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No Authority on Jazz or Miles but am learning a little Jazz now for " Expansion"..
I imagine Miles would have come up with some "Modal " Compositions that did not change Keys ( or Chordal Regions) as rapidly as Bebop etc. and taught Jimi -
Parent Keys etc.
Also the Pentatonic Scale is probably the Bridge between Blues, Rock, Country and Jazz....
Also you have seven notes in the Major Scale ( and it's Modes which are all enharmonic anyway hence Parent Keys) and five Notes in the Pentatonic- so two scales can cover ALL the Notes ..and you can get inside to outside ( and all points in between)really really quick this way and use Transposed Pentatonics to cover the Chromatic Tones and Altered Dominants ..I think Miles would have taught this to Jimi...
Do you really need 37 scales to play Jazz ?
I' m going to figure it out soon...lol.
Ironically in some ways - Hendrix was closer to Coltrane Sonically than most Jazz Guitarists....Last edited by Robertkoa; 11-30-2015 at 09:17 PM.
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11-30-2015 08:57 PM
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Don't over think it. The music Miles was making at the time he was courting Jim was a lot of one chord jams.
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Which is why I'm glad it never happened. I prefer Hendrix with his 3 chord jams.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Don't be ridiculous, you need at least 642. Hendrix could have learned to play Jazz, he just needed some practice on the other 641... Originally Posted by Robertkoa
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Where would the 1970s be without vamps?
PM------"in 1977, fusion music dominated, and both his sound and playing style did not fit the bill. "Most of the guitar gigs involved playing loud in a rock-oriented context and involved soloing over one chord. Even now, I am not interested in vamps. It doesn't matter if it is a John Scofield vamp or a Miles vamp or a Weather Report vamp; I know what is going to happen. Things are going to start soft and get louder and busier. It's been that way for 30 years, and I'm just not that interested"
'excellent interview BTW
https://www.berklee.edu/bt/161/coverstory.html
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used as much as user... Originally Posted by mrcee
cheers
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And then there is this from Sco'----
"The original appeared on my record Grace Under Pressure with Bill Frisell. A lot of my tunes are built that way. I start with a vamp— which in this case is that funky blues thing in the key of E—and then it goes to another section with changes in the melody. I like “Twang” because there is a pop music element to the bridge. I was sort of surprised when I wrote it because, well, I’m a jazz guy.I hope I didn’t come across as rude when I was waxing on about how you can’t explain licks and stuff like that. It’s just a pet peeve of mine. I realize that’s part of what the magazine does, but for me it’s a little too close to “jazz guitar in ten easy steps.” I won’t dumb it down because I think smart people are going to get into it for what it is, and they want to know the real deal. Jazz takes strong desire, and it requires a lot of practice. Once it’s ingrained it’s like a magic trick done with mirrors. You become fluent in a certain way that’s even greater than your own understanding of how you got there. People think fluency in jazz is a big intellectual thing, but it’s actually just a lot of work. "
From a prior question
"I know it’s difficult, but can you take a shot at describing some of the fantastic moves you make— whether they are pieces of chords, or chromatic notes—that take your playing beyond the box, but not too far out?I won’t describe them. I’m not going to oversimplify what has been my life’s work, which is to develop a vocabulary in jazz. You learn licks, phrases, and songs, and then you try to piece together what you’ve learned tastefully so that you don’t sound like you are regurgitating licks. You listen to what’s going on for inspiration, and if you trust your own mind and instinct, then you will come up with another idea. On 54, I found it easy to have something to say because there was a lot of input from the orchestra. Eventually, you realize that you’ve said enough, and then it’s time to shut up and end your solo."
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Miles playing like Wynton's idol.
Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 12-01-2015 at 12:13 AM.
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There's a tape of Jimi jamming with Roland Kirk that was released on one of his posthumous records.
It sounded a bit like something Carlos Santana would do.
RRK and Jimi were definitely going to do some things together if Jimi hadn't died when he did.
Hendrix was getting involved with some pretty interesting musicians towards the end of his life, like Arthur Lee and Bob Bruno.
Some jazz musicians completely freaked out when they heard Hendrix for the first time.
Bebop pianist Bob Harris (played with Mothers of Invention in 1971, and Ray Charles later, and married Judee Sill) gave up the piano for a while, and bought a pink Strat and tried to play like Hendrix!
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I am going to just use the Chromatic Scale for everything except leave a lot of holes....skip around a lot..♧ Originally Posted by princeplanet
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I've also read comments previously on this potential collaboration.
Something that comes to mind is Jimi's composition "3rd Stone from the Sun". Kind of sounds like an abstract modal Jazz with some blues in it, but Jimi's melodicism holds it together. I'd say if Jimi had been in a better place mentally, the Davis/Hendrix collaboration would have worked perfectly well (for the times).
I do sometimes find it ironic that the audience of the late 60's could listen enthusiatically to Hendrix's feedback "freak-outs" whilst a large part of the same audience remained indifferent to the free jazz of Coltrane of the same era.
In terms of "what-ifs?" I must admit I'm more interested in Kenny Burrell's statement that Miles asked him to play on one of his records back in the Orrin Keepnews/Riverside days.
My other thought is Miles' stated opinion that he "didn't like guitar players" (at least not until he saw the $$$ signs anyway
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That's quite ironic, given that Miles was trying to get back to a more 'black/African' groove on those records. I think that was the period when he was into James Brown, Jimi Hendrix and Sly and the Family Stone, so he was going in for those rock/funk vamp things and moving away from complex jazz solos. Hence the African ladies on the Bitches Brew cover, while On the Corner was intended to appeal to the black brothers on the 'street', hence the title, and the LP cover showing everyone wearing those outsized 70s hats. Originally Posted by Lazz
Actually I prefer Bill Laswell's remix of some of the On the Corner tracks (I think it was called Panthalassa). He really cleaned up the sound of the drums and bass (maybe he added some bass tracks, I don't really know). Whatever he did, it kicks ass compared to the original recording, which always sounded rather muddy to me.
It also has some of the best bits from Agartha/Pangaea (whatever they're called, not sure about those names!) which saved me getting those records in their entirety (I didn't fancy wading through the whole lot).
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I don't think Miles chose the sleeve notes on his LPs, some of them are awful. Isn't there a terrible one on 'Miles Smiles'? A load of pseudo-hip stuff like "what's this, cats? Miles SMILES? can you get to that?" and so on. Originally Posted by goldenwave77
He was quoted somewhere as saying he didn't want any sleeve notes, he would prefer the music spoke for itself. I suspect he must have requested this from CBS at some point, because after 'Miles Smiles' hardly any of his LPs had any sleeve notes (as far as I recall).
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I have Hendrix's 'Nine to the Universe' LP and there's quite a decent rock/vamp jam on it with Jimi and jazz organist Larry Young. The basic feel of this track would not sound too much out of place on 'Jack Johnson' or 'On the Corner' perhaps. I can easily imagine Miles coming in on trumpet on this track.
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OK, Miles went through his junkie lost years (1952-55 ?!). Bird died and bebop kind of died with it...Miles did Complete Birth of the Cool initially 3, (maybe 4) singles were released but as an album not until 4 yrs. after its recording. (I like this album, and also Gerry Mulligan's redo of it, but it was NOT a smash hit at the time.) He does some recording for Prestige and complains that Bob Weinstock is not paying him enough, but he was not exactly a popular smash. He was under contract to Prestige, and as a final contractual obligation records, I think, four final albums Workin'; Steamin' and the other two "______'n" albums (can't remember the name). Originally Posted by grahambop
Amazingly, I think these 4 were done in one or two days, as a last hurrah, because his deal with Columbia, a BIG big company is in the works already. He is a big hit at the Newport Festival playing "Round Midnight", and I can see the Columbia A & R people working with him:
"You know Miles...this stuff...ballad stuff could be really big....white people like it...but all these druggies in jazz are a bad scene--turns people off..." "Yeah, well I ain't no junkie anymore...." "Yeah, well you can't look like one either....hey let's get rid of those wide lapel gangster outfits with the flowered ties and two-toned shoes....bad image....how we can sell this?" "Yeah...you know what, give 'em what they know....get me some SHARP threads but classy-like...." "OK, meet us at Brooks Brothers tomorrow..." "Yeah, I can dig that...a brother who looks like a banker...man what a goof....I kind of like this idea...I'll be laughing up on the bandstand...."Yeah, well keep those thoughts to yourself...." "Don't worry...I won't say nothin'....little distance is a good thing....some mystery....always keep them waiting for more....yeah, I can play this role....let's give it a shot...."
Fanciful....maybe. Speculation....admittedly....From what I read about his new movie, my idea of fanciful is pretty tame compared to the speculation/surmisings set out in that piece. (He talked in the book about meeting Dexter Gordon back in the late '40's and dressing kind of gangsterish/zoot suit-y.)
The POINT is that all of this image-making required his buy-in because he was creating a persona....that he had to be able to pull off, and live out, at least on stage.
And the later decision to stop having liner notes....also a conscious choice....definite attempt to create an image. Nothing wrong with it....just like Blue Note's use of a certain photographer with black and white photos and some sepia toning....or other barely chromatic colors---a distinctive look.
As I say, I own more Miles D. albums/CD's than any other jazz artist.
It's just that when the image-creation aspect of his story, threatens to become the official version, it is worthwhile to remember that he might be playing all of us.
Myabe thinking about Miles D. is like the writing about Western cowboy heros....as they say in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance "When the truth conflicts with the myth...print the myth...its what the people want anyway."
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Miles didn't have the final say on everything. He was furious when they released 'Quiet Nights' against his wishes.
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It doesn't make Miles any less of a genius if he was crafting an image and going for commercial success from the beginning. I read somewhere that part of the plan with the second quartet was to get out of the clubs and onto concert stages. Being signed to Columbia was a big deal for an artist back then, probably still is--A combination of prestige and sales potential.
My take is that he definitely wanted to cross over into pop-funk land by the late 60's and 70's. But he did it on his terms, with musicians he picked, playing the music he wanted to, and it was always hip.
Who knows how a collaboration with Hendrix would have worked? It certainly would have been heavily promoted at the time and been a big pay day for all involved, if the timing was right. And at the time, that would have been what was important. Maybe tell Jimi that he can play all the minor pents over the same chord.
We tend to deify our heroes and think them above concerns of commerce, but that is rarely true. What separates the musical heroes from the pop stars is that our heroes can achieve commercial success while still producing substantial music.
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I read in one of the Miles Davis books that Columbia told Miles he had to go the rock route, because he wasn't selling enough records with jazz.
He went to some rock shows, and didn't like them, but Columbia said that they were going to let him go if he didn't start doing music that appealed to the hippie/hipsters of the 60s.
He learned to like it.
Most of that stuff was edited together by Teo Macero, from a bunch of studio jams.
Sometimes, there would be solos from different sessions edited together on one song!
Teo said that Miles didn't even attend any of the editing sessions.
In the McLaughlin bio, "Bathed in Lightning" JM said that his playing appeared on MD records where he wasn't even listed as part of the personnel!
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According to John Szwed's biography of Miles Davis (So What), there was in fact a planned Miles-Hendrix collaboration. They had even worked it out with the two record companies. They were to record 4 songs and the album would appear on Warner. It was also agreed that money from the album would be split 4-ways. But just before the session was to take place, Miles called Jimi and demanded that Jimi pay him an additional $100,000. Later, Jimi got another call, but instead of Miles calling back to say he was joking, it was Tony Williams demanding that he also get an extra payment of $100,000.
The source for this, iirc, was Hendrix producer Alan Douglas.
It would be interesting to read what other Davis biographies about the Miles-Hendrix project.
Szwed also writes that the tune " Mademoiselle Mabry" from Davis' Files de Kilamanjaro album was inspired by (adapted from?) Hendrix's "The Wind Calls Mary."
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[QUOTE=Stuart Elliott;590049]According to John Szwed's biography of Miles Davis (So What), there was in fact a planned Miles-Hendrix collaboration. They had even worked it out with the two record companies. They were to record 4 songs and the album would appear on Warner. It was also agreed that money from the album would be split 4-ways. But just before the session was to take place, Miles called Jimi and demanded that Jimi pay him an additional $100,000. Later, Jimi got another call, but instead of Miles calling back to say he was joking, it was Tony Williams demanding that he also get an extra payment of $100,000.
The source for this, iirc, was Hendrix producer Alan Douglas.
It would be interesting to read what other Davis biographies about the Miles-Hendrix project.
Miles' autobiography (done w/ Quincy Troupe) is kind of vague on this:
"In August 1970 I played the Isle of Wight concert in England. They were trying to do a Woodstock-like thing over there and they invited all these rock and funk groups like Jimi Hendrix, Sly and the Family Stone, and a whole bunch of white rock groups....People came from all other over the world to that concert; they said they had over 350,000 people...
Jimi Hendrix was there, too. He and I were supposed to get together in London after the concert to talk about an album we had finally decided to go together. We had come close once to doing one with the producer Alan Douglas, but the money wasn't right or we were too busy to get it together. We had played a lot with each other at my house, just jamming. We thought that maybe the time was right to do something together on a record. Now the roads were so crowded coming back into London after that concert the we couldn't get to the meeting on time, and so by the time we got into London, Jimi wasn't there. I was going to France...and then back to New York. Gil Evans called and told me that he and Jimi and I were going to get together and that he wanted me to come down and participate. I told him that I would. We were waiting for Jimi to come when we found out that he had died in London..." (Pg. 318)
Hard to tell what was really going on.
The part about Miles upping the recording fee to $100K...is maybe something Douglas or Hendrix came up with. Maybe Hendrix or Douglas couldn't push this project through to completion, and they want to put responsibility for this aborted venture on Miles. Jimi and Miles are not around to verify anything, and I'm not sure what Douglas' status is.
The part about the 2nd attempt with Gil Evans is interesting, if true.Last edited by goldenwave77; 12-03-2015 at 12:37 PM.
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Alan Douglas has a reputation of being full of crap. He has a terrible reputation. I wouldn't believe anything he says.
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Hendrix was feted in the UK as "the greatest" whatever regularly and often. Originally Posted by princeplanet
And even he thought the idea embarrassingly ludicrous and discomfitting.
His impact was nonetheless powerful - on jazzers quite as much as rockits.
Undeniable.
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I can't hear that - it sounds so intentionally white to me. Originally Posted by grahambop
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Troll.
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