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Were planning a recording session right before Jimi's death. I saw an interview with John Mclaughlin where he talks about taking Miles to see Hendrix. Miles stood there and said "Damn...Damn..." every time Jimi took a solo. There's a story in one of Hendrix's bios where Miles is explaining the diminished scale to Jimi, and Jimi says " Miles, I don't know what a diminished scale is... "Don't worry, I'll show you".
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11-29-2015 10:12 AM
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That sure would have been something...
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I think it would have been boring. Just swap McGlaughlin with Hendrix doing his own "thing" in the Miles context of the day.Hendrix was great at what he did, as was Miles, but, like oil and water, some things don't mix and are best left kept separate?
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Miles D. talks about this in his autobiography. He makes it clear that Hendrix was a good intuitive musician, but one who never learned to read, or to learn "correct" names for stuff. (Django R. didn't either, but he surely knew this stuff---without knowing nomenclature.)
So Miles had to demonstrate stuff, but once he did, I think Hendrix would have caught on pretty quickly. (Interesting that this was also Monk's preferred method for teaching new material....play it bar by bar, phrase by phrase, with other band members. Maybe eventually there would be a lead sheet, or written parts.)
And Hendrix was not an overnight sensation. I think he played, professionally and pretty continually from a pretty early age (17 or so), with some time out for service in the Army. I think he toured with the Isley Brothers, as a sideman, earlier in his career.
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Ever tried to show a self taught rock/blues player a simple jazz concept? Any rock player, even Hendrix, will not easily embrace a new idea and be able to run with it like a Jazz player. Miles was used to players who could quickly learn and adapt. My guess is Hendrix would have ended up (once Miles realised his limitations) trying to play his half dozen licks against whatever Miles was doing. I'm glad it didn't happen. It would have diminished both legacies, IMVHO.....
Originally Posted by goldenwave77
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Miles was all about using musicians with big ears that he could and would just throw them into situation and it was sink or swim. If they could swim they might become a band member. Miles came up in the world of cut session and you better have huge ears in order to hang or get run off the bandstand. Stories have it at Minton's where Parker and all the big names jammed after hour, even the audience would kick the ass of some cat who got up to play and didn't cut it.
I've heard the story about Hendrix and Miles and think that would of been great Jimi had the ear to hang with Miles. Now there is another part to that story that really weird to me was there was talk of McCartney playing bass. Paul's a great melodic bass player who works a lot arranging and re-arranging a song, Mile's was all about do it in one take to get the spontaneity.
If Robben Ford and Foley (strange Lead Bass player) can play with Miles Davis I can easily see Jimi fitting right in.
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Who knows what could have got out of this ? Miles and Jimi were so impredictable !
Like docbop, I don't see why Jimi couldn't have made it if Foley did later .
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Here's a guy who was my friend's dad, named Pete Cosey, who was specifically asked by Miles to play with his band to help him get that Sly Stone-Hendrix thing. Miles definitely heard him modernize Howlin Wolf and Muddy Waters' sounds, he was, along with Phil Upchurch, the house guitarists for Chess Records in the 1960s.
Forgotten Heroes: Pete Cosey | Premier Guitar
He he wound up playing with miles for 2 years, 1973-1975. Miles wanted to create a very African American sound. But Pete and the others created on Pangea, Agartha, et al was something other worldly, perhaps uncommercial even for fusion. Too bad that period of Miles is the one that's the least remembered---it was the most experimental he ever got. (makes sense-Pete was a founding member of the AACM, the Association for the Advancement of Creative Musicians.
Pete died a couple years ago, sadly. Last year, his daughter asked me if I could digitize some of her dad's cassettes (he apparently recorded everything, including his period with Miles). Unfortunately, I couldn't figure out how to hook up a cassette player so my DAW could read it.
that project did thankfully get off the ground. She hopes to have a small website up with music , so more people, not just Miles, can remember what a creative musician he was.
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I'd be interested in knowing the real Miles and Jimi story. What I heard was that Miles had a wife or girlfriend in the mid sixties that was hanging out and knew Jimi and turned Miles on to him. At some point there was talk of the two of them recording but Miles wanted 50 Gs and the record co. wasn't going for it. The story is that Jimi did go in the studio with Gil Evans and some people like Dave Holland but the results were mixed and Hendrix left realizing that he had some work to do if he wanted to play that kind of music. Supposedly he was working on it towards the end. I can hear some of that in things like Machine Gun. Didn't Miles call him a hillbilly guitar player? (He did live in Nashville for a while) Jimi famously played with some known R&B acts before he made it. Little Richard of course and Wilson Pickett for at least a minute. Also the Isley Bros. Which is where Ernie Isley got the inspiration for the solo on Who's That Lady.
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I love Cosey!!
I think it's correct the limitations would have made the sessions frustrating. Mikes would have adapted more to Miles than Jimi to Miles. And Miles, my guess, would have utilized Jimi's strengths and not his weaknesses. He was good at that. Besides Miles was more interested in expanding and learning from Hendrix.
I remember reading about Tony Williams frustration after a jam session with Jimi. He didn't have a lot if kind things to say. But I think he would have been persuaded given more time. Maybe not. This was ore his fusion Lifetime period. Pre Holdsworth, who although was an advanced player also was limited in his knowledge. He didn't know what a finished chord was called either.
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All self taught players are equal?Ever tried to show a self taught rock/blues player a simple jazz concept? Any rock player, even Hendrix, will not easily embrace a new idea and be able to run with it like a Jazz player. Miles was used to players who could quickly learn and adapt. My guess is Hendrix would have ended up (once Miles realised his limitations) trying to play his half dozen licks against whatever Miles was doing. I'm glad it didn't happen. It would have diminished both legacies, IMVHO.....
What do you know that you want to share about Jimi Hendrix's lack of ability to learn new concepts.
I would say he did an excellent job integrating roots influences with the insight and drive to take it someplace new.
He is rightfully so considered a major innovator of electric guitar.
I remember a Miles response to an interviewer asking him why he no longer played the music of the classic quintet.
He answered something along the lines that he hears music on TV commercials that sound hipper than that.
Now I love that group but it's not for me to determine what path an artist chooses to take.
Miles looked forward, not sideways or backward. Hendrix held out intrigueing potential within Miles' sense of where his music was going. I for one would enjoy hearing the outcome of this collaboration.
Success and failure is always a possibility in every musical venture.
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betty davis was miles wife..and "friend" of jimi's
no reason why jimi wouldn't have worked out..miles wasnt playing much jazz in that era anyway..mostly vamps..michael henderson was no jazzer on bass..and he was layin down the grooves...mclaughlin was copping jimi early on anyway..plus miles used sonny sharrock and the great (already mentioned) pete cosey..who were further out than jimi anyday
cheers
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I listen to things from Miles like "On The Corner" and think it really would have come down to Miles feeling Jimi's vibe and just coming up with something that would have worked. I don't anyone thinks that Hendrix would or could have sat in with Miles when he was playing bebop or been a Herbie Hancock to Miles, but Miles was FLEXIBLE and I believe had enough respect for Hendrix that he would have adapted to Jimi and the could have come up with some great stuff for at least an albums worth.
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we can speculate and guess what it would have been...but consider..Hendrix had a 4 year high before he died..the first three albums were very progressive-some of his cuts had jazz/fusion influences "rainy day" "the wind cries mary" - very tasty work on that one..yes his work was blues based..could he learn some jazz concepts and possibly "grow" or was he limited to just playing "rock blues" .. would miles be able to see potential growth in Hendrix style..or was miles limited to see potential in a musician..
would jimi be able to contribute to "bitches brew" .. would miles be able to contributes to "electric landyland"
I feel something would have evolved with their talents in the same room..would it be good..much of that depends on the listeners expectations.."super" groups at times were not so super..and just "every day" musicians sometime shine beyond the best..
I have watched some "mega" concerts when several top players are all jamming on a tune..and all their talents "blend" into a medium-cool sound with no super shine on any one star..much of the "one of the best" relies on context which the players usually have control over..Last edited by wolflen; 11-29-2015 at 06:20 PM.
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[QUOTE=bako;588804]
I remember a Miles response to an interviewer asking him why he no longer played the music of the classic quintet.
He answered something along the lines that he hears music on TV commercials that sound hipper than that.
You can't possibly be taking this statement at face value, can you?!
This is Miles talking out of both sides of his mouth again. What is he saying, then? The classic group (the '50's group with Cannonball and Coltrane) suddenly got square because why....exactly....because Miles has now "moved on" so much in his eternal artistic development?!
The man showed a persistent pattern in disparaging people...Monk couldn't play properly behind a horn (Miles)---but strangely enough, he seemed to do just fine playing to sold out houses for a yr. with Coltrane.
And then there was Coltrane, who in a sense, eclipsed Miles. So now the stuff they did together was lame... And then Bill Evans, who really didn't do all that much...oh he did some chord stuff, but he really wasn't all that significant. And Herbie Hancock who became bigger than Miles did, for a while, and this po'ed Miles off big-time....playing 2nd banana----the opening act---for a guy who used to be his piano player.
Jackie McClean couldn't be bothered to learn standard repertoire tunes...maybe it's true, maybe not. Read Miles autobiography and then count the incredible number of sidemen he went through...maybe he was very demanding, or the chemistry wasn't right, or maybe something else was the explanation.
The only person he didn't dare do this with was Dizzy, because both of them knew Dizzy could play rings around Miles without even trying. Dizzy WAS a character, but not a cross-over type of star like Miles became. But in the end Dizzy knew who he was, and he has an essential integrity to his character....and IMO he is certainly as serious a musician as Miles.
Miles D. was always searching for the next big thing....because he wanted to BE the next big thing. The line he comes up with about restless artistic search....is something I think he cooked up with the A & R people from Columbia Records. His biggest fear was to become....irrelevant. Read the final pages of his autobiography....he's practically offering to shine Prince's shoes...in the hope that Prince and he could get together for one last big shot at the stardom carousel....but Prince, to his credit, didn't bite.Last edited by goldenwave77; 11-29-2015 at 06:45 PM.
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[QUOTE=goldenwave77;588820]
The other guy Miles listened to without questioning or disrespecting was Clark Terry. When his fellow trumpet player from East St. Louis talked, Miles shut up and listened. Originally Posted by bako
I remember reading about Clark Terry's comments following "On the Corner". Clark compared the rhythmic feel of that record with The fundamental rhythmic feel and dynamic of jazz. Clark concluded that it was the difference between "jumping up-and-down in a stationary position " and " forward motion, dynamic momentum and movement ".
I dig 'on the corner', and all of Miles' 70s stuff. But what Clark was saying was not wrong either.
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[QUOTE=NSJ;588829]
Originally Posted by goldenwave77
Terry was instrumental (no pun intended) in helping Miles' early career.
Miles was also morally obligated, forever, to Terry. When Miles was a junkie, he stayed over in Terry's apt. in NYC, while Terry was out on the road. As soon as Terry left, Miles stole some of his belongings, incl. instruments and hocked them to pay for drugs. Terry returned and found out about it, and if my memory is accurate, he called Davis' father in St. Louis, and said come and get your son, he's in trouble. Eventually, but not immediately, Miles kicked his habit, and he and Terry reconciled, but acc'd to the book, Terry would always have his drinks paid for by Miles whenever the two of them ran into each other, in a club or on a bandstand---because he owed Terry in a way that could never be repaid. Because, in a way, Terry acted like a good uncle.
Look, I have no problem with Miles or anyone else trying different approaches. It is no different than Lana Del Rey trying to reinvent herself for the umpteenth time, or Rick Derringer, or Johnny Cougar.....John Cougar Mellancamp....John Mellancamp....Mellancamp.
It's just that I can't stand being fed a line.
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Somebody should put out a book: Quotations From Chairman Miles.
It can't all be taken at face value.
e.g.: Charlie Christian was the only good guitar player he ever heard.
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[QUOTE=goldenwave77;588840]
Talk about reinventing. How about a mid sixties Bobby Darin on a TV talk show calling himself Bob Darin and wearing a Levi jacket and a harmonica holder while sitting and playing an acoustic. Originally Posted by NSJ
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Miles D....complicated character...great artist...but sometimes I think he became a victim of his own search for fame and fortune.
But he did have a sense of humor....another jazz musician in New York (I forget now who it was), was asked about Miles' playing, and the guy said, "Well, he plays pretty well....for a millionaire." Miles thought that was funny, and his response shows some insight.
I'll be curious to see what this new movie shows. I think it opens in two or three weeks.
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Miles also saw the $$$ that rock musician's were bringing in. Hendrix was the highest paid act at Woodstock. $15,000 for one set. The Jazz Workshop in Boston wasn't paying that kind of money. Playing the Fillmore opening for Steve Miller wasn't cool but it opened Miles to a whole lot of record buying audience. But I also think Miles was tired of playing "Autumn Leaves" or whatever. He had done it with the best. The whole rock "scene" appealed to him but he would do it with the best... Scofield, Mike Stern, Robbin Ford, etc. Larry Coryell was very good friends with Hendrix. Jimi was open to learning jazz and Miles was open to teaching him. With the right producer/engineer it would have been interesting to say the least.
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You know I think you're right about him "playing with the best". He is VERY clear in his book about how capable he thought Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock,Tony Williams, and Ron Carter were, and he thought it hilarious...and a little ridiculous, that they were so deferential to him.
As I say, a complicated character.
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No, not at face value, I think he was exagerating for shock value in response to a kind of questionYou can't possibly be taking this statement at face value, can you?!
he had been asked probably far too many times.
I do take him at his word though that he was ready to move on for whatever his reasoning was.
The interviewer was referring to the Herbie, Wayne, Ron and Tony Quintet by the way.
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OK, I give up. His comment makes even less sense, then. See previous post (#22). Originally Posted by bako
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I think we all "re-invent" ourselves as we grow and realize at different points in our lives we are not "that person" any longer..of course being a public persona..any change is met with skepticism and cynical review..makes one wonder about those true "fans" .. people will turn on you in a nano second if you don't do what THEY want..its human nature..even Ceaser had his critics..thus the Ides of March...
In watching Miles "grow" he becomes less important and more human .. few can say "john Coltrane is in my band" yeah miles was an energy in jazz..but not the only one .. his work is respected and appreciated by many musicians and millions of jazz and all styles of music fans..
most if not all the people in his bands went on to have very successful careers..the list is long-did working with miles help their career-silly question I say
when those who are new to jazz ask..what should I listen to for a prime example of jazz..Kind of Blue is my answer...not because its miles per se..but the entire group and Wynton Kelly..and all their influences
my term for responding to any thing fast is "the davis express"...two roommate musicians are working on their careers and getting very hot...the phone rings.." yeah..ah-huh..yeah..ok I'll tell him..in an hour..ok ..bye..." who was that? .. ahh it was miles..he wants you to audition for him in an hour...hey...hey..when did you learn to fly??
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