, because if you gig you will be confronted with a tune being called that you don't know and there will not be a chart. You need to be able to hear the changes (major, minor, dominant, augmented, diminished). You can develop this by playing along with records a lot. When you hear a line or a lick or a chord that you like, stop and figure it out. Hard at first, becomes much easier pretty quickly.

And: don't start with Wes. Start with Charlie Christian. Listen to what he does. Learn his solos. That's the foundation of jazz guitar right there. Wes learned and could play all of Charlie's solos note for note and only after that he added his own thing. Charlie is our great-grandfather. And Charlie obviously listened to and learned from Louis Armstrong, who is the great-great-grandfather of all jazz musicians.

Jazz theory provides a way to explain and discuss what was played, but it is a post-hoc process. It can help solidify what you have played and heard. If you think "gee, this is a great time for the third mode of the Eb superlocrian scale" then you stopped playing jazz a couple of exits back.

[Woody Sound]

If the latter is true I wonder who else was largely ignorant of music theory and played completely by ear. Maybe Joe Pass?

I would say that the ability to read, and understanding theory, might be two different "knowledges."

In any case, IIRC, I believe George Benson cannot read music, and plays by ear.

[Robertkoa]

I would say that the ability to read, and understanding theory, might be two different "knowledges."

In any case, IIRC, I believe George Benson cannot read music, and plays by ear.

Yes I would definitely agree with the Reading versus Theory Knowledge thing.

I can barely read ( like a one month Piano Student - lol) but I think in Roman Numerals and understand secondary Dominants and Secondary Vii° etc.Intervals and I bet Benson knows this stuff.

HOWEVER - to more fully understand the Rhythms I am Playing/ Writing I will probably want/need to
understand Rhythmic Notation to more FULLY EXPLORE Rhythmic Variations/ Polyrhythms etc.

When I really Sync my Rhythm Parts to a Beat - I am almost 'reading ' anyway.

Sight reading- don't have enough time to develop that..I need to Produce...
But -I have been learning a lot here from the Jazz Guys. ( Thanks ).

Almost ALL Guitarists who have become Great got their Technique down relatively early from about age 13 to 20 THEN had time to develop/ explore their Style(s).

It IS possible to develop later of course, technically.

As someone who is learning more theory and relearning what I missed when younger- I have noticed that the more Creative Players even back in the 80's were People who knew more Theory- not necessarily sight readers .

Also I would be very Surprised if Benson could not almost instantly 'follow' a Chord Chart with Variations of the Chords and arpeggiate most of them if he chose to.

He knows II- V-i's and ii - V - i's and how they interlock with Diatonic or Modulating Sequences so to say he doesn't know Theory might be really far off-

He also might be able to sing a Fifth a b7th and a lot of other Intervals really easily- and he has some of the lowest* 'lag time 'of ANY Guitarist in History- so he could near Instantly play or sing most Intervals - I am guessing but I think his Theory is fairly Advanced.

*Lag Time- how long does it take an Improviser to mentally hear a Note or Phrase and Play it IN TIME &Rhythm to the Beat / Track/ Song....

Rocker with very low' lag time '- Eddie Van Halen..

Jazz Guitarists need a low 'lag time ' to swing and play as well as they do in Rhythm especially through the chord changes- and the Top Jazz Musicians are ridiculously good at this...I know this because I am Jealous - haha.

So what is my point ?
I actually have one in this Post ..
Really -almost everyone plays ' by ear ' when they are actually Playing- not much time to do anything else..

Also I just remembered a Video where Benson mentioned ( I think he said bVII Major is a back door V to a Major Seventh Chord- a reference to a Backdoor Progression or Cadence= advanced Practical Theory Knowledge) -

Also Benson knows EXACTLY where the Modulations and Vamps end and where the Bridge Starts etc. Even I can tell that watching him improv.
So he knows it's 16 or 32 Bars etc. till next Section..
And sometimes he anticipates the new section by half a Beat or 1/8 Note- he really knows where he is.

Just like Woody says- two different 'Knowledges'


Plus even though inspiring and you can play well without a LOT of theory in some ways...
Where there are Modulations to New Keys- theory or not - you must have a way to feel the New Key Center and the shifting ' values' of the Chord of the Moment-

etc.
Birelli LaGrene and Benson are very atypical for most of us because they were Prodigees - both playing well at very young ages like grown men and LaGrene maybe even moreso at 13 or 14 -



'It's not what you know - it's what you can Play-'
'But often the more you know- the more you CAN hear and Play.'

Robert K Scorpio 2017

[jameslovestal]

Thanks for saying what I was going to. As you noted there are degrees to 'reading music'. I can't believe a guitar player like Benson can't read the chord symbols from a lead sheet and translate that to chord voicing on a guitar. (come on even my rock and blues buddies can do this!).

As for music theory; many layers of knowledge there as well but every jazz guitar player I have ever known understands basic theory concepts like; II-V-I in the key of G. I.e. I can call this out and they can play it.

As for 'we all play by ear'; Well that wasn't the case with me the first 10 or so years I played jazz guitar; I was thinking 'oh, this is where the song changes keys from F to Ab, so I need to change the scale I'm using'. (and it was obvious that I was changing scales since it wasn't fluid and I didn't 'connect the tones' between the scales). But after practicing a song many times at a slow tempo, as well as playing over common harmonic patterns (thanks band-in-the-box), the practice paid off and I can now play the changes without having to think.

[Lobomov]

As for 'we all play by ear

This reminds me of one of my early jazz guitar lessons. My teacher had just walked me thru Yesterdays and started talking about playing by ear vs more deliberate playing and at some point said the following:

You know there are many (horn) players that say they playing by ear, but somehow their ability to improvise disappears when I reharmonize the tune.

[dallasblues]

I'm totally into the really early New Orleans style jazz. I'm not sure how that'd be classified... but I like it!

[lammie200]

...
"Some dropped out of high school, for that matter. Some believe this makes them seem more authentic.

My neighbor who has a Phd married a high school drop out tattoo artist. I am sure that she felt he was a very genuine individual. It worked for about 5 years. The divorce should be finalized in the next few weeks.

[pubylakeg]

The last three years I have been playing with a classical pianist who wants to learn jazz. This guy can sight read very well. I can read music (as a child I played classical violin), but not sight read. (e.g. I can't play a tune in 'real time' I have never heard before from reading the music, but for this pianist it isn't a problem at all).

When we started this pianist couldn't even play a 1\4\5 blues tune. He asked for the music but lead sheets were not useful. I got him an Aebersold transcription of one of the volumes (this showed the exact notes being played by the piano for the harmony). We focused on Summertime. He could sight read this and sounded just like the Aebersold recording (which I also provided) after a few weeks. The problem was without this music in front of him he was helpless. I.e. it didn't teach him how to play jazz piano. It took another year for him to apply what was in those transcriptions to playing music. E.g. how to approach 4 bars of a minor 7 chord, or a 2-5-1, or non-functioning Dom7 chords (Sweet Georgia Brown progression).

But he still can't play 'new' songs very well. I.e. the need for detailed sheet music is still out there.

No derail intended, but would very highly recommend this book, (and the others in the series).
Bebop Jazz Piano (Hal Leonard Keyboard Style Series): John Valerio: 9780634033537: Amazon.com: Books

I think a lot of guitarists could benefit from it too.

[deacon Mark]

I always like to make comparisons of music ability to athletic ability and training because more people can identify with the concept. Also being a very old slow runner it makes sense. I can train all I want and still will not have 50 second quarter speed my son has.

A gifted runner with lots of speed at very short distances will probably be the fastest even if they move up in longer distance because the talent is a "given." Since I am a deacon I will say this is a gift from God. Now at some point they need to really have a more intellectual understanding because the less talented are going to be studying the material. Over-achievers can make gains and speak in special academic language. The natural can do this to but they just do it faster and later learn the language. Nothing wrong with over-achievers just a reality check they they work a bit harder on some aspects.

So the gifted runner gets serious and starts to think about pacing and trying to extract the most out of his given abilities. All of a sudden if you explain the language it really is the same as the rest of world they just later adapt to what they already are able to do. This does not down play the work and training of those gifted it just means they are those who have a natural ability start from a different point.

So back to my runner analogy. My very fast running son when racing still knows all about pacing and strategy, he just came at if from another angle. He had to learn that talent only gets a person so far..............after awhile you have to still think.

I bet that make no sense to anyone.

[Papawooly]

I will say it again...
Wes was an alien from another planet...
sent here by the Gods to show us mortals how great music should sound...
and how to look super-cool whilst doing so.

Case in point...

[WILSON 1]

Speaking of Joe Pass...

I had a video of one of his Hot Licks lessons and as he was explaining a concept he struck a note up in the 11th position that he was unsure of and reached back to the first position to name it!

That was enough for me!

If anyone could reach that level of musicianship and be as blind as me in the 11th position...then I would keep on studying.