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Hmmm. Getz & Raney at Storyville. That was a brand new sound for a band. Something never heard before that changed the music to come. Many giants from that era confirmed they were blown away by this 5tet which made a lasting mark in jazz history. I don't agree with your statement.
+ 1 for this statement!
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04-05-2017 04:48 PM
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getz & johnny smith's 1952 moonlight in vermont quintet sessions weren't too bad either!!! hah
downbeat readers poll #2 record of 1952!
cheers
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How are you defining "historical impact?" Being a pivot point in jazz development as leaders like Dizzy, Bird, Miles, Trane, Ornette? There are only a handful of musicians about whom that can be said. No drummers, 'bonists, or pianists on that rarified list. It is a tiny number of musicians who changed the course of jazz in a clearly identifiable way. Even the great Bill Evans mainly influenced how pianists play, not how jazz is played.
Originally Posted by ingeneri
OTOH Charlie Christian was present at the sessions that gave birth to bebop and influenced Bird. Jim Hall was present at the origination of West Coast jazz, chamber jazz, folk jazz and also was a central voice in the post-bop era. Django invented a whole genre of music. Guitarists were prominent in trio music (Nat Cole, Red Norvo, Oscar Petersen, George Shearing, organ trios with George Benson and Pat Martino, etc., etc.). Bossa nova- driven by guitar. Fusion was very guitar-driven, too. Etc.
Jazz guitarists have an inferiority complex about our instrument and its role in the music. We think we have to solo like horns, comp like pianos, and go along with being told that we haven't contributed. BS, I say.
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Guitarists ruled fusion, however. Originally Posted by ingeneri
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The way I understood the quote it was more about impact on Jazz guitar, not jazz overall. Burrell, Kessel, Tal... they're ok, good, very solid jazz guitarists, but they would be forever in the shadow of giants of CC and Wes. That how I understand it, anyway. Of course, it's very subjective, and I would never voiced it if didn't hear that quote. When I did, I was like, yeah, that's how I feel pretty much too. Somewhat... kinda.... Originally Posted by ingeneri
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I believe it was actually a strike by the musicians union or the recording union or something like that… Maybe with music publishing. The effect was that there was tons of music being played live but very little recording being done. Had nothing to do with the War. everything to do with general strike. Originally Posted by wintermoon
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Yes - the so called Petrillo ban. The increasing distribution and popularity of "juke boxes" began to take big chunks out the live music business - live music as entertainmant in bars and clubs. The union demended a compensation for the musicians from the record producing industry. Originally Posted by SamBooka
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We are arguing the same point. If you look at the quote I was referencing, I was only discussing the lack of influence of guitar led dates between Christian's death and 1959. But the rest of my statement, which you omitted, was precisely the same point: that this misses the broader more subtle influence of the guitar throughout the music in the 1950s. I actually cited some of the same examples, such as Oscar Petterson and the organ trios. Originally Posted by Cunamara
And yeah, it's a very rarefied list of people who have influenced the music in its entirety and not just their own instrument. For the 1950s, I'd add Art Blakey, along with Horace Silver, to that list. Hardly limited to Jazz, as you can argue that Chopin who was peerless on the piano is still less influential than Beethovan who created the entire Romantic movement that dominated European concert music for the entire 19th century.
Christian was at Minton's but, like a lot of players at those jam sessions, he was a Swing player not a Be Bopper. Nothing wrong with that, and influencing how almost everyone in every genre plays your instrument for the next 75 years before you even turn 21 is no mean feat. I'd liken him to Coleman Hawkins in that regard. Christian and Hawkins basically invented their instruments and everyone who followed, whereas Satch, Ellington, Bird, Miles, etc... influenced how the music was played on every instrument.
I totally would add Bill Evans to that list, as the trio changed not just how the piano played (rootless voicings, whole tone scale), but, with LeFaro, how small Jazz groups interacted instead of soloist on top of rhythm section. But, that group is from the early 1960s and we're talking pre-Wes/pre-1959.
I see West Coast Jazz growing out of Birth of the Cool more than originating with the groups Jim Hall was a member of. I think Hall's post-1959 work is a lot more influential. Again though, his role as a sideman, for example on the Bridge or with Art Farmer, has more influence in setting up how piano-less small groups sound over the last 50 years. In contrast, even Sonny Rollins' 1950s groups didn't have that level of influence (compared to Sonny as a tenor saxophonist personally, who has towering influence over musicians, like Johshua Redman, to this day).
As popular as the Raney-Getz recordings were in their day, I don't think they've had the same kind of long term impact of the Jazz Messengers, Miles' 2 quintets, Bill Evans Trio, etc... At best, its' on the level of Cannonball Adderley's groups in the 1960s, great music and wildly popular but with waning influence in subsequent years.
I agree, post-1969 Bitches Brew it's a completely different story with Fusion and Methany being a touchstone reaching far beyond just guitarists. I actually prefer the older groups, but acknowledge they're not as central to the development of the music overall.
Again, we're talking influence not value. All of these groups produced great music that holds up over half a century later. But, while I love these recordings, they're not all seminal.
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Charlie Christian was one of the creators of bebop, according to Dizzy Gillespie. He oughta know. Originally Posted by ingeneri
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