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When I do my octaves and do them in a rhythmic fashion ala Wes, everyone notices (I can't do them as good as I'd want to) but that's the thing. That sound, the octaves with the dancing rhythm, that is distinctly Wes. Others had played octaves before, on guitar and piano. But no one played them quite like Wes. It wasn't just his thumb that made them unique, btw
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09-15-2015 09:26 AM
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09-15-2015, 10:17 AM #27destinytot GuestIt coincided with Elvin's 70th birthday; that night, I lead the house in a round of 'Happy Birthday'. We got the booking in May for a week in September. Yes, I was overawed. But I prepared myself to do what no-one can ever do for me - in Wes's words again, "I have to tell my story." (Wes Montgomery)
Originally Posted by Irez87
Last edited by destinytot; 09-15-2015 at 11:29 AM.
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09-15-2015, 10:24 AM #28destinytot GuestFor me, Benson's exciting but Wes is more lyrical - whereas Sean Levitt was poignant to the point of being unbearably and painfully self-expressed. It was scary. Like cante jondo. Originally Posted by Groyniad
PS Just discovered Billy Bean.Last edited by destinytot; 09-15-2015 at 11:30 AM.
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I agree with all that's been said--one of the best stylists in jazz, one of the most tasteful players.
Just for the sake of argument, though, toward the end of his career he did not put out his best stuff. The A&M recordings were extremely successful, and they are nice albums--the first Wes album I ever got was Road Song. But...all those strings...the extreme formality...It's nice but it ain't jazz.
Had he lived longer, one wonders whether he would have kept doing traditional jazz stuff or migrated toward soft rock, disco (egads), New Wave?? (Benson's career in that respect is instructive.)
The best that can be said is that his playing, straightforward as it is, transcends the arrangements. I don't think he did as much with the genre as Grant Green did with funk or George Benson did with funk and disco--essentially hijacking those genres for their own purposes and playing the heck out of them.
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I certainly think so! Joe Pass is credited with saying, "To me, there have been only three real innovators on the guitar—Wes Montgomery, Charlie Christian, and Django Reinhardt." I think those three guys remain the towering figures of jazz guitar. Originally Posted by Cunamara
I posted this on the thread about 'great jazz guitar solos'----I've never heard a jazz guitarist do anything to top this.
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Well, we'll have to disagree. While all three are certainly towering figures in jazz guitar and most of us bear their stamp to one degree or another, there are others whom I think rank with them as innovators- Pass, Hall and Metheny for three of them. Pass was the most complete jazz guitarist yet and IMHO surpasses all three of those gentlemen as a musician. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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I always thought it was Leonard Feather who insisted it was just Christian, Reinhart, and Montgomery. Guess I am wrong.
Essentially, it was Christian and everybody who came after. CC played guitar like a horn and was accepted fully as a musician by the horn guys.
kessel, Montgomery, Les Paul, Ellis, Hall, Raney, Farlow, and Pass all worked CC's fields...by their own admission.
iMO, Wes was the most exciting AND most sensitive. Most talented? Well...that's heavy company.
i think we can all agree though that Herb Alpert put serious $$$ on Wes's table by getting him to cross over. Those records are pretty, but compared to "No Blues?" Yikes. The "Half Note" album indeed smokes. The WK Trio can carry you. DEEP swing...HARD blues.
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Montgomery figured a trade secret out...people like guitar, they just don't like lots of it.
i have observed that when solos are a chorus, no more, the tips are better.
or, as Wes put it, the guy at the table on the left, cutting his steak, just wants to shout "Tequila" at the right moment.
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I never forget my band teacher in college told me the first thing, if you wanna really play jazz and really swing and play in the band - listen and learn from Wes. From there he went on a rant how he disliked guitarists in general, especially Al Di Meola, and, well, Joe Pass, saying they don't really know how to swing and it's pain to play in a band with guys who play like them. From his point of view, they couldnt swing like horn players, which was a bad thing, I guess. (Strangely enough, when I said I was listening to John Scofield, he had no problem with that!)
Looking back, I can see his point, and certainly didn't feel bad, because I found those players pretty boring to listen to. Later I discovered early Joe Pass albums with Ella, and some other stuff I liked, but not quite like Wes- he was and is in the league of his own, no doubt.
When I'm listening to Wes, I forget that I'm listening to a guitarist, the music just flows and flows, one idea leads to another, and always he made it sound so.. natural and effortless! I don't think he could play a wrong note, even if he tried, it would still sound beautiful though, because of the in-born(I don't think it's acquired) rhythm feel he had.
I can't say I feel the same in Joe Pass, for example. He was a fantastic GUITARIST, but I always sense labor somehow, like "wow, amazing chops, it sure takes a lot of practice,I wish I could play like that!" kinda impression. And I don't wanna feel like that, damn it! With Wes, it's like God was talking through him, just pure enjoyment of music itself!
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When I saw the thread title there was only one word I thought about first... confidence.A friend very kindly drew and presented me with this pencil sketch, on which she thoughtfully copied some wise words from Wes. It occurs to me that imitation of Wes shouldn't be a matter of 'mimicry'- but of 'doing what Wes did':
"The player build his confidence by working out his problems himself." (Wes Montgomery)
He has such a confidence that you're in it before you know what's going on.
When I listne to other greats - be it Kenny Burrell, Barney Kessel, Grant Green, George Benson, Jim Hall whoever... - I feel there's kind of optionality in their playing.. you sort of feel it can be done this way but can be done also in different way... I mean while listnening I still have this feeling...
With Wes - when I listen to him it's the only reality that exists.. and to me it's how the real art works
Among jazz guitarists I know - I think only Pat Metheney plays with the same uncompromising confidence... that makes whatever he plays convincing enough
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09-16-2015, 06:08 AM #36destinytot GuestA very practical observation. Originally Posted by Greentone
I think it's also a sobering thought. I wish Wes hadn't left the world, and I wonder whether - and to what degree, if any - entertaining "the guy in the table on the left" took its toll.
No doubt Wes was stoical about it, but the circumstances he described suggest sacrifice - I daresay he had more important things to do with his time.
It would be beyond sad if Wes hadn't prevailed - 'professionally' - over those circumstances, and if his efforts hadn't enabled him to provide for his family.
Wes's incredible playing, captured, becomes a commodity - which is fine, as long as his family gets a fair share of the monetary value generated by his incredible work.
I have know way of knowing the ins and outs of their situation, but what is not fine with me is the thought that the long-range value of Wes's - or anyone else's - incredible playing could cease to be translated into monetary terms - even though others actually continue to profit economically from what that incredible playing has generated.
That situation is one I now refuse to contemplate - on principle, and on any scale - with regard to any of my own creative projects. I've resolved never to make sacrifices there. I may struggle with confidence, but not for musical or technical reasons.
Wes (and a few others) inspire me to make of jazz guitar a life-long learning and growing process of experience, discovery and realization. The discipline of learning to play teaches self-awareness in such a peaceful, thoughtful and constructive way that persevering is a pleasure.
Happiness is what I cultivate and pursue through playing jazz guitar.
And happiness is what Wes's playing speaks to me. And that's why I agree with the OP that Wes was the greatest by a mile.
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Billy Bean is great, btw. Check out his stuff with John Pisano andhis stuff in The Trio. As stated, he doesn't go overboard with his solos. Everything works ands sounds like his listening. I am typin with my badhand now sry for mistakes
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Wes is the greatest by a mile or more? At what?
I like Wes. You can say Wes was great and no can ever dispute that. He wrote the book on his style.
But like everything else, Guitarists evolve. And I personally enjoy what they have evolved into.
I like some of Wes's stuff and frankly I find some of his stuff, boring. On my way home last night, I listened to him play Misty in the Wynton Kelly trio and to be honest I had to turn it off. Its just bad. Then I listened to Joe Pass and Johnny Smith play the same tune and I was amazed.
Last night, I listened to Francesco Buzzurro play Rhapsody in Blue on the Guitar, with no accompaniment. You should check it out. Its mind blowing. Yeah at times, he is straining. But not that much. He is playing every part of an arrangement that usually requires an entire orchestra.
So if you are lining up the greatest guitarists ever can you reasonably look at it like this..
1. Wes Montgomery
2-50,000. Everyone else..
No you cant. There all great. And we are blessed to be able to learn from them.
Joe D
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Yes, we can agree to disagree. For the record, Joe Pass is one of my favorite guitarists. I deeply admire him. But the way Wes could drive a band----Charlie and Django could do that too, but to my ears, that's not where Joe shines. (I think Herb Ellis outshone Joe in that department too. I think this is why the solo and duet setting suited Joe so well.) Originally Posted by Cunamara
Here's an interesting find: a YouTube channel playlist of 40 alternating performances by Wes and Joe Pass of the same tune (Cotton Tail, Work Song, The Breeze and I, 'Round Midnight, many others.)
YouTube
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
this is just the way i feel - and i think your guitar teacher was right on the money. wes - unlike any other guitar player i know - makes the instrument feel irrelevant. what he does is just as good as what the horn player does before or after him (even when that's johnny griffin for god's sake!).
and joe d - lots of people have said quite clearly what it is they think wes is the best at. otherwise there would be no point to any of this. for those of us who love wes above all other guitarists - if we want to talk about it at all (and you could just want to listen to another record of course) - the challenge is to say, as precisely as possible, what it is about his playing which makes it so wonderful. that's different from saying he's the best or the coolest etc. - its saying WHY he's the best or the coolest. (even when you're totally convinced of this it can be hard to articulate what is getting to you so much).
how did joe pass (just as an example) convince himself that playing SO MANY straight eighths was musical?
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"I like some of Wes's stuff and frankly I find some of his stuff, boring. On my way home last night, I listened to him play Misty in the Wynton Kelly trio and to be honest I had to turn it off. Its just bad"
ouch, couldn't disagree more. did you listen to the whole thing?
but I guess that's why there's vanilla and chocolate, Wes and Joe.....
love 'em both, Joe's absolutely great, but I rarely play his records anymore, Wes all the time....
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After all these years, I still love listening to Wes, but personally I'd never try to copy the sound.
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While Wes is my favorite, Joe Pass is a very close second.
We all like what we like. I like Wes Montgomery AND Joe Pass! (from what I have read, they were both in awe of each other)
That is my story and I am sticking to it. YMMV (and for most of you probably does...and that is OK)
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SS, I am sure you are beginning to know me by now. I have an opinion and I respect everyone else's too. I never think that I am right and everyone else is wrong. When I start getting into more improvisational stuff, I plan on studying Wes more closely because I love what makes him great. The "keep it simple" philosophy is a method I need to practice. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
And my Wesmo hangs proudly, next to my Johnny Smith and my Joe Pass.
JD
Wintermoon, I am sorry if I offended you or anyone else with my comments. I really didn't mean too at all. Originally Posted by wintermoon
I actually do like Wes. In fact, he is probably the one cat that I guarantee I could have meshed well with. I'd be an idiot if I didn't get why someone was great, especially if that someone was practically every Guitar player who idolizes' main influence. He is GREAT. I just think some others are greater..
Groyniad, Originally Posted by Groyniad
I think Joe played so many straight 1/8th's because they fit into the section that his MASTERFUL arrangements called for. Joe took chances, which obviously gave people an opening to criticize..
I respect your opinion. I kinda have my own. Some of you guys grew up on Wes. I grew up on George Benson, Al DiMeola and Eddie VanHalen. I am attracted to more complexity as a result.
I think Wes is Great. I just think Johnny Smith and Joe Pass are greater. Not by a mile. Only about a couple of inches..
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i was profoundly influenced by jp - i used his instructional video very extensively
i think using 8ths so heavily helps you nail the changes (if you're playing without chordal accompaniment for example) - and it can help you learn to hear the changes well too
but improvised lines need more rhythmical variety to keep up the interest.
incidentally one aspect of wes' playing i don't get are the very slow chord-melody ballads (maybe that version of misty falls into this category). they're too sweet and simple for my taste - i don't quite get what he's after (maybe its sweetness and simplicity!)
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Joe,
zero offense taken, you never said he wasn't great, just that some of his stuff bored you.
like I said different strokes.....
when I was younger, Joe was king for me, but as the years have gone by my taste has changed and I'd put Wes @ the top followed by all the rest. he just sounds so natural and organic to me, truly like a modern day Charlie Christian.
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Funny thing.. I love Joe Pass, a lot of you know that. And as amazing as his playing and technical abilities are, I get bored sometimes when I listen to him in a band setting too. He did a BossaNova album with the legendary Paulinho da Costa called Tudo Bem!. When I 1st bought it, I thought it was greatest thing I ever heard. The 2nd time I listened to it, I didn't like it at all. So I see what you are saying. However, I've NEVER had that same feeling about a Johnny Smith performance of any kind. That coupled with his mastery of the "solo performance" is what makes him my #1. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
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Joe Pass asserted on many occasions that the three most important innovators in jazz guitar were Django Reinhardt, Charlie Christian and Wes Montgomery. Innovator being defined as some one who changed everyone's idea of what the instrument was capable of and had a huge, across the board influence on how both peers and followers approached the instrument from then on.
In each case, they took what they needed from the guitarist that preceded them and from the dominant horn player at the time. In Reinhardt's case, it was Eddie Lang and Louis Armstrong. For Christian, Reinhardt and Lester Young. Montgomery drew from Christian and Charlie Parker.
Wes' influence is more amazing in that, after his initial foray into the wide world, he chose to retreat to Minneapolis to care for his family for nearly a decade before re-emerging, seemingly fully-formed like Athena from the brow of Zeus, with his concept and content completely mature.
We can all belly up to the bar, order a round and debate until sunrise but what made Wes truly great is summed up in the last sentence of Mike's post, "I have to tell my story." and in order to do that he had to be himself. He took those Charlie Christian solos and whatever he got, either verbatim or conceptually, from Parker's records and stepped onto the bandstand in those Indiana Avenue joints and wore it out every night until it morphed and evolved to became a part of who he was. A part of his DNA.
Wes was consumed with learning to play music on his chosen instrument. He was not obsessed with learning a million scales or all the theory in the world or playing at super-sonic speeds or how to hold a pick (we all know how that worked out). The lesson that we can all learn from Wes is contained in the line from The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down, "Take what you need and leave the rest".
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I hear ya. And very well put on the 8ths reasoning. See I saw that as a strength of Joe's, because I have a hard time with that.. Originally Posted by Groyniad
The version of Misty didn't include very many chord-melody chops. To me, it just sounded like he didn't prepare much for it or he just laid back.
JD
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looking at Wes Montgomery relative to his time period (and the history of jazz in its totality) reveals a lot about the position guitar plays in jazz.
something like "Smokin' at the Half Note" was absolute state-of-the-art jazz guitar. it was released in 1965.
what else was going on in jazz in 1965? Coltrane had already made "A Love Supreme." Mingus had already released "Black Saint and the Sinner Lady" and his great small group recordings. Miles Davis' second quartet was in full swing. Ornette, Andrew Hill, Sam Rivers, Cecil Taylor, Sun Ra, and plenty others were pushing things in really exciting new directions. and Eric Dolphy had been dead for a year already... that means that every thing he ever did, every album and recording and solo that sounded like jazz from the future... he did all that before "Half Note."
Wes remains my favorite straight-ahead player. Ravel said that the guitar was a "miniature orchestra." Wes seemed to take this to heart -- he turned his guitar into the Count Basie Orchestra. his time-feel was immaculate, and he's one of the few guitar players of his era that could hang with a deeply swinging rhythm section without sounding stiff (Grant Green could do that, and later guys like Benson and Metheny who were influenced by Wes would as well).
Wes advanced the guitar more than anyone after Charlie Christian, but the advancement only brought the guitar to a place that horn and piano players reached about 10 - 15 years before. his favorite drummer was Jimmy bleepin' Cobb, for heaven's sake.
that's not a criticism of Wes. he was who he was. to my ears, he never played a solo as startling or earth-shattering as someone like Sonny Rollins at their best. but he was a consummate craftsman, a guy who -- night after night, session after session -- never took a night off or laid an egg. as i get older, i appreciate those guys more and more.
but the reality is, it's easy to find guitar players who study horn and piano players. and it's obviously very easy to find horn and piano players who study other horn and piano players. but it's pretty rare to find horn and piano players who study guys like Wes.
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