Pat Metheny on the best guitar player he has ever heard: Pasquale Grasso

[Alter]

there is that AWFUL feeling when you know you have to crank up the volume on the guitar and PAs and all the beautiful sound you work so hard to achieve, calibrated with just a little bit of volume set at the perfect level that creates such a wonderful and beautiful tone...essentially is flushed down the toilet.

it is a different thing altogether, getting a good sound live, specially when playing less than optimal stages. How many interviews have we read from players saying ''i have all these great archtops at home and can't use them live". Reminds me why the ES175 is so popular..

I 've been enjoying Pasquale Grasso's videos for a while, a joy of a player!

[Robertkoa]

Seems like some Players who do a lot of Solo stuff - and IMO Solo Guitar whether
Jazz/ Classical/ Flamenco/Michael Hedges/Tommy Emmanuel/ Kriesburg etc. -the Solo Guitar thing is the hardest to do or you might say more rare to see someone who can really do it extremely well.

To my ears his Time is not as tight and crisp as say Benson or Kriesburg...but for that Style...maybe not so important or most hear it differently...

[fasstrack]

I have to say----and I SWEAR I'm not attempting to derail this thread about a friend and great player---that what I know of Pat Metheny's egotism does not please me---and it's time someone called him on it. HIGH time. I very much enjoy aspects of his playing. When he gets down to brass tacks with an acoustic it can be sublime.

The only 'encounter' I had with Mr. Metheny was actually a non-encounter: In the '80s I was playing with a horrible band in Central Park (the leaders played kazoos---a GOOD thing, since they chose that over their execrable 'drumming'). I dreaded ANYONE seeing/hearing me with that 'aggravation', much less a name player on my instrument. He was evidently enjoying a Sunday park stroll when he chanced to stop and hear us. He then---evidently as a comical 'lark'---asked not ME, but someone else, if he could sit in on my guitar. Had he been man and gentleman enough to ask me directly I---though embarrassed to be heard in that band---would've said 'sure'. The way he comported himself was IMO the height of insensitivity, egotism----and showed no respect for me, not to mention class. I told the guy no, he couldn't sit in on my guitar. I was pissed and felt humiliated (I was also a much younger man). And Metheny never showed his face.

I was also less than pleased at his self-appointed Jazz Emissary attacks on Kenny G. some years ago. Kenny G's actions or music are beside the point. Gonna 'break a guitar over his head'? I have a better idea: Learn to SWING before daring to appoint yourself spokesman for this music (which BTW got along fine w/o you before).

These kind of people go counter to the spirit of brotherhood jazz was about before the me me me crowd took it over. They've about ruined it---or at least muddied the waters---for me...

[christianm77]

I only play a few gigs a year, but even from my limited experience, there is that AWFUL feeling when you know you have to crank up the volume on the guitar and PAs and all the beautiful sound you work so hard to achieve, calibrated with just a little bit of volume set at the perfect level that creates such a wonderful and beautiful tone...essentially is flushed down the toilet.

Yup. There's a reason Gibson made so many of their electric archtops with laminate bodies. I don't beleive it was just cost cutting.

On his instruction videos, Pasquale sounds FANTASTIC. the new ones have the Trenier equipped with the Bitloff suspended CC clone. I mean, he demos a frickin' C scale and the tone alone makes it worthwhile. I am going to put that facsimile suspended on my two best guitars. It's an exceptional pickup.

Quite

My world is entirely inhabited by modern CC and DeArmond RC 1100 knock-offs. There is no need to go past 1955 or so for your electrification needs.

Ha! I was going to say, but what about the Telecaster, but of course those came out in 1949.

In terms of amplification tho - Princeton Reverb? I know that's horribly modern...

I rather enjoyed Adam Rafferty's dictum that a guitarist (he plays acoustic) should have a stage guitar and a home/studio guitar. That's a good way of looking at it for archtops too.

[christianm77]

That's when you play the tele and a little tube amp and say "the hell with it, this sounds great too."

Usually the most reliable option for a small club gig TBH. I wish I could get away with that for Gypsy Jazz haha!

[christianm77]

What an egotistical dickwad, getting himself into a professed compliment to someone else like 2 sentences in. The Truth According to The Oracle. Get over yourself.

I like the way he can't bring himself to mention K**t R*s*nw*nk*l in this context (although he has complimented him in the past similar to PG), who is actually the guitarist most young players are trying to emulate to my ears (or the guys directly influenced by them.) I feel that Metheny isn't really trendy with the younger players.

But that said, he is right that they always talk about horn players and pianists - anything but mention another guitarist. Pretty odd.

[NSJ]

Reflecting on Pasquale made me think of a lot of stuff I learned about the instrument when I was taking lessons, that was *out-of-sight, out of mind* when I decided to play fingerstyle 100%)--basically what I was originally taught and what Pasquale demos are straight from the Chuck Wayne right hand playbook: emphasis not on elbow or wrist picking, but minimizing movement and wasted energy and maximizing control by using the thumb and index finger (P and I) as the locus of control and concentration (that has to come a classical guitar way of thinking): using economy-directional-picking when crossing strings, using pick and fingers (PMAC) to create contrapuntal lines.

I still got my Chuck Wayne scale book and arpeggio book somewhere. This reminds me that I've never ever heard a solo Chuck Wayne record. Wow. Talk about a cat who never ever got his proper due.

I looked at Chuck's Wiki page just and noticed that he also has a unique way of playing harmony and chords on the guitar. Seriously? That hopefully must be codified somewhere else.

[Robertkoa]

You Guys who play live would sometimes
do well to go out in the Audience or Bar etc. and have your Bass Player or someone play some chords through your Rig...doesn't have to be Wes to repeatedly
hit a Min7 etc.
And listen and make some adjustments till it sounds good.

[christianm77]

You Guys who play live would sometimes
do well to go out in the Audience or Bar etc. and have your Bass Player or someone play some chords through your Rig...doesn't have to be Wes to repeatedly
hit a Min7 etc.
And listen and make some adjustments till it sounds good.

Urghhh, not a Min7, the devils chord!!!!!!

(Well it's cool if you are playing soul)

Seriously though... Good advice.... Roll off the bass too. Bassists hate it when guitarists have to much bass on their sound. What you need is lots of midrange in fact, which is why 175's are so handy.

[David B]

Soundwise to me it sounds like that soupy sort of sound you get out of a good archtop and an acoustic amp turned up to gig volume....

When not using the house amp at Smalls (Deluxe Reverb), his own amp is a tiny Polytone, visible here:

[Pat Clare]

When not using the house amp at Smalls (Deluxe Reverb), his own amp is a tiny Polytone, visible here:

Sounds good to me. I prefer the non effects approach.

[fasstrack]

I like the way he can't bring himself to mention K**t R*s*nw*nk*

Even a bigger asshat than Metheny.

'Don't get me started'---

The old Jewish comic Billy Crystal character from SNL...

[Alter]

You Guys who play live would sometimes
do well to go out in the Audience or Bar etc. and have your Bass Player or someone play some chords through your Rig..

or have a small looper around

[joaopaz]

or have a small looper around

My hat's off to you, Sir

[ronjazz]

I have to say----and I SWEAR I'm not attempting to derail this thread about a friend and great player---that what I know of Pat Metheny's egotism does not please me---and it's time someone called him on it. HIGH time. I very much enjoy aspects of his playing. When he gets down to brass tacks with an acoustic it can be sublime.

The only 'encounter' I had with Mr. Metheny was actually a non-encounter: In the '80s I was playing with a horrible band in Central Park (the leaders played kazoos---a GOOD thing, since they chose that over their execrable 'drumming'). I dreaded ANYONE seeing/hearing me with that 'aggravation', much less a name player on my instrument. He was evidently enjoying a Sunday park stroll when he chanced to stop and hear us. He then---evidently as a comical 'lark'---asked not ME, but someone else, if he could sit in on my guitar. Had he been man and gentleman enough to ask me directly I---though embarrassed to be heard in that band---would've said 'sure'. The way he comported himself was IMO the height of insensitivity, egotism----and showed no respect for me, not to mention class. I told the guy no, he couldn't sit in on my guitar. I was pissed and felt humiliated (I was also a much younger man). And Metheny never showed his face.

I was also less than pleased at his self-appointed Jazz Emissary attacks on Kenny G. some years ago. Kenny G's actions or music are beside the point. Gonna 'break a guitar over his head'? I have a better idea: Learn to SWING before daring to appoint yourself spokesman for this music (which BTW got along fine w/o you before).

These kind of people go counter to the spirit of brotherhood jazz was about before the me me me crowd took it over. They've about ruined it---or at least muddied the waters---for me...

You have issues. Metheny swings. Metheny is extraordinarily successful. Metheny is honest (this is the part that gets some so triggered). By the way, the music was dying before he revived the audience for it. And you are certainly not the one to "call him out" for anything. He has appointed himself spokesman for nothing; people ask his opinion, he gives them his opinion. You are entitled to yours, as well, but it seems based on some perceived macho slight. Perhaps you should get over it.

[destinytot]

Love this line: "What I woudn't give for a large sock with horse manure in it..."

[destinytot]

Metheny swings.

Speaks to me in another way. For example, this - for me - was/is prayer:

[joaopaz]

Just want to say...
About Grasso, absolutely amazing technically - but from what I heard so far this is not my playground musically. If you can't join the two things the first one does me little.

About Metheny - pretty amazing in everything he does - the most influential player since...? he can go far out when needed and can come up with some of the most beautifully haunting tunes I ever heard.
I'm currently listening non stop to his album with Jim Hall. Wonderful.
He may not be on top of hip all the time, but who cares... musically I believe he can do anything he sets his mind and artistry to. From a music lover POV this guy did a lot for my happiness.

[christianm77]

You have issues. Metheny swings. Metheny is extraordinarily successful. Metheny is honest (this is the part that gets some so triggered). By the way, the music was dying before he revived the audience for it. And you are certainly not the one to "call him out" for anything. He has appointed himself spokesman for nothing; people ask his opinion, he gives them his opinion. You are entitled to yours, as well, but it seems based on some perceived macho slight. Perhaps you should get over it.

*eats popcorn*

I dunno Metheny was never my favourite, but there's a lot of rhythmic subtlety in his recordings - I still can only bring myself to listen to Bright Size Life and the stuff when he guest on other people's records. PMG stuff leaves me cold... I went to a PMG gig a while back and left early, so that's my cards on the table, but anyway... I do think he's very good at guitar.

Does Metheny swing like Wes or Jim Hall or Grant Green? No.

Does he swing in another way? Maybe. I'm thinking now of his solo on Mike Brecker's Slings and Arrows. There is a fierce rhythmic pocket to my ears. He's pretty badass and has great time. Swing? Hmmmm, depends on what swing is to you. It has a groove to it.

But then, here's the more genreal vibe... Swing feel, and jazz has changed. Not just that but the whole value system and mentality of jazz improvisation.

These days, the music is more about the 'what' than the 'how'. It used to be the 'how' - bop was a big step 'what'-wards, but the 'how' was still pretty crucial.

I was thinking about that today listening to Chris Flory with Scott Hamilton. You can't show up and play like that on a contemporary gig...

HOWEVER - there's are more places to hide on a contemporary straight eights style gig. You need to have good time to play this stuff sure, but the onus is not on you to swing in the old school sense. Modern stuff can be extremely challenging from a complexity standpoint. It's WHAT you play.

OTOH - I actually think playing mainstream is really hard because although the music is standard songs and the improvisation language is relatively simple, if you don't swing, you are NO GOOD. You have not yet reached the level of competence required to perform the music to a high level. No two ways about it. And nowhere to hide. It's HOW you play.

(That's no to say there aren't loads of mainstream players that don't swing on a local/semi-pro level.)

Especially felt this with Flory and Hamilton because they are avoiding complexity so much in their playing and they are playing songs - basically it's swing stuff, simple melodies, blues, chord tones etc, not even bop lines. If you don't swing that stuff it sounds really boring and flat.

Anyway, not sure where Metheny falls into this spectrum - probably somewhere in the middle - perhaps closer to HOW than those he has influenced. But his HOW is certainly a lot straighter to my ears than the generation before. To many people this would mean he doesn't swing. YMMV

Anyway I don't mean to criticise either approach really, but I do respect simple jazz played swingingly more than I did say 10 years ago :-)

[destinytot]

Blues in Bebop:

[pingu]

You can't argue with that ...
Wow !

Looks like about 10 people in the audience ... !
What you gonna do

[WillMbCdn5]

Quite the threadI'm just commenting as an audience member but never really connected with Metheny so nothing to say since I stopped listening long ago there just always seemed to be some element I cared about that was missing no matter what he did. I am in awe of the musical/instrument specific technique but Grasso seems so in control there is little sense of danger/ little sense of vulnerability / little sense of thin ice / little sense of personal risk it all seems very detached and masterful and very impersonal for me.

Christian - I have digging deep into Chris Flory playing lately - wonderful time/groove/phrasing /swing!!!!!!!! but very different world than Metheny or Grasso

Will

[jbear]

In a list of guitar geniuses, as often as not, you will find Metheny and Rosenwinkel (personal taste accounted for).
Now I will make a list of people in the world who have not acted like a##holes:
1. Nobody
Okay...done.
Those guys are easy targets, and one thing they have in common besides chops and insane swingability when they feel like it (any definition)...they are passionate, intelligent, don't filter their commentary (we have plenty of idiots who operate that way too). That takes stones to put yourself out there like that...if your smart.

[fasstrack]

*eats popcorn*

I dunno Metheny was never my favourite, but there's a lot of rhythmic subtlety in his recordings - I still can only bring myself to listen to Bright Size Life and the stuff when he guest on other people's records. PMG stuff leaves me cold... I went to a PMG gig a while back and left early, so that's my cards on the table, but anyway... I do think he's very good at guitar.

Does Metheny swing like Wes or Jim Hall or Grant Green? No.

Does he swing in another way? Maybe. I'm thinking now of his solo on Mike Brecker's Slings and Arrows. There is a fierce rhythmic pocket to my ears. He's pretty badass and has great time. Swing? Hmmmm, depends on what swing is to you. It has a groove to it.

But then, here's the more genreal vibe... Swing feel, and jazz has changed. Not just that but the whole value system and mentality of jazz improvisation.

These days, the music is more about the 'what' than the 'how'. It used to be the 'how' - bop was a big step 'what'-wards, but the 'how' was still pretty crucial.

I was thinking about that today listening to Chris Flory with Scott Hamilton. You can't show up and play like that on a contemporary gig...

HOWEVER - there's are more places to hide on a contemporary straight eights style gig. You need to have good time to play this stuff sure, but the onus is not on you to swing in the old school sense. Modern stuff can be extremely challenging from a complexity standpoint. It's WHAT you play.

OTOH - I actually think playing mainstream is really hard because although the music is standard songs and the improvisation language is relatively simple, if you don't swing, you are NO GOOD. You have not yet reached the level of competence required to perform the music to a high level. No two ways about it. And nowhere to hide. It's HOW you play.

(That's no to say there aren't loads of mainstream players that don't swing on a local/semi-pro level.)

Especially felt this with Flory and Hamilton because they are avoiding complexity so much in their playing and they are playing songs - basically it's swing stuff, simple melodies, blues, chord tones etc, not even bop lines. If you don't swing that stuff it sounds really boring and flat.

Anyway, not sure where Metheny falls into this spectrum - probably somewhere in the middle - perhaps closer to HOW than those he has influenced. But his HOW is certainly a lot straighter to my ears than the generation before. To many people this would mean he doesn't swing. YMMV

Anyway I don't mean to criticise either approach really, but I do respect simple jazz played swingingly more than I did say 10 years ago :-)

I think he has great time. I think he brought something original and fresh to the guitar and music. But, call me old-fashioned or whatever else, if you are representing yourself as a jazz player (especially if you're gonna put yourself out there as a spokesperson for the music) ALL of the syntax should be mastered FIRST, THEN thrown away. I like and respect a lot of his work, but am troubled that I can't pat (no stupid pun intended) my foot to him. Swing is an important component of the jazz lexicon to me. I know I'm older than many here, but that's what I learned and believe in. There ought to be IMO a lineage, where certain key elements are retained even when healthy change is needed. John Birks Gillespie called it 'evolution'. Miles Davis refreshed his playing by changing the settings. To me his OWN playing only radically changed once: in that '60s quintet he got more chromatic and 'out' in some ways. Stan Getz also challenged himself. All retained the basics and built on them.

I don't want to make this about me, but just a quick few points:

I detest elitism in any form.

I'm a '60s baby who went to Woodstock and saw and felt firsthand the power of music to unite all kinds of people.

I've little patience for musicians---myself included at times---who block their own growth refusing to let go of dogma or refusing to move beyond a given period of music, proclaiming themselves 'keepers of the flame'---or some such nonsense. Knowledge is power, stasis is antithetical to creative growth----and the best part: after you get the musical 'wanderlust' out of your system you can always 'go home' again to the way you played before, but having grown artistically.

The things I said in a personal sense are based on what I observed or saw up close. Maybe I'm wrong, and if I met him it would be a whole other thing---and I'd be the first person to retract what I wrote. I was a big-time Wynton and Stanley Crouch hater until I met them both and they were totally cool, especially Crouch. Also, I had grown up some and gotten over my misplaced anger and jealousy.

People ought to reserve the right to hold opinions, as long as they are willing to re-examine and reconsider them---AND not take themselves or much of anything else all that seriously. It's only music. It's only life, and we're ALL guilty of being overly self-absorbed, especially those of us in the arts.

The best way to give a musical opinion is by PLAYING.

I'm trying. I SWEAR I'm trying...

[fasstrack]

In a list of guitar geniuses, as often as not, you will find Metheny and Rosenwinkel (personal taste accounted for).
Now I will make a list of people in the world who have not acted like a##holes:
1. Nobody
Okay...done.
Those guys are easy targets, and one thing they have in common besides chops and insane swingability when they feel like it (any definition)...they are passionate, intelligent, don't filter their commentary (we have plenty of idiots who operate that way too). That takes stones to put yourself out there like that...if your smart.

I hear what you're getting at, and think: yes and no.

It definitely takes all kinds to make the world. Big talent often comes with big egos, but not always. The jazz musicians who schooled me may have been fucked up in some ways, into drugs, etc., but they were all down-to-earth generous souls who believed this thing was a brotherhood one only needed talent and 'realness' to join and be embraced by.

I personally find arrogance and self-importance not only unnecessary, but counter to that brotherhood spirit. For example, I found Joe Zawinul's public statements re Barry Harris and Wynton Marsalis repugnant and self-serving in the extreme: An interviewer asked him about some recording, and he replied that Barry had mentioned (as a compliment---understand the position of white, especially European, players back then) that he couldn't tell whether it was he or Zawinul on the date. Zawinul's response was stunning:

(Paraphrasing) 'I decided right then and there never to listen to piano players again---if the best I could do was be an imitator of an imitator'. (I assume he was saying Barry was a Bud imitator?). Just arrogant, self-serving and in the worst possible taste.

After he was given a coveted spot at JALC he went public slamming Wynton in the Arts section in the NYT. Said something to the effect of 'for all his knowledge, he's stuck'.

He just GAVE YOU A GIG, MOTHERFUCKER! Get over yourself and show a little CLASS, why doncha?

I believe music would be better off if these very talented but stuck-up types would dig themselves just a LITTLE...